A case for an upper-world

[Robert_Sock]

Imagine making a journey through the African jungle and coming upon a primitive tribe of people. Imagine this tribe not knowing anything about electricity or running water, never mind the “modern” world. Now imagine telling them about the existence of technology such as television, computers, cameras, telephones, medicine, and large cities. Would you expect them to grasp the meaning and implications of what you were telling them? Would you expect intelligent people living just a few hundred years ago to believe this stuff? Well then, might it also be presumptuous for us to assume that intelligence begins and ends with us simply because we do not yet understand God? Is it not wiser to at least consider the possibility that we too are primitive, and that a more intelligent world may really exist – such as a spiritual world that contains the living souls of our ancestors? Given the ease that we are able to save vast amounts of programming and data on our home computer, is it really that difficult to imagine that God can somehow save our souls into the Hereafter?

Next, ask yourself if you have the wit to figure-out how to manufacture a simple box of toothpicks? Do you think a group of otherwise “brilliant” professors, but all who lack any knowledge in mechanical design and manufacturing, could figure this out entirely on their own? How many trials and errors would it take any of us before we discovered an efficient method? Now ask yourself who among us has the innate wit to develop the techniques to: make a pencil or pen; create a light bulb; design and manufacture each and every component of a television set; devise a complete cellular telephone system; produce from raw material every type of item found within a modern city! Yes, there being six billion people explains why we are able to produce so much worthless junk, but was there ever a sufficient amount of natural wit within the human species for us to have brought our world to where it is at today? Indeed, is there any wit within us that was not God given?

Take a close look around, surely there must exist a God (and, of course, a powerful and deceitful evil spirit as well) that instructs, guides, and connects us! How else could six billion people, each with their own independent “freewill,” possibly maintain their existence? How else could our “modern” world ever have come about – over such a short period of time?

It is not the reality of God or the Hereafter that we should doubt, but our perceptions as to the reality of our world and our own self!

 

[colmcille1]

Hi Robert,
May I congratulate you on a finely-constructed post!
I read it as one would read the preamble to a lively dissertation on God and Man: full of delightful expectation.
Not only do I find your argument compelling, I am drawn to your compositional skills.
(As I posted to Elizabeth502 yesterday, I like to comment upon posts which, for me, stand out from the crowd, as it were.)
Given your background, can we expect said dissertation anytime soon?!
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[R_Daneel]

Imagine making a journey through the African jungle and coming upon a primitive tribe of people. Imagine this tribe not knowing anything about electricity or running water, never mind the “modern” world. Now imagine telling them about the existence of technology such as television, computers, cameras, telephones, medicine, and large cities. Would you expect them to grasp the meaning and implications of what you were telling them? Would you expect intelligent people living just a few hundred years ago to believe this stuff? Well then, might it also be presumptuous for us to assume that intelligence begins and ends with us simply because we do not yet understand God? Is it not wiser to at least consider the possibility that we too are primitive, and that a more intelligent world may really exist – such as a spiritual world that contains the living souls of our ancestors? Given the ease that we are able to save vast amounts of programming and data on our home computer, is it really that difficult to imagine that God can somehow save our souls into the Hereafter?

Next, ask yourself if you have the wit to figure-out how to manufacture a simple box of toothpicks? Do you think a group of otherwise “brilliant” professors, but all who lack any knowledge in mechanical design and manufacturing, could figure this out entirely on their own? How many trials and errors would it take any of us before we discovered an efficient method? Now ask yourself who among us has the innate wit to develop the techniques to: make a pencil or pen; create a light bulb; design and manufacture each and every component of a television set; devise a complete cellular telephone system; produce from raw material every type of item found within a modern city! Yes, there being six billion people explains why we are able to produce so much worthless junk, but was there ever a sufficient amount of natural wit within the human species for us to have brought our world to where it is at today? Indeed, is there any wit within us that was not God given?

Good old, tired argument from incredulity, repeated ad nauseam. By the way, why don’t you throw away that useless “junk” you used to post this (that useless junk of a computer, using that uselss junk called the internet)? The useless junk of medicine that cures you? The useless heap of junk of a car that transports you? **Don’t just preach your gospel, practice it! **

Take a close look around, surely there must exist a God (and, of course, a powerful and deceitful evil spirit as well) that instructs, guides, and connects us! How else could six billion people, each with their own independent “freewill,” possibly maintain their existence? How else could our “modern” world ever have come about – over such a short period of time?

First, don’t call me “Surely”. And why that “powerful and deceitful ‘evil’ spirit”? Such a childish demonology.

It is not the reality of God or the Hereafter that we should doubt, but our perceptions as to the reality of our world and our own self!

Oh, yes, let’s doubt our perception of reality. Let’s doubt that food is nourishing, that water “really” quenches our thirst. And while doubting that, let’s put our doubt into practice. I mean - do it! And let’s see how long you can survive by eating sand, and drinking sulphuric acid. After all it is only our useless perception that tells us not to do such silly things… See you after two weeks of trying - if you are still alive. I make a prediction. You will not do it. You don’t believe what you say.

 

[colmcille1]

Troll alert!!!
Mr. Daneel is itching for a scrap. He’s doing this because his perceptive powers need no sharpening and he will simply DEVOUR those who say they do…!!

It’s a long road that has no turning.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Hi Robert,
May I congratulate you on a finely-constructed post!
I read it as one would read the preamble to a lively dissertation on God and Man: full of delightful expectation.
Not only do I find your argument compelling, I am drawn to your compositional skills.
(As I posted to Elizabeth502 yesterday, I like to comment upon posts which, for me, stand out from the crowd, as it were.)
Given your background, can we expect said dissertation anytime soon?!
God Bless,
Colmcille.

Thanks for the warm thoughts!

QUESTION:
What takes more wit: The design of a computer chip or the wit to design and build the machines necessary to manufacture the chips?

Take it from an old tool and die maker: To account for all the engineering and machine building in manufacturing all the stuff in modern society there should be a bundle of very talented engineers and tool and die makers on every street corner.

 

[colmcille1]

Thanks for the warm thoughts!

QUESTION:
What takes more wit: The design of a computer chip or the wit to design and build the machines necessary to manufacture the chips?

Take it from an old tool and die maker: To account for all the engineering and machine building in manufacturing all the stuff in modern society there should be a bundle of very talented engineers and tool and die makers on every street corner.

Hi Robert,
Once again, a very sage post.
If I may, I think that your references to engineering could be used as an analogy for the greatness that is our Faith.
Such insights are another reason why I find these forums so enlightening: the handing on of tried and tested wisdom guided always by Him.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Oh, yes, let’s doubt our perception of reality. Let’s doubt that food is nourishing, that water “really” quenches our thirst. And while doubting that, let’s put our doubt into practice. I mean - do it! And let’s see how long you can survive by eating sand, and drinking sulphuric acid. After all it is only our useless perception that tells us not to do such silly things…

What do Los Angeles, history, marriage, Judaism, Catholicism, and government all have in common? Give-up? The answer is that, from a philosophical perspective, they are all make-believe! In themselves, they exist only in our imagination – human imagination that is easily led astray! They are a part of our collective fantasy, in our world of make-believe.

For example, there is really no Los Angeles, but only a heavily populated geographical location that we, for whatever reason, call Los Angeles. When we think about Los Angeles many things may come to mind: mental images such as its glamour, prestige, progressiveness, or greatness. Again, all these images exist within the human mind. Beyond the mere physical and spiritual qualities within a geographical area, including the physical and spiritual aspects of day-to-day events, Los Angeles is just a fantasy. Similarly, marriage is nothing more than a make-believe called a custom – a custom often involving unusually, if not bizarre, ritualistic behavior that for many help direct their much larger day-to-day fantasy. History is nothing more than human interpretation, based on past make-believe, of how our current make-believe came about. Is government real? Not really! There are many people who claim to be a part of government, but they too are caught-up in a fantasy. The purpose of their specific fantasy, to a large degree, is to keep our larger social fantasy from going astray. Government, in a sense, is a dominant fantasy that creates and enforces many of the rules within our make-believe world. However, it is not government that invented, nor that guides, our make-believe. Although human government may control bits and pieces of our make-believe world, understanding the fine intricacy and being able to predict the extreme number of interactions within the world-wide fantasy is far beyond human capability. Is there really such a thing as a church? Remember, what we often call a church building is really a collection of things put together in such a way to resemble what people have previously agreed to call a church. Are the Catholic Church and Judaism real? These things too, far more often than not, are really nothing more than a fantasy within our world of make-believe.

The biggest differences between make-believe play of children and the make-believe world of the adult is that children usually know that they are just pretending! Sure, the world we live in is real, but search deep enough into any part of it and you will surely discover that it is based on make-believe; strip away all the fantasy from this world, as if one were able, and you would see nothing but God (or the handiwork of God). God alone is Truth, and God alone is Love! As far as God is incomprehensible, we are bound to live in make-believe. But, to the degree that God reveals Himself to us, we are able to see reality. (Note that being able to see the reality of God is quite different from comprehending Him.) So, you see, there truly is a deeper underlying reality to every fantasy within our world, including the Catholic Church and Judaism, but this reality must ultimately be attributed to our Creator.

And yes, I believe that Judaism, Catholicism, and the other forms of Christianity teach the Word of God (but at varying levels of hierarchical understanding). I believe that God works through each of these religious institutions: each being a specially designed “tool” of God that is being used to bring our temporary, make-believe world into the Kingdom of God. The point here is that whenever we lose sight of God, we lose sight of Reality; whenever the reality of God is obscured within any of these religious forms, the sacred truth within them is also obscured; all that remains is fantasy within the human mind.

Can make-believe have a purpose? I believe so. Why else would God allow us to live in a fantasy world? It is all within the plan of God to bring His children, who have wandered astray, back to salvation! Know that our fantasy-world can easily lead us into evil; but also know that it can also bring us closer to God – perhaps far closer to Him than we could have if we never experienced evil. An excellent example of this is the life of Saint Augustine, who lived a life of sinful lust until his conversion.

So come, let us accept and respect that our world is make-believe. Unlike the many others around us, however, let us worship God so that we do not drift into a dark, repulsive fantasy (or become a victim of the dark, repulsive fantasy of others); let us not become too content living in this world of make-believe, but let us build our faith so we can focus our attention on the real glory of the World to Come. Remember that it is our evil ways that are the real evil of today, and not fantasy per se. Trust that this life has a higher-ordered purpose. Think of this life on earth as a living-sacrifice; offer everything you do, and all the struggles and hardships you endure, to God as a sacrifice in recognition of His loving-kindness. Be patient and humble, choose love above all else, seek to do the will of God, and be not afraid!

Finally, people who say that Hell is merely make-believe – a mere fantasy that is a product of human imagination – are largely correct. But those who say that Hell is not real are seriously mistaken!

 

[JDaniel]

Imagine making a journey through the African jungle and coming upon a primitive tribe of people. Imagine this tribe not knowing anything about electricity or running water, never mind the “modern” world. Now imagine telling them about the existence of technology such as television, computers, cameras, telephones, medicine, and large cities. Would you expect them to grasp the meaning and implications of what you were telling them? Would you expect intelligent people living just a few hundred years ago to believe this stuff? Well then, might it also be presumptuous for us to assume that intelligence begins and ends with us simply because we do not yet understand God? Is it not wiser to at least consider the possibility that we too are primitive, and that a more intelligent world may really exist – such as a spiritual world that contains the living souls of our ancestors? Given the ease that we are able to save vast amounts of programming and data on our home computer, is it really that difficult to imagine that God can somehow save our souls into the Hereafter?

Next, ask yourself if you have the wit to figure-out how to manufacture a simple box of toothpicks? Do you think a group of otherwise “brilliant” professors, but all who lack any knowledge in mechanical design and manufacturing, could figure this out entirely on their own? How many trials and errors would it take any of us before we discovered an efficient method? Now ask yourself who among us has the innate wit to develop the techniques to: make a pencil or pen; create a light bulb; design and manufacture each and every component of a television set; devise a complete cellular telephone system; produce from raw material every type of item found within a modern city! Yes, there being six billion people explains why we are able to produce so much worthless junk, but was there ever a sufficient amount of natural wit within the human species for us to have brought our world to where it is at today? Indeed, is there any wit within us that was not God given?

Take a close look around, surely there must exist a God (and, of course, a powerful and deceitful evil spirit as well) that instructs, guides, and connects us! How else could six billion people, each with their own independent “freewill,” possibly maintain their existence? How else could our “modern” world ever have come about – over such a short period of time?

It is not the reality of God or the Hereafter that we should doubt, but our perceptions as to the reality of our world and our own self!

Here! Here!

God bless,
jd

 

[R_Daneel]

What do Los Angeles, history, marriage, Judaism, Catholicism, and government all have in common? Give-up? The answer is that, from a philosophical perspective, they are all make-believe! In themselves, they exist only in our imagination – human imagination that is easily led astray! They are a part of our collective fantasy, in our world of make-believe.

You talk about concepts and abstractions here. Which is fine. But concepts do not all belong to the same category. Some concepts pertain to actual, ontological objects (planets, houses, etc…), some pertain to attributes of ontological concepts (distance, heat, etc…), some describe other concepts (meta-concepts), and some talk about fully imagiary “things” (angels, demons, gods, etc…). To put all of them into the basket of “make-believe” is a serious epistemological mistake. And, of course, they have nothing to do with your original post.

 

[colmcille1]

Hi Robert,
Another magnificent post!
I will now study St Augustine in order to gain specific illustative knowledge of your general point here.
I have seen several posters refer to this Saint so it is obvious he carries great weight of wisdom.
Do you think that your final statement re hell is one which the CC would recognise as being a terrible dichotomy held by many in this world today?
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Hi Robert,
Another magnificent post!
I will now study St Augustine in order to gain specific illustative knowledge of your general point here.
I have seen several posters refer to this Saint so it is obvious he carries great weight of wisdom.
Do you think that your final statement re hell is one which the CC would recognise as being a terrible dichotomy held by many in this world today?
God Bless,
Colmcille.

Hi colmcille1;
Yes, I believe there is a perceived dichotomy within the concept of hell in the eyes of many Catholics.

 

[JDaniel]

and some talk about fully imagiary “things” (angels, demons, gods, etc…)

Now, RD: You know as well as I that that’s just not true. Assertions, assertions, assertions. Right?

God bless,
jd

 

[R_Daneel]

Now, RD: You know as well as I that that’s just not true. Assertions, assertions, assertions. Right?

Actually I don’t know, but I am willing to be convinced of my “error”. There have been many threads about the subject, and this is one of them. As all the others, this one is unconvincing, too. This is based upon the “argument of incredulity”. Here is a link to the others: godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm Read it and pick whichever you think is convincing, and we can talk about it.

 

[colmcille1]

Hi all,
Following on from my earlier troll alert, may I draw your attention to 1Peter 5:8-9 :

‘Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.
Whom resist ye, strong in faith: knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world.’

God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[inocente]

Now ask yourself who among us has the innate wit to develop the techniques to: make a pencil or pen; create a light bulb; design and manufacture each and every component of a television set; devise a complete cellular telephone system; produce from raw material every type of item found within a modern city! Yes, there being six billion people explains why we are able to produce so much worthless junk, but was there ever a sufficient amount of natural wit within the human species for us to have brought our world to where it is at today? Indeed, is there any wit within us that was not God given?

Take a close look around, surely there must exist a God (and, of course, a powerful and deceitful evil spirit as well) that instructs, guides, and connects us! How else could six billion people, each with their own independent “freewill,” possibly maintain their existence? How else could our “modern” world ever have come about – over such a short period of time?

Hold on to your horse there partner. You appear to be arguing against free will. If God instructs and guides people to make cellular telephones, who is it that instructs and guides other people on how to use them as trigger components in bombs? Who instructs and guides the people who develop and make weapons of mass destruction?

I did guess that it might be Satan, but then I thought about automobiles. They can be used both by bank robbers and by the cops chasing them. Who instructs and guides the toolmaker who makes tools that can be used for both good and evil?

You can see I’m very confused by all of this, but then I’m not a Catholic. Is all of this in the teaching of the Church so I can read more?

Similarly, marriage is nothing more than a make-believe called a custom – a custom often involving unusually, if not bizarre, ritualistic behavior that for many help direct their much larger day-to-day fantasy.

I’d really hesitate to say that to my wife. She’s under the impression that it’s a sacrament. We’ve been married for a really long time on that basis. Is the Eucharist also bizarre make-believe or is that different?

Your profundity eludes me.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Hold on to your horse there partner. You appear to be arguing against free will. If God instructs and guides people to make cellular telephones, who is it that instructs and guides other people on how to use them as trigger components in bombs? Who instructs and guides the people who develop and make weapons of mass destruction?

I did guess that it might be Satan, but then I thought about automobiles. They can be used both by bank robbers and by the cops chasing them. Who instructs and guides the toolmaker who makes tools that can be used for both good and evil?

You can see I’m very confused by all of this, but then I’m not a Catholic. Is all of this in the teaching of the Church so I can read more?

I’d really hesitate to say that to my wife. She’s under the impression that it’s a sacrament. We’ve been married for a really long time on that basis. Is the Eucharist also bizarre make-believe or is that different?

Your profundity eludes me.

As with any make-believe, we can use our God given talents (wit) for good or evil (free will).

As for God in the Holy Eucharist, yes God is present.

My main premise is that God alone is real, and that everything else is nullified in His true presence. Nothing can exist without God.

 

[tonyrey]

Robert, the things we observe with our senses are supposed by materialists to be the touchstone of reality. This is sheer nonsense. We infer the existence of material objects but our sole certainty and primary data are our thoughts, feelings and sensations. We already belong to a higher dimension of reality: the realm of truth, goodness, freedom, beauty and love…

 

[inocente]

How else could six billion people, each with their own independent “freewill,” possibly maintain their existence?

As with any make-believe, we can use our God given talents (wit) for good or evil (free will).

Don’t these two statements directly contradict each other? Are you arguing for or against free will?

My main premise is that God alone is real, and that everything else is nullified in His true presence. Nothing can exist without God.

So are you real or is God alone real?

Sorry, this is all exceptionally hard to understand. If you’re only preaching to a Catholic choir then fine, but otherwise have a go at convincing me.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Don’t these two statements directly contradict each other? Are you arguing for or against free will?

So are you real or is God alone real?

Sorry, this is all exceptionally hard to understand. If you’re only preaching to a Catholic choir then fine, but otherwise have a go at convincing me.

I’m arguing for free will that exists with our make believe.

God alone is reality. Everything is non-existent in the immediate presence of God.

 

[inocente]

I’m arguing for free will that exists with our make believe.

God alone is reality. Everything is non-existent in the immediate presence of God.

I’ll leave it there then, as each answer is leaving me more perplexed.