A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[fbl9]

rev_kevin:
Quoting the post did show your blue text rev kevin,What does my parents desire ect…That statement is very disrespectful of your parents.Think for just a few seconds there boy,you sure didn’t have no choice as to whom were to be your parents,Who made thatchoice for you?

 

[fbl9]

Rev. Kev, do you believe in original sin? If you do, how is it removed if not by baptism?

I think rev kevin does believe in orginal sin …It does appear that he does believe that it is never removed…But somehow his soul, which is dead to God due to orginal sin , is alive with God while still retaining the condition which made it dead in the first place.

 

[SnakeMauler]

When your saved you accept Christ into your life but that is no guarentee that you will have salvation which is going to heaven.

OK, so all that means is that you decide that you believe in Christ and I suppose gain a level of understanding of why He died for us and such… so what you’re saying is that being saved means that by simply accepting some aspect of Jesus into your life once, he never leaves? I’m pretty sure Jesus/God loves every single human being even if they’re not a Christian.

 

[Xavierlives]

My OSAS Response to the Following verses:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

First this is a large metaphor for the Olive Tree of Christianity. So, at this portion there is an obvious statement that shows a lack of nourishment (and being cut off) from the trunk of the tree if they fall outside of God’s kindness. Two things to note: the remove limb is not “burned” but instead removed. The very next verse says, “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.” So as soon as they return to belief they will receive the nourishment.

OSAS can take this two ways: 1. As long as I stay in God’s kindness, I am always being nourished. 2. This verse shows disfellowship (similar to the prodigal son), but not a disowning.

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

First on a side note: I have actually heard non-Christians try to use this as an example of God have other plans of Salvation, because it basically says, once you learn about Christ and accept him, you are bound to that. Meaning, if you don’t know about Christ you are not bound to Christ’s standards.

For OSAS, I would say the point is Christ is never rejected, as suggested must happen in this verse. The person still maintains Christ is their Judge, just that they are falling short of the mark.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Well the “they” in this set of verses appears to be talking about false teachers. These false teachers then rejected their own teaching but then became slaves to corruption.

 

[SHW]

What does my parents desire have to do with me being taught to do the things that Jesus commanded.

It must have been important to them or someone else in your family to have Original Sin removed from your soul, otherwise they would not have bothered to have you baptized. All children should be taught to know, love, and serve God.

It could be done without their desire.

Not very easily.

Being Baptized does not remove original sin, it a commitment to God, a rebirth into his family which is your choice and nobody eles. How can someone accept Christ for you? We all have a sin nature that will never leave us and this sin nature is the original sin.

Baptism does remove Original Sin. Original Sin is Adam’s first sin. It is the sin that lost our (mankind’s) right to eternal life and also brought physical death and suffering to all mankind Romans 5:12.

Babies and young children cannot make these choices for themselves. They have not yet reached the age of reason. It is the parent’s duty and obligation to baptize their children and raise their children in the faith even if their children do not continue in the faith after they become adults Prov 22:6. This proverb is a generalization.

Christ’s Church has always taught that Baptism removes Original Sin and it will continue to teach this doctrine until Jesus returns at His Second Coming.
**
Baptism forgives all sins on the soul at the time of the Baptism.** Acts 22:16

Irenaeus
“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Origen
“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]). From: catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_of_Infant_Baptism.asp

**
Whole households** were baptized at the same time in the days of the Apostles. Most households had infants and children in them since households included the servants also.

Acts 16:15
And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us.

1 Cor 1:16
Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.

Even though some of the Gentiles received baptism of desire/change of heart, they still had to be water baptized because this was Jesus’ command Acts 10:44-48. It is His chosen way of applying the merits of His sacrifice on the cross to the individual person’s soul. The Holy Spirit’s Power leaves a mark (seal) on the soul when Original Sin is removed Eph 4:30.

Baptism takes the place of circumcision in the New Covenant. 2 Cor 1:22

I will stick with Catholic Church teaching about Baptism and Original Sin. This Church hasn’t ever changed its teachings on faith and morals in the nearly 2000 years of its existence. Jesus promised to be with His one Catholic/universal Church always until He returns at His Second Coming (end of the age/time) Mat 28:19-20, Rom 1:8.

Ignatius of Antioch
“Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is,** there is the Catholic Church**.”[Epistle to the Smyrneans 8:2.]. [circa A.D. 107]

The Baptist religion was founded 400 years ago and it was founded with different doctrines on baptism than Jesus’ doctrines on baptism.

Lk 18:16
But Jesus called them to Him and said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

Restoring spiritual relationship with God though Baptism is the best way for little children to come to Christ because it gives them sanctifying grace and also other graces 1 Cor 6:11.

 

[SHW]

You haven’t read my posts then because I said that once you are saved or accpet Christ into your life he will never leave you, {once saved always saved} but you can loose your salvation. Salvation is not a sure thing. I never said anything different.

Christ never leaves us while we are still on earth if we are obedient to Him Hebrews 13:5-7, Matthew 10:33. However, we leave Him/deny Him when we sin “sins leading to death” Titus 1:16. Our own sins condemn us. Titus 3:10-11 We cause the loss of fellowship with God when we sin mortal (spiritually deadly) sins.

Christ is always waiting for us to repent and restore our relationship with Him 2 Peter 3:9. He gives every person enough actual grace to repent if they choose to accept His grace. Unfortunately, many persons become hardened in their sins and have no desire to repent. Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 3:6-18 The Holy Spirit cannot live in a temple/soul defiled by mortal sin 1 Corinthians 3:16-17.

You are correct. Eternal salvation is not a sure thing.

 

[SHW]

First on a side note: I have actually heard non-Christians try to use this as an example of God have other plans of Salvation, because it basically says, once you learn about Christ and accept him, you are bound to that. Meaning, if you don’t know about Christ you are not bound to Christ’s standards.

It is true that God judges each person’s heart in a just manner. If persons have no opportunity to learn about Him, then their own consciences will bear witness. Romans 2:14-16

Those persons who had the opportunity of knowing Him, but chose to reject Him are damned. So are those persons who did know Him, but later chose to disobey Him. Thessalonians 1:8

Many millions of people believe in OSAS. I fear for them because not all of them fear God 1 Peter 1:17-19.

We all must “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.” Philippians 2:12

 

[elvisman]

My OSAS Response to the Following verses:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

First this is a large metaphor for the Olive Tree of Christianity. So, at this portion there is an obvious statement that shows a lack of nourishment (and being cut off) from the trunk of the tree if they fall outside of God’s kindness. Two things to note: the remove limb is not “burned” but instead removed. The very next verse says, “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.” So as soon as they return to belief they will receive the nourishment.

OSAS can take this two ways: 1. As long as I stay in God’s kindness, I am always being nourished. 2. This verse shows disfellowship (similar to the prodigal son), but not a disowning.

This argument is weak in trying to prove the OSAS position. This is the Catholic position of faithful** endurance****. You point out that the limb is not burned but instead removed – which is exactly what the Church teaches in regards to mortal sin and excommunication. When the penitent returns through Confession and Reconciliation with the Church – they are grafted back in. NO limb will be burned until after they are judged – and guess when that happens? AFTER they die and leaved this world.**

---

**The TRUE OSAS adherent says that no matter what happens after I am initially saved – I cannot lose my salvation – period.
**

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

First on a side note:

I have actually heard non-Christians try to use this as an example of God have other plans of Salvation, because it basically says, once you learn about Christ and accept him, you are bound to that. Meaning, if you don’t know about Christ you are not bound to Christ’s standards.
And they would be partially correct. In John 9:41, Jesus emphatically said to the Pharisees:
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, ‘We see,’ so your sin remains.”
In Luke 12:48 – he echoes this sentiment:
**“…and the servant who was ignorant of his master’s will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.”
**

For OSAS, I would say the point is Christ is never rejected, as suggested must happen in this verse. The person still maintains Christ is their Judge, just that they are falling short of the mark.

This verse never suggests this. This denies free will and is therefore, heresy.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Well the “they” in this set of verses appears to be talking about false teachers. These false teachers then rejected their own teaching but then became slaves to corruption.

Can you understand that it doesn’t matter who the verse is directed to at the time – it is directed to ALL in the context of Scripture. This is “Hermeneutics 101”.
Let’s go with your take on it. You claim that it is only directed towards teachers – the message is the SAME. They can know and live the truth and be on the road to salvation – and later, LOSE their faith and whatever hope they had of salvation.

 

[rev_kevin]

Quoting the post did show your blue text rev kevin,What does my parents desire ect…That statement is very disrespectful of your parents.Think for just a few seconds there boy,you sure didn’t have no choice as to whom were to be your parents,Who made thatchoice for you?

Just because I disagree with their decession don’t mean I disrepect them or being disrespectful. God made that choice who my parents would be. Now who’s choice is it that a child is born to parents that harm them? Who made that choice for them?

 

[rev_kevin]

Christ never leaves us while we are still on earth if we are obedient to Him Hebrews 13:5-7, Matthew 10:33. However, we leave Him/deny Him when we sin “sins leading to death” Christ never leaves us even if we disobey him, to say otherwise is saying that God only loves us if we do what he says which is not true.Titus 1:16. Our own sins condemn us. Titus 3:10-11 We cause the loss of fellowship with God when we sin mortal (spiritually deadly) sins. Correct we cause loss of fellowship with God but we are still saved.

Christ is always waiting for us to repent and restore our relationship with Him 2 Peter 3:9. He gives every person enough actual grace to repent if they choose to accept His grace. Unfortunately, many persons become hardened in their sins and have no desire to repent. Hebrews 6:4-6, Correct we must repent and if you don’t you loose your salvation.Hebrews 3:6-18 The Holy Spirit cannot live in a temple/soul defiled by mortal sin 1 Corinthians 3:16-17.correct thats why you loose salvation but you don’t loose being saved.

You are correct. Eternal salvation is not a sure thing.

 

[rev_kevin]

It must have been important to them or someone else in your family to have Original Sin removed from your soul, otherwise they would not have bothered to have you baptized. All children should be taught to know, love, and serve God.

Not very easily.

Baptism does remove Original Sin. Original Sin is Adam’s first sin. It is the sin that lost our (mankind’s) right to eternal life and also brought physical death and suffering to all mankind Romans 5:12.

Babies and young children cannot make these choices for themselves. They have not yet reached the age of reason. It is the parent’s duty and obligation to baptize their children and raise their children in the faith even if their children do not continue in the faith after they become adults Prov 22:6. This proverb is a generalization.

Christ’s Church has always taught that Baptism removes Original Sin and it will continue to teach this doctrine until Jesus returns at His Second Coming.
**
Baptism forgives all sins on the soul at the time of the Baptism.** Acts 22:16

**
Whole households** were baptized at the same time in the days of the Apostles. Most households had infants and children in them since households included the servants also.

Acts 16:15
And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us.

1 Cor 1:16
Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.

Even though some of the Gentiles received baptism of desire/change of heart, they still had to be water baptized because this was Jesus’ command Acts 10:44-48. It is His chosen way of applying the merits of His sacrifice on the cross to the individual person’s soul. The Holy Spirit’s Power leaves a mark (seal) on the soul when Original Sin is removed Eph 4:30.

Baptism takes the place of circumcision in the New Covenant. 2 Cor 1:22

I will stick with Catholic Church teaching about Baptism and Original Sin. This Church hasn’t ever changed its teachings on faith and morals in the nearly 2000 years of its existence. Jesus promised to be with His one Catholic/universal Church always until He returns at His Second Coming (end of the age/time) Mat 28:19-20, Rom 1:8.

The Baptist religion was founded 400 years ago and it was founded with different doctrines on baptism than Jesus’ doctrines on baptism.

Lk 18:16
But Jesus called them to Him and said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

Restoring spiritual relationship with God though Baptism is the best way for little children to come to Christ because it gives them sanctifying grace and also other graces 1 Cor 6:11.

I’ve heard all the arguments about the “whole house hold” thing and I’m not buying the arguments.

 

[tweetymom]

I’ve heard all the arguments about the “whole house hold” thing and I’m not buying the arguments.

Me either Rev.

 

[rev_kevin]

That’s not what the Bible says (Acts 2:47 - they were BEING saved). Being reborn is being reborn - not saved.You are being reborn into a new life, hence being saved.

The Bible indicates that those who have finished the race are saved
You must read the Bible in CONTEXT or you are doing a great disservice to yourself and those to whom you evangelize.likewise i’m sure.

You cannot "be saved" then lose your salvation. You can lose the process of salvation. There is nobody who is still alive that is completely saved - NOBODY.

So your not saved?

 

[qui_est_ce]

I’ve heard all the arguments about the “whole house hold” thing and I’m not buying the arguments.

Me either Rev.

What do you teach your RCIA students about Catholic Teaching on Baptism?

 

[tweetymom]

What do you teach your RCIA students about Catholic Teaching on Baptism?

Like I have told you a dozen times I teach what the Church teaches, nothing more nothing less.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Like I have told you a dozen times I teach what the Church teaches, nothing more nothing less.

Why would you teach something you believe to be false?

 

[rev_kevin]

What do you teach your RCIA students about Catholic Teaching on Baptism?

That Baptism is Immersion or submersion. That Baptism doesn’t save a person but is a sign of obedience to Christ That giong under the water is like a dead person being buried under the ground, that is pictures that a person had died to the old way of life. Raising up from the water is like a dead person coming up from the grave in the earth, it pictuers new life that is eternal and future resurrection from the grave. That Baptism is not a requirement of salvation but it is a requirement of obedience. Baptism is the first step of discipleship.Baptism is never the salvation event but a picture of it. Christian Baptism is in a sense a sharing of this death and resurrection and all that brought Christ to those events. Baptism also gives witness to the death and resurrection of Christ, those who participate are identified with Him.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, Tweety, I must say that if that’s so, it’s amazing.

I personally could not (in good conscience) present myself as a teacher say for a protestant Sunday School program and tell my students protestant teachings that contradicted the truth of the Catholic teachings. My conscience would say that I (personally) would have to tell the students, along with the protestant teaching, that “This I know is what your church teaches, but it is not a teaching that I believe.” Of course, if I’d been silly enough to apply for a position that totally conflicted with my faith in such a way, I’d have the responsibility to tell the director, when I first prepared my lesson plan and saw the trouble, that “I’m sorry, but I just don’t believe this teaching and I can’t tell the students this.” Then I would graciously resign with an apology for their trouble.

I simply and absolutely could not engage in any kind of teaching to others in which I would ‘present’ as God’s teachings any teachings which I knew were ‘wrong.’

And (with due respect) I cannot see how it benefits either the student OR the teacher in such a situation. Surely the students can see, hear, or sense that the teacher ‘does not believe’ what s/he says. And surely the teacher, with every passing year, becomes even more ‘anti’ the teachings s/he does not agree with.

 

[qui_est_ce]

That Baptism is Immersion or submersion. That Baptism doesn’t save a person but is a sign of obedience to Christ That giong under the water is like a dead person being buried under the ground, that is pictures that a person had died to the old way of life. Raising up from the water is like a dead person coming up from the grave in the earth, it pictuers new life that is eternal and future resurrection from the grave. That Baptism is not a requirement of salvation but it is a requirement of obedience. Baptism is the first step of discipleship.Baptism is never the salvation event but a picture of it. Christian Baptism is in a sense a sharing of this death and resurrection and all that brought Christ to those events. Baptism also gives witness to the death and resurrection of Christ, those who participate are identified with Him.

That is not what the Catholic Church teaches, and Tweety says she teaches students who want to convert to the Catholic faith.
BTW, I’ll respond to the points in your posts later.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I simply and absolutely could not engage in any kind of teaching to others in which I would ‘present’ as God’s teachings any teachings which I knew were ‘wrong.’

And (with due respect) I cannot see how it benefits either the student OR the teacher in such a situation. Surely the students can see, hear, or sense that the teacher ‘does not believe’ what s/he says. And surely the teacher, with every passing year, becomes even more ‘anti’ the teachings s/he does not agree with.

I’m sayin’! Would I want to teach Sola Scriptura in a Baptist church, when it goes completely against my understanding of Truth!