a-call-for-ecuminical-dialogue-between-catholics-and-protestants

[CopticChristian]

examiner.com/article/a-call-for-ecuminical-dialogue-between-catholics-and-protestants

Okay, let’s try this. Vatican II encourages discussion and dialogue with your separated brethrens. The Pope made a remarkable ecumenical statement of:

Pope Benedict said that Martin Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone is correct if ‘faith is not opposed to charity.’ The Pope said this during a general audience in a speech on St Paul’s teaching on justification. (Vatican, November 2008 - link)

Let’s try again to have a mutual respectful discussion about our similarities and differences for the purpose of positive movement toward Christian unity. I don’t think Catholic or Protestant apologetics impresses anyone on this site; therefore, let’s all try to refrain from posting apologetics which shuts down open and honest discussions. Instead, let’s have an honest respect discussion between Christian siblings who have the same Heavenly Father.

CU,

You may want to take your own advice. You have started two posts I know of, Forensic Justification and Sovereingty of God and in each you post and teach/defend Calvinism. I am not impressed with Cavlinist apologetics.

What is it you mean by dialogue?

What questions do you want answered, this is Catholic Answers Forum?

 

[CopticChristian]

Let’s just keep this an open thread to discuss anything that you would like. First of all, we are all siblings in Christ who have the same Heavenly Father. Would you agree with that statement?

CU,

I am not going to agree.

I want to know from you, since you want dialogue, how is it you believe that you are a child of God with the same heavenly Father. When was it you became a child of God and designated God as Father? Your response will dictate my response.

 

[CopticChristian]

I agree prayer is so significant. ** I think the sign of the cross is probably very historical which is very cool too. **Sometimes, certain Protestant groups just throw out our historical roots as Christians which is an embarrassment because God has been saving sinners for a very long time for His own glory. Heck, the Sacred Scriptures is His redemptive history book in which we are privileged to be part of. I’ve discussed the issue on Mary at a Christian Fellowship site consisting of both Catholics and Protestants alike. As being Protestant, I just disagree agreeable on the issue on Mary. I think many Protestants tend to have too low of view of Mary (me included), but I hope you can understand why some Protestants have difficulties when some Catholics put Mary over and above official Catholic doctrine. I believe Mary as co-redemptive with Christ is not official Catholic dogma, right? Therefore, views on Mary vary per individual Catholics, maybe?

Yep, Protestantism has issues and problems, but what church circles do not have challenges and issues? As you are very aware of, Protestantism is very broad and diverse… so I would say many historic orthodox Protestants have more in common with orthodox Catholics then some of the more unorthodox modern day Protestant circles. I think Protestant circles get in trouble when they throw out historic creeds and confessionals. I also believe many Protestants disregard church history when trying to understand Scripture which is a big problem. There appears to be rampant “proof texting” practice too in certain Protestant circles.

CU,

Based on the Catechism of the USA, all dialogue is evangelical and an opportunity to encounter the living God…Prayer…

It has been my experience that Protestants tend to be Christocentric…

Catholic teaching is Trinitarian…where Jesus is there is the Spirit…Where the Spirit is there is Jesus…

I suggest you attend a mass and listen…for the following…

Father…all prayer and worship is to the Father…

All prayer and worship is through the Son

All prayer and worship is in the unity of the Holy Spirit

and thus you will hear supplication/thanksgiving to the Father, through the Son in the unity of the Holy Spirit…for while you say we worship the same God…we worship the Trinity in its fullness always…

The next time you listen or pray and you hear anyone conclude with “in Jesus Name” I ask you to consider adding…“to the Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit:” as a reminder to yourself and others that we worship the Trinity…not Christ alone.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Originally Posted by Christian Unity:

Let’s just keep this an open thread to discuss anything that you would like. First of all, we are all siblings in Christ who have the same Heavenly Father. Would you agree with that statement?

CU,

I am not going to agree.

I want to know from you, since you want dialogue, how is it you believe that you are a child of God with the same heavenly Father. When was it you became a child of God and designated God as Father? Your response will dictate my response.

Because the CCC (Catholic Church official doctrine) considers Protestants baptized in the Triune formula as seperated siblings in Christ. I could give you a biblical response, but I think the CCC reference works better here.

 

[Anthony_V]

Originally Posted by Christian Unity:

Let’s just keep this an open thread to discuss anything that you would like. First of all, we are all siblings in Christ who have the same Heavenly Father. Would you agree with that statement?

Because the CCC (Catholic Church official doctrine) considers Protestants baptized in the Triune formula as separated siblings in Christ. I could give you a biblical response, but I think the CCC reference works better here.

FYI, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is part of the mystagogy and pedagogy of the Church, not necessarily a list of dogmatic principles. The Roman Catholic Church is known for being very legal, but we do not have an official list of dogma. In a catholic nature, yes, Protestants are brethren. But in a Catholic nature, we are separated.

Protestants (with the exception of “Anglo-Catholics”) do not see this distinction because there is no acknowledgment that the Eucharist draws men into a mystical Communion, which is properly Catholic; and that this Eucharistic Faith is what makes the Church indeed Catholic.

To Catholics, there is a difference between 1 Corinthians 10:16-17 and 12:12-13. Initiation into the Church includes Baptism, Holy Communion, and Confirmation/Chrismation (Acts 2:1-6). Note how each of these things mystically draws them into unity. The Catholic Church is properly Catholic because it fully participates in the life of Christ in Faith. A Catholic is Catholic because he or she fully participates in the life of Christ in Faith.

I don’t feel like that answer is a home run, but it’ll have to do for today. Expect a better answer tomorrow.

 

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by Christian Unity:

Let’s just keep this an open thread to discuss anything that you would like. First of all, we are all siblings in Christ who have the same Heavenly Father. Would you agree with that statement?

Because the CCC (Catholic Church official doctrine) considers Protestants baptized in the Triune formula as seperated siblings in Christ. I could give you a biblical response, but I think the CCC reference works better here.

CU,

I posted this for you on the site you started “Soveriengty of God” and you do see that Guanaphore is pointing out why Reformed Theology is not consistent. I remind you that based on the USA Catechism…Ecumenism is Dialogue and Dialogue is by virtue of Truth evangelical. Catholics are obligated in dialogue to identify truths that are true and truths that are not always true or error…it is not standing around holding hands, having warm fuzzy feelings that we just think and believe differently. The reasons for those differences and errors must be pointed out.

I asked you

I want to know from you, since you want dialogue, how is it you believe that you are a child of God with the same heavenly Father. When was it you became a child of God and designated God as Father? Your response will dictate my response.

You directed me to the Catechism…you are not Catholic and hold different beliefs. I cannot dialogue with you ecumenically as described without understanding the difference.

Please answer the question…or have you spent too much time playing poker?

Maybe you are reading Moby Dick or have you read this?

Ecumenism includes efforts to pray together, joint study of the Scripture and of one another’s traditions, common action for social justice, and dialogue in which the leaders and theologians of the different churches and communities discuss in depth their doctrinal and theological positions for greater mutual understand¬ing, and “to work for unity in truth” (UUS, nos. 18, 29).

Dialogue is a form of evangelization. It is a way of making Christ and his Gospel known to others, while at the same time respecting their freedom of conscience and adherence to their own religious tradition. The Church has received from Christ the mandate to make him known to all people.

 

[guanophore]

examiner.com/article/a-call-for-ecuminical-dialogue-between-catholics-and-protestants

Okay, let’s try this. Vatican II encourages discussion and dialogue with your separated brethrens. The Pope made a remarkable ecumenical statement of:

Pope Benedict said that Martin Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone is correct if ‘faith is not opposed to charity.’ The Pope said this during a general audience in a speech on St Paul’s teaching on justification. (Vatican, November 2008 - link)

Let’s try again to have a mutual respectful discussion about our similarities and differences for the purpose of positive movement toward Christian unity. I don’t think Catholic or Protestant apologetics impresses anyone on this site; therefore, let’s all try to refrain from posting apologetics which shuts down open and honest discussions. Instead, let’s have an honest respect discussion between Christian siblings who have the same Heavenly Father.

Perhaps you have a diffferent understanding of Apologetics than we do. You have entered an Apologetics site, and you are posting in a Catholic Apologetics forum. CAF is here to provide “Catholic Answers”. There are no subforums on this site where you cannot expect to get Catholic Answers. Our understanding of Apologetics comes from the Early Fathers, and Scripture, which says:

1 Peter 3:15-17
Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

Apologetics in this tone NEVER “shuts down” discussion. Furthermore, you can speak for yourself, but I have been impressed with a great many apologists on this site, including those of my separated brethren. Apologetics need not be dishonest or disrespectful. Neither to efforts toward ecumenism embrace errors.

 

[guanophore]

when all christians have the same Father -in fact all of humanity- it is imprudent that self-righteous persons on this site, should consider themselves alone as God’s children, while maligning devotees of other religions; it follows that salvation is not restricted to any one faith!
this intolerance or arrogance is what makes religion the bane of humanity!

Christians will embrace the New Testament on this point:

Acts 4:10-12
10 be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of **Jesus Christ **of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him this man is standing before you well. 11 This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner. 12 **And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." **

This is not inolerance or arrogance, but a simple statement of fact from our point of view.

 

[guanophore]

Protestants vary in views regarding sacraments as a means of grace. I would say that Calvinist Presbyterians according to the Westminster Confession of Faith would believe the two Protestant sacraments are a means of sanctifying grace when received in faith.

What do you mean by “sanctifying grace”?

I do believe Catholics believe that sacramental grace needs to be received in faith too with the exception of infant baptism.

No, infant baptism is not an exception. The Church baptizes infants based upon their parents profession of faith, just as Jesus was circumcised based on His parents faith.

However, this ecumenical dialogue is for those who hold to Christian orthodoxy as defined within the Apostle’s Creed and Nicene Creed.

This does become a challenge, especially since the Reformers redefined some of the language contained in the Creeds, so that when they profess them, they do not express the same faith or meaning as those who composed them.

That quote came from a Catholic website. Here is the link:

Linking to anti-Catholic websites is against the forum rules, CU. I wonder if you knew what you were doing? Could this be an instance of an insidious proselytizing, or were you sloppy with your research, and really believed this was a Catholic site? Regardless, in the future I suggest you use official Catholic documents so that you will be in compliance with the forum rules. Otherwise, it will just appear as though you are really proselytizing under the guise of “ecumenical discussion”.

 

[CopticChristian]

What do you mean by “sanctifying grace”?

No, infant baptism is not an exception. The Church baptizes infants based upon their parents profession of faith, just as Jesus was circumcised based on His parents faith.

This does become a challenge, especially since the Reformers redefined some of the language contained in the Creeds, so that when they profess them, they do not express the same faith or meaning as those who composed them.

Linking to anti-Catholic websites is against the forum rules, CU. I wonder if you knew what you were doing? Could this be an instance of an insidious proselytizing, or were you sloppy with your research, and really believed this was a Catholic site? Regardless, in the future I suggest you use official Catholic documents so that you will be in compliance with the forum rules. Otherwise, it will just appear as though you are really proselytizing under the guise of “ecumenical discussion”.

My dear Oblate,

I have been granted privelege to view and discuss with CU. It is my belief that CU honestly has no intent to proselytize. We are a product of our experiences. CU appears to have been on other sites and has been welcomed into our home of discussion. It is not uncommon for guests not to know…

Take your shoes off please
We don’t sit there, we sit here
That door is locked

and other peculariarities relative to our home. I see that with your guidance and my humble attempts to cause reflection in the mind of CU that there is hopefully an understanding of past experience that is not relative to this experience. CU, I believe will do more due dilligence and investigate. These postings with links indicate that CU may not be doing adequate reflection, satisfactory investigation and in my opinion based on what I read indicates that much of what CU thinks and believes as seen in posting is a product of, forgive me, mental Sloth. I am sure with the present direction you have provided and hopefully with dialogue from the faithful, with due respect, I include myself as the least of those that are capable of dialogue…I would hope that with grace through Faith and the love of God CU will understand and change direction.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Linking to anti-Catholic websites is against the forum rules, CU. I wonder if you knew what you were doing? Could this be an instance of an insidious proselytizing, or were you sloppy with your research, and really believed this was a Catholic site? Regardless, in the future I suggest you use official Catholic documents so that you will be in compliance with the forum rules. Otherwise, it will just appear as though you are really proselytizing under the guise of “ecumenical discussion”.

I guess you are going to have to define what you consider an anti-Catholic website. Protestant sites are anti-Catholic by the definition of the word protestant. As a Reformed Christian adhering to the Westminster Confession of Faith, it has anti-Catholic language in it. When I was nominated as an elder in a confessional Reformed church, you were able to take exceptions to some of the language and views expressed in the Westminster of Faith including all that anti-Catholic language to serve as an elder. You have to remember, those documents including the Council of Trent were written in times contrary to today. Are you saying I cannot link to articles from Monergism.com or reformed.org? This is the non-Catholic Religions section which is about comparing and contrasting beliefs. If you still question my motive, I welcome you to review conversations on Christian Fellowship of Facebook where Catholics and Protestants discuss, debate, and fellowship together as one in Christ. It’s not easy, but it’s a worthy task. I do need the on-going help of Catholic Answers to continue my education about the Catholic Faith.

 

[PRmerger]

I guess you are going to have to define what you consider an anti-Catholic website.

That’s pretty easy to define: any website that is hostile to Catholicism. Specifically, Catholicism needs to be mentioned (or alluded to clearly).

As a Reformed Christian adhering to the Westminster Confession of Faith, it has anti-Catholic language in it.

Can you point us to this anti-Catholic language in the WCF?

 

[Christian_Unity]

That’s pretty easy to define: any website that is hostile to Catholicism. Specifically, Catholicism needs to be mentioned (or alluded to clearly).

Can you point us to this anti-Catholic language in the WCF?

I’m sure Scott Hahn could find it for you since he used to adhere to the Westminster Confession of Faith. I’m not sure what I can or cannot link at this point. Or you can Google Westminster Confession of Faith and read through it. From my understanding, anything that does not have a seal of approval from the Vatican can be hostile to the official Catholic Faith.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m sure Scott Hahn could find it for you since he used to adhere to the Westminster Confession of Faith.

The anti-Catholic language in the WCF? I’ve never heard him say any such thing!

Since you’re “sure” that he could find it, could you please cite your source where Dr. Hahn ascribed anti-Catholic language to the WCF? Thanks.

I’m not sure what I can or cannot link at this point.

You cannot link us to anti-Catholic sites.

Or you can Google Westminster Confession of Faith and read through it.

I haven’t read anything in the WCF that’s anti-Catholic. That’s your assertion, so since you are proclaiming that it is, please cut and paste those statements from the WCF that you believe to be anti-Catholic.

From my understanding, anything that does not have a seal of approval from the Vatican can be hostile to the official Catholic Faith.

This is another statement borne out of ignorance. There is no such thing as a seal from the Vatican regarding non-Catholic websites.

 

[Anthony_V]

To me, views that respectfully and rationally attempt to challenge the Catholic faith are not “anti-Catholic”. Hateful or derogatory speech, whether it surrounds a logical premise or not, etc., is another thing. But as to the prior, I would in fact think it useful to having the points of contention being clearly presented without us having to individually deduce it. We’re all adults here, and we can forego emotional drive to take rational criticism.

However, with respect to the less informed Catholic users on here it would be better to simply quote passages from a website without giving it. If an individual piece of work is asked to be cited, then that can be done on a case-by-case basis. Therefore, we are dealing strictly with ideas and not websites. At least, this is my understanding of the rules.

 

[PRmerger]

To me, views that respectfully and rationally attempt to challenge the Catholic faith are not “anti-Catholic”. Hateful or derogatory speech, whether it surrounds a logical premise or not, etc., is another thing. But as to the prior, I would in fact think it useful to having the points of contention being clearly presented without us having to individually deduce it. We’re all adults here, and we can forego emotional drive to take rational criticism.

However, with respect to the less informed Catholic users on here it would be better to simply quote passages from a website without giving it. If an individual piece of work is asked to be cited, then that can be done on a case-by-case basis. Therefore, we are dealing strictly with ideas and not websites. At least, this is my understanding of the rules.

Yes. Amen. Indeed. All of the above.

 

[JonNC]

FYI, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is part of the mystagogy and pedagogy of the Church, not necessarily a list of dogmatic principles. The Roman Catholic Church is known for being very legal, but we do not have an official list of dogma. In a catholic nature, yes, Protestants are brethren. But in a Catholic nature, we are separated.

**Protestants (with the exception of “Anglo-Catholics”) do not see this distinction because there is no acknowledgment that the Eucharist draws men into a mystical Communion, which is properly Catholic; and that this Eucharistic Faith is what makes the Church indeed Catholic. **
To Catholics, there is a difference between 1 Corinthians 10:16-17 and 12:12-13. Initiation into the Church includes Baptism, Holy Communion, and Confirmation/Chrismation (Acts 2:1-6). Note how each of these things mystically draws them into unity. The Catholic Church is properly Catholic because it fully participates in the life of Christ in Faith. A Catholic is Catholic because he or she fully participates in the life of Christ in Faith.

I don’t feel like that answer is a home run, but it’ll have to do for today. Expect a better answer tomorrow.

Anthony,
Don’t forget us. Following is a typical “Preface” in our Service (Liturgy) of the Sacrament;

• It is truly good, right and salutary that we should at all times and in all places give thanks to you, holy Lord, almighty Father, everlasting, who in the multitude of your saints did surround us with so great a cloud of witnesses that we, rejoicing in their fellowship, may run with patience the race that is set before us and, together with them, may receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. Therefore with angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven we laud and magnify your glorious name, evermore praising you and saying:*
  (Follows is the Sanctus)

Jon

 

[Anthony_V]

Anthony,
Don’t forget us. Following is a typical “Preface” in our Service (Liturgy) of the Sacrament;

• It is truly good, right and salutary that we should at all times and in all places give thanks to you, holy Lord, almighty Father, everlasting, who in the multitude of your saints did surround us with so great a cloud of witnesses that we, rejoicing in their fellowship, may run with patience the race that is set before us and, together with them, may receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. Therefore with angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven we laud and magnify your glorious name, evermore praising you and saying:*
  (Follows is the Sanctus)

Jon

I was hesitant to add orthodox Lutherans because of our differences in the understanding of the Communion of Saints. I understand there is some saint veneration by a few within your specific tradition (I’ve heard Luther had a devotion to Our Lady), but I do not understand how that works within your system of theology.

 

[Christian_Unity]

The anti-Catholic language in the WCF? I’ve never heard him say any such thing!

Since you’re “sure” that he could find it, could you please cite your source where Dr. Hahn ascribed anti-Catholic language to the WCF? Thanks.

You cannot link us to anti-Catholic sites.

I haven’t read anything in the WCF that’s anti-Catholic. That’s your assertion, so since you are proclaiming that it is, please cut and paste those statements from the WCF that you believe to be anti-Catholic.

This is another statement borne out of ignorance. There is no such thing as a seal from the Vatican regarding non-Catholic websites.

There is some kind of seal (generic word) to the CCC from the Vatican. I never said that there is that same seal on websites. I can send you the anti-Catholic language from the WCF to your private message system if you want to. Believe me, I do not want to get kicked off this site.

 

[Christian_Unity]

There is some kind of seal (generic word) to the CCC from the Vatican. I never said that there is that same seal on websites. I can send you the anti-Catholic language from the WCF to your private message system if you want to. Believe me, I do not want to get kicked off this site.

Here is a safe site with some anti-Catholic statements from the WCF. It does not have some of the more offensive anti-Catholic language in the WCF in the article. There are revised versions of the WCF which removes some of this language.

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Protestant_Confessions_of_Faith