A Call for Liturgical Renewal--The Liturgical Effectiveness of Pews

[5Loaves]

Fr. Hernandez, St. Basil’s ECC, posted this link on his Facebook. We can always count on St. Elias in Brampton for good stuff. :clapping: Read the whole thing.

A Call for Liturgical Renewal–The Liturgical Effectiveness of Pews

…Whether we want to believe it or whether we don’t, pews (or rows of chairs) influence the way we think about the Church. Pews mold the way we think about the Liturgy itself. Pews affect the way we think about ourselves as Orthodox Christian lay people. Pews directly influence our spirituality and our behavior. The use of pews is shaping the future of Orthodoxy in North America. …

Pews? We ain’t got no pews. We don’t need no stinking pews!

 

[Little_Boy_Lost]

I dug it. Do you find it common for parishes to adopt a middle ground of using foldout or movable chairs?

 

[Jim_Roberts]

Fr. Hernandez, St. Basil’s ECC, posted this link on his Facebook. We can always count on St. Elias in Brampton for good stuff. :clapping: Read the whole thing.
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I do not comprehend what you are affirming about the pews in the CHurch. In essence, are you proverbing that you do not want pews in your church?
Could you expound on this in further particulars?

 

[5Loaves]

I dug it. Do you find it common for parishes to adopt a middle ground of using foldout or movable chairs?

I haven’t seen such a middle ground. I haven’t been to lots of temples so I’m not the best one to answer that. The only middle ground I recall experiencing is at St. Lawrence in Felton. (If you even go to visit Santa Cruz you might pay them a visit. Nice folks.) As you can see from their lovely 360 degree view of the temple there are folding chairs to the north and south, and a bench along the back/west wall. The center is open. My two visits there the standing area was packed. The two local Melkite parishes I have visited, maybe one is yours, seemed to be that there was limited standing and that space was used by those who arrived too late to get a seat.

 

[5Loaves]

In essence, are you proverbing that you do not want pews in your church?

My church doesn’t have pews. Nor do the Russian Orthodox parishes I go to. But other EC parishes here do as do the Greek Orthodox I sometimes go to. I believe the church Fr. Hernandez is in has pews so maybe his posting this article bodes well for at least the “middle ground” Little Boy Lost asked about coming to Fr. H’s parish.

Could you expound on this in further particulars?

I think the article addresses it well.
For those who don’t want to read the whole thing the final paragraph sums it up:

We’re not calling for fanatic “pewoclasm.” Liturgical renewal must not be divorced from loving pastoral concern. But we do need to face it: the use of pews and rows of chairs in our churches is a liturgical distortion which powerfully distorts our self-understanding as Orthodox Christians. We need renewal in the Orthodox teaching that we come to church not to be entertained but to work, to do together the Work of the People, the Holy Liturgy. Perhaps we could begin that renewal by removing several front rows of pews, inviting the faithful to stand before the iconostasis from the Great Entrance through Communion. Then let us progress back as fast as is pastorally feasible to the traditional practice of having seats only around the periphery of the church interior for the elderly, the infirm, for mothers with babies, for the weak and for the tired. That practice is not “merely traditional.” It expresses a vital and fundamental aspect of Orthodox liturgical teaching.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hard to really take the pews out for those who have it. First is the cultural thing. Pews are pretty much standard issue in Christian churches here in North America. Second, like in our parishes, most of those who still attend are old. I mean the other parish I attend for the summer has 80% over the retirement age. Good luck asking them to stand up for the entire Liturgy.

I do hope for a middle ground though. Like our Cathedral is large enough, if they can take the shorter pews on the sides and push the longer pews to the side. Now we have space in the middle for those who wish to stand, also enough space around for prostrations during Lent. And for those who still want to use the pew, they can stay at the sides. Priorities are old people and those with small children. I’d be the first one to stand there and hopefully others will follow.

 

[ciero]

Hard to really take the pews out for those who have it. First is the cultural thing. Pews are pretty much standard issue in Christian churches here in North America. Second, like in our parishes, most of those who still attend are old. I mean the other parish I attend for the summer has 80% over the retirement age. Good luck asking them to stand up for the entire Liturgy.

I do hope for a middle ground though. Like our Cathedral is large enough, if they can take the shorter pews on the sides and push the longer pews to the side. Now we have space in the middle for those who wish to stand, also enough space around for prostrations during Lent. And for those who still want to use the pew, they can stay at the sides. Priorities are old people and those with small children. I’d be the first one to stand there and hopefully others will follow.

We always tend to pull out the OLD card when referring to pews…In my experience in the old countries…it is the OLD folks who would NEVER sit down…the benches along the walls or choir stalls are for the YOUNG…it is interesting how we here in North America tend to turn things around.

 

[ConstantineTG]

We always tend to pull out the OLD card when referring to pews…In my experience in the old countries…it is the OLD folks who would NEVER sit down…the benches along the walls or choir stalls are for the YOUNG…it is interesting how we here in North America tend to turn things around.

Its what they have had for the last little while, so what can we do about them? If you look at the videos of St. Elias, their parishioners are mostly young. In our parishes, oftentimes there are no parishioners who are younger than me and my wife, besides our child.

 

[Little_Boy_Lost]

In our parish (A melkite one) we’ve done what some parishes have opted for and that’s using foldout or movable chairs. While not ideal, it does allow the chairs to be moved or taken away during high feasts and processions, or during lent, when one would find making the frequent prostrations rather difficult in a pewed out church.

 

[ciero]

Its what they have had for the last little while, so what can we do about them? If you look at the videos of St. Elias, their parishioners are mostly young. In our parishes, oftentimes there are no parishioners who are younger than me and my wife, besides our child.

What I’m trying to say is…it is usually the young folks who use the pews , not the old folks…and the young folks who say we need the pews for the old folks.

Even in churches without pews there are chairs, benches or stalls along the walls for those who need them.

Worshiping in a pewless church is a TOTALLY different experience then being in one with pews.

 

[ConstantineTG]

What I’m trying to say is…it is usually the young folks who use the pews , not the old folks…and the young folks who say we need the pews for the old folks.

Even in churches without pews there are chairs, benches or stalls along the walls for those who need them.

Worshiping in a pewless church is a TOTALLY different experience then being in one with pews.

My point was that these folks who have been part of this Church for a while sees this as part of their Church, it is their tradition even though its only been around for less than a century. In fact in Lent when we started to move the proper Lenten hymns into the proper services and keep the Divine Liturgy more joyful because its still a Sunday and it still should celebrate Easter, there are those who are looking for their “traditional Lenten hymns”. Someone replied that they should attend the Presanctified Liturgy to hear those Lenten hymns. That person wasn’t all too happy with this “change” (where in fact its just going back to the way it should be).

I agree with your points ciero, but how do you really return to authentic Eastern spirituality when your parishioners like the older people are those who grew up in this East-West mix of spirituality and worship as a result of the underground Church in Ukraine?

 

[ciero]

My point was that these folks who have been part of this Church for a while sees this as part of their Church, it is their tradition even though its only been around for less than a century. In fact in Lent when we started to move the proper Lenten hymns into the proper services and keep the Divine Liturgy more joyful because its still a Sunday and it still should celebrate Easter, there are those who are looking for their “traditional Lenten hymns”. Someone replied that they should attend the Presanctified Liturgy to hear those Lenten hymns. That person wasn’t all too happy with this “change” (where in fact its just going back to the way it should be).

I agree with your points ciero, but how do you really return to authentic Eastern spirituality when your parishioners like the older people are those who grew up in this East-West mix of spirituality and worship as a result of the underground Church in Ukraine?

Change is always hard Constantine…but if we continue to water down our faith and traditions to accommodate the everyone our churches will be dead soon. If those folks prefer a Latinized Liturgy just let them go to the Latins.

People must be taught why the changes are being made, while going ahead and reclaiming our traditions.

I have heard it said many times the church of the future will be much smaller, but also much more fervent.

 

[Hesychios]

In our parish (A melkite one) we’ve done what some parishes have opted for and that’s using foldout or movable chairs. While not ideal, it does allow the chairs to be moved or taken away during high feasts and processions, or during lent, when one would find making the frequent prostrations rather difficult in a pewed out church.

Sounds reasonable …

 

[ConstantineTG]

Change is always hard Constantine…but if we continue to water down our faith and traditions to accommodate the everyone our churches will be dead soon. If those folks prefer a Latinized Liturgy just let them go to the Latins.

People must be taught why the changes are being made, while going ahead and reclaiming our traditions.

I have heard it said many times the church of the future will be much smaller, but also much more fervent.

Its not about accommodation. Latinizations came in for a reason and for a time it was justified given the situation. But now how do you back out of it that people have accepted it, and people have been born into the situation?

Its easy to say that these people just go to the RC Church. But that would mean the death of a particular Eastern Church here in North America, is that what we really want?

 

[ciero]

Its not about accommodation. Latinizations came in for a reason and for a time it was justified given the situation. But now how do you back out of it that people have accepted it, and people have been born into the situation?

Its easy to say that these people just go to the RC Church. But that would mean the death of a particular Eastern Church here in North America, is that what we really want?

I have seen parish after parish embrace the dropping of Latinizations…what it takes is a committed priest and EDUCATION< EDUCATION and some more EDUCATION!!!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Its not about accommodation. Latinizations came in for a reason and for a time it was justified given the situation. But now how do you back out of it that people have accepted it, and people have been born into the situation?

Its easy to say that these people just go to the RC Church. But that would mean the death of a particular Eastern Church here in North America, is that what we really want?

And here is something I know Ciero will agree with me on.

Latinizations were never justified.

 

[ciero]

And here is something I know Ciero will agree with me on.

Latinizations were never justified.

It is nice to agree on something!

 

[Cecilianus]

The Russian Orthodox in town don’t have pews. I don’t see why we always get so shocked when someone brings up the idea.

 

[Halyna]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME???
Of all the Glories of God that can be spoken of here, there’s a topic on Pews?

In the old country, not only were there not any pews, but the Liturgy was offered up any where possible: in a field, in a barn, in someone’s home and in fear of being discovered by the Communists.

Before Communism, there were no pews in the larger cities because the churches were so pack with FAITHFUL people that they were literally crammed in shoulder-to-shoulder.

During Consecration, do you kneel with respect for the Lord, or do you prop your backside up against the pew to comfort your body?

Pews are a ‘western’ or ‘modern’ thing. It depends on what you are doing with it. We sit during the sermon. Do you sit back in your pew & fall asleep or do you position your body in a way that you can concentrate on every word in that sermon?

Oh 'cmon now! I fear that in the near future we will revert back to secret Liturgy in the homes or the fields. Where are the truly faithful?

TRUE STORY: In Western Ukraine during the war, there was a family who risked all to have clandestine Liturgy celebrated in their village home. Soviet soldiers charged the home, one told the people “We know what you are doing here, I’m giving you this one chance to save your life and leave”. 3 people left. He said again: One chance to save your life. Leave or we will kill you all. Nobody else left. He dismissed his other soldiers. He then said, now I know I can trust you because you are willing to die for your faith. May I attend your Liturgy?

 

[Cecilianus]

During Consecration, do you kneel with respect for the Lord, or do you prop your backside up against the pew to comfort your body?

During Consecration, I bow, and then make three minor prostrations during the Epiklesis. I do not kneel because it is forbidden to kneel on Sundays, by the canons of the Quinisext Council binding on all Eastern Christians.