A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

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I am a fairly new Christian. It was explained to me that the person who falls from grace was never truly saved. This might be semantics and an excuse to justify the fall. The thing that really confuses me is predestination. Is it G-d’s choice or our choice? With free will I believe I have the choice to refuse G-d’s grace and call to everlasting life. Is this right? I am choosing to be a humble and grateful servant and I pray that the hunger to serve will never leave my heart. In the end, I guess it does not matter whether I chose Him or He chooses me as long as I get to spend eternity with Him.

The problem I have with OSAS is the Catholic approach. Sunday morning I ask for forgiveness and before I even get home I am repeating the same poor behaviors without a second thought. If that is how you live your life, you/I should not be granted grace. But I know Jesus died for my sins. Then act. How do you know what you know? Now I am not saying works buy your way in but if you are truly saved then good works should spill out, naturally. You cannot have one without the other. This is very confusing but as they say progress not perfection.

Shawn
For myself, I noticed a huge difference when I started making use of the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. Before, I was like you - I couldn’t stop sinning. Now, I have weeks when I can’t even think of anything to confess, when I go to Confession. My husband has also noticed an incredible improvement - I don’t lose my temper nearly as often, any more. 🙂
 
No I did not miss any of your posts. But what you post is from men.
Since Jesus only spoke “in person” on earth 2000 years ago, how else, if not from men, do you think you are going to hear from Him today? So, why do you believe in God now at this point in time?

Even Scripture was written by men through the inspiration of God 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

Luke 10:16-17
He who hears you (My Church) hears Me, he who rejects you (My Church) rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” 17 Then the seventy (apostles/disciples/leaders) returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”

Matthew 18:17
And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Jesus founded a Church to represent Him on earth. We must listen to and obey His Church because it speaks for Him. If we do not, then we are like heathens and tax collectors. It would not be a compliment to be called either a heathen or a tax collector. 😉

Jesus gave His authority to His Church of the New Covenant in the same way as He gave His authority to Moses in the Old Covenant. Just as the Israelites/Jews had to obey Moses and the Law of Moses, we Christians now have to obey the Pope and the magisterium (Church).

Matthew 23:1-3
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Matthew 16:13-19
When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Moses’ seat is no longer relevant in the New Covenant. The pope and magisterium are.

Jesus speaks to His apostles/disciples (leaders of His Church):

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. 18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
 
like I said heard it all before. Not buying this house hold arguement.
SO, the Catholic Early Church Father’s letters mean nothing to you. Even though they prove that what the Catholic Church still teaches now was what was always taught in the early Universal/Catholic Church headed by the Apostles.

The Bible is a Catholic Book. Protestants “borrowed” it so that they could claim it as their own Book, but they decided to change the canon (number of books contained in it) and also to change the Scripture interpretations of whatever they did not agree with in Catholic teaching.

Wouldn’t it have been smarter for the Protestants to ask God for their own Book? And to also ask Him to put this new Book in plain English with explanatory notes for American Protestants since they cannot agree among themselves on the correct Scripture interpretations and also because they cannot agree among themselves on infallible doctrines on baptism, OSAS, etc.? 😉
 
It’s very simple, really - when He was speaking to the Apostles alone, then the instruction is for the Apostles and their successors alone. When He is speaking to “the crowds” then it is an instruction for all of us to follow. 🙂
👍
 
Hi, Xavierlives,
Lets look at the abundance of charity:
You are a Devil. You are arrogant.

You are ignorant.

I don’t have my charity measuring stick handy, but this kind of tone makes me not want to have discussions with him.
And, just what kind of tone do you want, Xavierlives?

God bless
 
Hi, SHW,
The Bible is a Catholic Book. Protestants “borrowed” it so that they could claim it as their own Book, but they decided to change the canon (number of books contained in it) and also to change the Scripture interpretations of whatever they did not agree with in Catholic teaching.
I’ve always thought of more as an adaptation or abridgement … just editing out text that one does not agree with … well… it just seems to be more then borrrowing! :rolleyes:

God bless
 
Answer my questions. You are doing the same thing you have accused “my kind” of doing.
You still haven’t answered my question yet…What did you think of God’s choice for your parents?Can’t even finish what you started cause you can’t bear to look at yourself it is much easier to look at somone else.
 
Just because I disagree with their decession don’t mean I disrepect them or being disrespectful. God made that choice who my parents would be. Now who’s choice is it that a child is born to parents that harm them? Who made that choice for them?
The same One that chose your parents. And the question has absolutely nothing to do with you you can’t run from yourself…
 
Hi, SHW,

I’ve always thought of more as an adaptation or abridgement … just editing out text that one does not agree with … well… it just seems to be more then borrrowing! :rolleyes:

God bless
And I always thought of it as "hijacking" . . .:rolleyes:
 
Where does it state that its a process?
It does not emphatically state “Salvation is a process.”

However, we can figure out from Scripture that it is a process.

Baptism gives us hope of eternal life.

Titus 3:7
so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

“Hope” is not a “guarantee.” I can hope to go to the football game on Sunday, but that does not mean that I will actually be there at the football game on Sunday. I could become ill; Someone in my family could become ill or die; or I could be in a car accident on the way and never get there, etc.

2 Thessalonians 1:3-12
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 3:5-18
And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Be Faithful

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:
Code:
  “ Today, if you will hear His voice,
   8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
  In the day of trial in the wilderness,
   9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
  And saw My works forty years.
   10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
  And said, ‘**They always go astray in their heart**,
  And they have not known My ways.’
   11 So I swore in My wrath,
  ‘ They shall not enter My rest.’”
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:
Code:
  “ Today, if you will hear His voice,
  Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
Failure of the Wilderness Wanderers

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?

After persons are reconciled to God, they must obey His commandments until they die (until the end) if they desire to inherit eternal life. Hopefully, we will grow in love for God and become perfected Christians. If we Christians remain lukewarm (either no or few good fruits/works) then we will not be saved. Revelation 3:15-18

So this is why we have “hope” of eternal life only. We are not guaranteed eternal life. Inheriting eternal life is conditional on whether we obey God until the instant of our deaths.
 
Yes, but it is not very likely that you will.

John states:

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

Venial sin is “sin which does not lead to death.” Venial sin does not cause the loss of sanctifying grace. In other words, venial sin does not cause the loss of eternal life.
If venial sin does not lead to spiritual death, then why would we pray so that “He may give him life”. Doesn’t this believer have spritual life already since his/her sin was only venial?
Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

It is possible for people living in/hardened by mortal sin to repent before they die, but it is highly unlikely that they will. We must keep praying for them anyway. James 5:19-20
The key here is not to leave Hebrews 2:3 behind to help understand the Hebrews 6:4-6:

", if we neglect so great salvation, which was spoken unto us by those that heard the Lord and confirmed it unto us by signs and wonders and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 6:4-6
The Jews that Paul to which he was writing had saw these signs, had saw the wonders through the miracles, and also heard them spoken from our Lord. Remember that the twelve were also sent out with the ability to do miracles raise the dead and all that. These Jews saw that, they saw the power of the Spirit, and the power of the age to come. Pauls says that if they saw, heard, and were enlightened of this demonstration of the Spirit that Jesus was the Christ and yet still didn’t believe, it were impossible to bring the Jew to repentence from their dead works.
 
If venial sin does not lead to spiritual death, then why would we pray so that “He may give him life”. Doesn’t this believer have life already since his/her sin was only venial?
Good question. 🙂
All sin, including venial sin, is abhorrent to God 1 John 3:4. However, venial sin does not cause the loss of sanctifying grace. But, venial sin is still dangerous because the more we sin venial sins, the easier it will become to sin mortal sins which do cause us the loss of spiritual life/fellowship with God. 1 Corinthians 3:16-18 We pray that those who sin venial sins will repent of these sins and serve God in the manner in which He desires to be served Romans 12:1.
The key here is not to leave Hebrews 2:3 behind to help understand the Hebrews 6:4-6:
", if we neglect so great salvation, which was spoken unto us by those that heard the Lord and confirmed it unto us by signs and wonders and gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Hebrews 6:4-6
The Jews that Paul was writing to had saw these signs, had saw the wonders, the miracles, and also heard them from our Lord. Remember that the twelve were also sent out with the ability to do miracles raise the dead and all that. These Jews saw that, they saw the power of the Spirit, and the power of the age to come. Pauls says that if they saw, heard, and were enlightened of this demonstration of the Spirit that Jesus was the Christ and yet still didn’t believe, it were impossible to bring the Jew to repentence from their dead works.
You are correct in that Hebrews was one manuscript with no chapter and verse notations so it is important to note the context and the audience addressed.

Hebrews 2:1
Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.

To “drift away” means to “lose salvation.” There are different ways to do this, but they all boil down to “disobedience” which is also called “unbelief.”

Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Luke 21:34-36
But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

John 5:14
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.

1 Corinthians 9:27
But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

Galatians 4:11
I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

1 Thessalonians 3:5
For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

1 Timothy 3:5-7
(for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Hebrews 4:1
Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

Hebrews 4:11
Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 12:14-16
Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.

James 5:9-11
Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! 10 My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience. 11 Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.

2 Peter 3:16-18
as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The constant theme of the epistles is: We must remain in the grace of God through obedience to His commandments (belief in God) until we die or else we will suffer condemnation/damnation as a consequence of our disobedience/unbelief.
 
Good question. 🙂
All sin, including venial sin, is abhorrent to God 1 John 3:4. However, venial sin does not cause the loss of sanctifying grace. But, venial sin is still dangerous because the more we sin venial sins, the easier it will become to sin mortal sins which do cause us the loss of spiritual life/fellowship with God. 1 Corinthians 3:16-18 We pray that those who sin venial sins will repent of these sins and serve God in the manner in which He desires to be served Romans 12:1.
All sin is abhorrent to God. But my questions was to your placing your “venial sin” and “spiritual death” into 1 John 5:16. Again here is the verse:

“If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death.”

Why does John instruct us to pray and ask so the sinner may have spirtual life when his sin(s) does not lead to spiritual death?
 
Hi, Xavierlives,

And, just what kind of tone do you want, Xavierlives?

God bless
I’d only expect 1 Corinthians 13: 4**Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails.** But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13**And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.**I think that’s fair.
 
Right. I expect that exactly the same thing would happen with a Hindu or a Buddhist or anyone else facing a near-death experience. No warning angels coming to alert them to their unconfessed sins, or their need for Christ, etc.
Well, because I didn’t have any unconfessed sins and already had Christ.

I guess next time I nearly die I need to make sure I have a blot on my record so I can report that experience too.
 
Well, because I didn’t have any unconfessed sins and already had Christ.

I guess next time I nearly die I need to make sure I have a blot on my record so I can report that experience too.
Actually, my prayer for you is that you will have taken all of your sins to the blood of the Cross in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, by then. 🙂
 
The problem is you come to a forum, make debateable statements, for which you refuse to supply documentation, then when people disagree with you, you make personal attacks on them. This against forum rules.

A Forum is a place for DISCUSSION, not hit and run statements. You should be prepared to defend your arguments, otherwise your presence here is merely combative.

If you make another personal attack, I will have to report you. I’ve been warned for much lesser offences.
You know, I find it humorous that people come in in all forms of puffery trying to stare down each other. I think if everyone would just relax a bit and not make any assumptions we could all have a much better time discussion the issues than hitting each other with our nerf bats.
 
Actually, my prayer for you is that you will have taken all of your sins to the blood of the Cross in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, by then. 🙂
Well if any of that means join the Catholic Church, than it isn’t likely.

But its okay. He knows my name.
 
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