A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

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Xavierlives

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Please read disclaimers at the bottom.

A case for “Once Saved, Always Saved”
I. Salvation is the covenant, our contract with God
A. God’s plan for salvation is a contract.
  1. God makes the offer
  2. The person makes the acceptance.
  3. We can talk about the bargain for exchange, (but I don’t think it is necessary for the argument).
    B. Once in force, the contract can be breached
  4. God will never breach
  5. Your free will, gives you the right to breach.
  6. Details of the breach: When a Christian is not holding up their part of the bargain.
  7. Remedies for breach
    a. Advocates for Christians losing their salvation would have it that God terminates the contract and cuts free the breaching party. (Rescission)
    b. Advocates for once saved, always saved say that God (Specific Performance)
    c. Damages
    C. What if…
  8. God does rescind our contract with him?
    a. He would be a fool to offer it again.
    b. No breached party ever returns to make new contracts with a breached party.
  9. God demands specific performance?
    a. He is remaining solid in his side and forcing the Christian to follow through.
    b. Specific performance can only be accomplished by a specific party.
  10. God seeks damages?
    a. All of our breaches will eventually be answered through damages.
    D. God consistently shows his blessings are free-flowing for a contracting party following the terms of the contract.
II. A Man with Two Sons
A. The Prodigal Son
  1. Younger took his inheritance and left.
    a. Squandered
    b. Lived it up.
    c. Son returns and says, “I do not deserve to be called your son”
    d. Father replies, “kill the fatted calf and let us eat for this my son was dead and is alive again.
    B. Older stayed and worked.
  2. Obeyed the father.
    a. Was angered at the return.
    b. He worked and did his job and now his son is reeping.
    c. The father scolds the older son, “You will receive your inheritance, but today, you brother has returned.”
  3. Received inheritance
III. Some affirmation of our agreement
A. John 4:13-14 – You will thirst no more.
B. John 6:32-35 – You will hunger no more.
C. John 8:12 – I am the light.
D. John 10:27-30 – Jesus gives eternal life, that no one can snatch from His hand.
E. John 14:6-7 – no one come to the Father but by me.
F. Romans 5:20-21 – the law exists and sin abounds, but grace forgives.

Disclaimers:
  1. Someone stated OSAS hasn’t been adequately discussed (which I find hard to believe on this forum, but here is a case for it.)
  2. As a former debate teacher, I have learned you must be able to argue from any angle. I am not saying what I personally believe but I am willing to defend OSAS for a while.
  3. I have an overwhelming caseload right now, and while I would like to answer to CAF 24/7 it will most likely be quite a bit less.
  4. I typed this in word so the cut and paste left this format. The outline form because I thought it would be easier to pick apart. (and easier to type).
  5. Any OSAS proponents out there please feel free to help.
 
Xavierlives said:
Please read disclaimers at the bottom.

A case for “Once Saved, Always Saved”
I. Salvation is the covenant, our contract with God
A. God’s plan for salvation is a contract.
  1. God makes the offer
  2. The person makes the acceptance.
  3. We can talk about the bargain for exchange, (but I don’t think it is necessary for the argument).
    B. Once in force, the contract can be breached
  4. God will never breach
  5. Your free will, gives you the right to breach.
  6. Details of the breach: When a Christian is not holding up their part of the bargain.
  7. Remedies for breach
    a. Advocates for Christians losing their salvation would have it that God terminates the contract and cuts free the breaching party. (Rescission)
    b. Advocates for once saved, always saved say that God (Specific Performance)
    c. Damages
    C. What if…
  8. God does rescind our contract with him?
    a. He would be a fool to offer it again.
    b. No breached party ever returns to make new contracts with a breached party.
  9. God demands specific performance?
    a. He is remaining solid in his side and forcing the Christian to follow through.
    b. Specific performance can only be accomplished by a specific party.
  10. God seeks damages?
    a. All of our breaches will eventually be answered through damages.
    D. God consistently shows his blessings are free-flowing for a contracting party following the terms of the contract.
II. A Man with Two Sons
A. The Prodigal Son
  1. Younger took his inheritance and left.
    a. Squandered
    b. Lived it up.
    c. Son returns and says, “I do not deserve to be called your son”
    d. Father replies, “kill the fatted calf and let us eat for this my son was dead and is alive again.
    B. Older stayed and worked.
  2. Obeyed the father.
    a. Was angered at the return.
    b. He worked and did his job and now his son is reeping.
    c. The father scolds the older son, “You will receive your inheritance, but today, you brother has returned.”
  3. Received inheritance
III. Some affirmation of our agreement
A. John 4:13-14 – You will thirst no more.
B. John 6:32-35 – You will hunger no more.
C. John 8:12 – I am the light.
D. John 10:27-30 – Jesus gives eternal life, that no one can snatch from His hand.
E. John 14:6-7 – no one come to the Father but by me.
F. Romans 5:20-21 – the law exists and sin abounds, but grace forgives.

Disclaimers:
  1. Someone stated OSAS hasn’t been adequately discussed (which I find hard to believe on this forum, but here is a case for it.)
  2. As a former debate teacher, I have learned you must be able to argue from any angle. I am not saying what I personally believe but I am willing to defend OSAS for a while.
  3. I have an overwhelming caseload right now, and while I would like to answer to CAF 24/7 it will most likely be quite a bit less.
  4. I typed this in word so the cut and paste left this format. The outline form because I thought it would be easier to pick apart. (and easier to type).
  5. Any OSAS proponents out there please feel free to help.
Click to expand...
It appears the argument is a case of semantics, in that either some who espouse OSAS don’t understand it as presented in your outline, or Catholics don’t understand it.

As your outline shows, a person can breach the contract. I believe we all have stated a necessary remedy, confession with a contrite heart and repentance. If one does not make appropriate remedies, scriptures tell us a person can be lost.

**Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.**
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
It appears the argument is a case of semantics, in that either some who espouse OSAS don’t understand it as presented in your outline, or Catholics don’t understand it.

As your outline shows, a person can breach the contract. I believe we all have stated a necessary remedy, confession with a contrite heart and repentance. If one does not make appropriate remedies, scriptures tell us a person can be lost.

**Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.**
Click to expand...
Right. We aren’t discussing the contract. We are discussing the breach of that contract and God’s remedy to our breach.

My minor breach can be handled through prayer, because I recognize it and ask for forgiveness. Most people understand that there is a wide varierty of remedies that can be handled within our contract. (And some contracts have language within the document like… if XYZ Corp does not deliver 100 widgets by June 5, they will pay a penalty of $100). What we are talking about though is the BIG BREACH. I am not saying I am delivering 100 widgets on June 6th, I am saying I am never delivering the widgets.
We are talking about here is Christians who appear to turn, or appear to reject, or appear to be in breach.
 
Xavierlives said:
Right. We aren’t discussing the contract. we are discussing the breach of that contract and God’s remedy to our breach.
Click to expand...
According to the scriptures I provided, salvation can be lost.

**Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.**

We all have free will and can fail Him, He will never fail us if we persevere to the end by working out our salvation with fear and trembling. As your outline mentions the prodigal son, the son must come back to the Father.

**Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.**
 
What about the story about the sheep and the goats? Recall that the sheep ministered to the Lord and they were welcomed into heaven. The goats on the other hand, believed in Christ and thus were “saved” yet because they did not act on the word they were sent to eternal torment. I find that this story, in the words of Jesus Christ Himself, puts to rest the once saved always saved debate, at least for me.

We are all Saints once we are members of God’s Church, but we are on probation. We can, if we want to, using our free will throw away our inheritance like the prodical son did and if we do not come to our senses and return to God we will most certainly not want to choose God when we are judged. Remember that the son came to his senses and returned and repented. If he had not repented, he would have starved in the foriegn land where the pigs ate better than he did.

“Once saved always saved” is a VERY comforting thought, but it is not logical for a lot of reasons, but the story of the sheep and goats makes it very clear that we can choose to lose if we in our stubborness choose to do so.

That’s my story and I am sticking to it. 🙂

Jesus Christ is Lord !
 
Xavierlives said:
Right. We aren’t discussing the contract. We are discussing the breach of that contract and God’s remedy to our breach.

My minor breach can be handled through prayer, because I recognize it and ask for forgiveness. Most people understand that there is a wide varierty of remedies that can be handled within our contract. (And some contracts have language within the document like… if XYZ Corp does not deliver 100 widgets by June 5, they will pay a penalty of $100). What we are talking about though is the BIG BREACH. I am not saying I am delivering 100 widgets on June 6th, I am saying I am never delivering the widgets.
We are talking about here is Christians who appear to turn, or appear to reject, or appear to be in breach.
Click to expand...
If I reject God at any point in my life, why would I expect Him to take be back without healing that breach first? If I accept Him and then reject Him, it only matters that I rejected Him. If I repent and return to Him with a humble heart, it only matters that I accepted Him again.
 
Your first premise is WRONG. Salvation is NOT A CONTRACT.
If you want a contract that ensures your salvation, believe whatever you want.
However, if you want a living, real, good relationship with God, you must do what God wills. Otherwise, you won’t have a very good relationship with Him. If you don’t think that matters, again, believe whatever you want and do whatever you please.
You might think you have a contract with God, but you won’t have a decent relationship with Him.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
According to the scriptures I provided, salvation can be lost.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.
Click to expand...
Having a knowledge of the contract does not mean you entered into the contract. In John 9:41 Jesus says, “Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.” The people who do not enter into the contract with God are not free. One of the terms of our with God is a release from that. When someone is offered the contract and they reject it, then they will judged accordingly.
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure how you want to weigh this. There are some who do not enter into an agreement with God. They think they are doing God’s works in Christ’s name but they have been deceived and both the deceivor and the deceived will answer for it.
Prodigal_Son1 said:
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.
Click to expand...
We all fail. We all fall. To deny this is to deny Christ.
Prodigal_Son1 said:
We all have free will and can fail Him, He will never fail us if we persevere to the end by working out our salvation with fear and trembling. As your outline mentions the prodigal son, the son must come back to the Father.
Click to expand...
Jesus did all of the work on the cross. Paul is not beseeching us to “work for” my salvation. That is one of the things God is bringing to his part of the bargain.

I don’t go to McDonald’s and say, “I’d like a burger” and then hop behind the counter and cook it.
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
Click to expand...
You left out Philippians 2:13, “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” God is doing the work.
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
Click to expand...
Picking and choosing scripture is a dangerous pastime. The whole of the statement is from verse 4 to 31 and it is clearly talking about end times and those who keep the faith during those times.
 
poetryforjesus said:
Your first premise is WRONG. Salvation is NOT A CONTRACT.
If you want a contract that ensures your salvation, believe whatever you want.
However, if you want a living, real, good relationship with God, you must do what God wills. Otherwise, you won’t have a very good relationship with Him. If you don’t think that matters, again, believe whatever you want and do whatever you please.
You might think you have a contract with God, but you won’t have a decent relationship with Him.
Click to expand...
Did God offer you salvation?

Did you accept?

You have a contract. Ask any lawyer.
 
fermat said:
If I reject God at any point in my life, why would I expect Him to take be back without healing that breach first? If I accept Him and then reject Him, it only matters that I rejected Him. If I repent and return to Him with a humble heart, it only matters that I accepted Him again.
Click to expand...
Well that is part of the point. Because I breach a contract does not terminate the contract. Moreover, He does not eliminate the contract. Only the non-breaching party gets to decide what happens.
 
Xavierlives said:
Did God offer you salvation?

Did you accept?

You have a contract. Ask any lawyer.
Click to expand...
Legal Requirements for a Contract
1 A meeting of the minds between the parties demonstrating they both understand and agree to the essentials of the deal
2 Consideration (something of value exchanged by each of the parties, such as cash, goods or a promise to do something)
3 An agreement to enter into the contract (typically evidenced by both parties signing a written contract, although oral contracts can be valid too in some situations)
4 The legal competence of each party, meaning the parties are not minors and are of sound mind.

I don’t believe 1 or 2 or 3 or possible 4 have been met, so no it is not a contract.
  1. our understanding of God is incompetent
  2. what, of value, do we give God in exchange for salvation
  3. without 1, we cannot meet requirement 3
  4. I don’t think we have any legal competence to stand before God
 
mike52ad said:
What about the story about the sheep and the goats? Recall that the sheep ministered to the Lord and they were welcomed into heaven. The goats on the other hand, believed in Christ and thus were “saved” yet because they did not act on the word they were sent to eternal torment. I find that this story, in the words of Jesus Christ Himself, puts to rest the once saved always saved debate, at least for me.

We are all Saints once we are members of God’s Church, but we are on probation. We can, if we want to, using our free will throw away our inheritance like the prodical son did and if we do not come to our senses and return to God we will most certainly not want to choose God when we are judged. Remember that the son came to his senses and returned and repented. If he had not repented, he would have starved in the foriegn land where the pigs ate better than he did.

“Once saved always saved” is a VERY comforting thought, but it is not logical for a lot of reasons, but the story of the sheep and goats makes it very clear that we can choose to lose if we in our stubborness choose to do so.

That’s my story and I am sticking to it. 🙂

Jesus Christ is Lord !
Click to expand...
And what do the sheep and the goats represent? Some say the representation is the flocks which he has made a covenant. If we are to be called a sheep what must we do? Does simply feeding the sick do it? Does visiting people in prison? These are things required in our contract.

Lets say XYZ offers to pay me for 100 widgets if I show up tomorrow. Then I say, “nah!”

Then tomorrow rolls around and I decide to show up at XYZ Corp with 100 widgets tomorrow and I say, “here are your widgets.” They will say, Who are you? Do we have an agreement?

Performance of a contract does not make a contract. If you reject God’s offer and and then do a lot of good works in his name, you have still rejected his offer.
 
Xavierlives said:
And what do the sheep and the goats represent? Some say the representation is the flocks which he has made a covenant. If we are to be called a sheep what must we do? Does simply feeding the sick do it? Does visiting people in prison? These are things required in our contract.

Lets say XYZ offers to pay me for 100 widgets if I show up tomorrow. Then I say, “nah!”

Then tomorrow rolls around and I decide to show up at XYZ Corp with 100 widgets tomorrow and I say, “here are your widgets.” They will say, Who are you? Do we have an agreement?

Performance of a contract does not make a contract. If you reject God’s offer and and then do a lot of good works in his name, you have still rejected his offer.
Click to expand...
**What you are misunderstanding is that you can follow the terms of the contract (which is actually a covenant) and have a moral assurance of salvation. **What you don’t have is a guarantee, unless you remain faithful to the contract (Mat 24:13). If you break it - you lose.

As Prodigal Son1 has already shown you is that you CAN lose what you perceive to be salvation. You CAN lose your favor with God. The verses he provided obliterate your original point - no matter how many Scriptural or philosophical acrobatics you perform.
 
Evan said:
Legal Requirements for a Contract
1 A meeting of the minds between the parties demonstrating they both understand and agree to the essentials of the deal
2 Consideration (something of value exchanged by each of the parties, such as cash, goods or a promise to do something)
3 An agreement to enter into the contract (typically evidenced by both parties signing a written contract, although oral contracts can be valid too in some situations)
4 The legal competence of each party, meaning the parties are not minors and are of sound mind.

I don’t believe 1 or 2 or 3 or possible 4 have been met, so no it is not a contract.
  1. our understanding of God is incompetent
  2. what, of value, do we give God in exchange for salvation
  3. without 1, we cannot meet requirement 3
  4. I don’t think we have any legal competence to stand before God
Click to expand...
Great. I appreciate you testing God’s covenant with us. Any good lawyer will advise his client to read the fine print. But contracts can be ultra simple. Me: I will give you my car for your car. You: I accept. BAM! we have a deal!

So lets look at your points.
  1. I do not need to understand how IBM works to enter into a contract with them. I need to understand what is being offered and I need to be able to accept.
  2. This is by far is the best question out of your bunch. What does God get out of the bargain for exhange? To be perfectly honest it doesn’t matter. Back to our ultra simple contract, my car can be worth $10,000 and your car $5,000 and we still have a deal. My car can be worth $1 and your car worth $250,000. We still have a deal. Why you would make a deal need not necessarily be known. But my answer would be, he gets us in return.
  3. Contracts need not be signed to be valid. In fact trillions and trillions of contracts are unsigned annually. (hint: buy a burger and you have a sales contract).
  4. Umm… I agree. We must be competent.
 
elvisman said:
What you are misunderstanding is that you can follow the terms of the contract (which is actually a covenant) and have a moral assurance of salvation. What you don’t have is a guarantee, unless you remain faithful to the contract (Mat 24:13). If you break it - you lose.

As Prodigal Son1 has already shown you is that you CAN lose what you perceive to be salvation. You CAN lose your favor with God. The verses he provided obliterate your original point - no matter how many Scriptural or philosophical acrobatics you perform.
Click to expand...
No. I understand. I say you don’t lose your salvation. You enter into heaven stripped of your inheritance, but you still enter heaven.

Your brother who diligently worked all these years has heaven and his reward, but you still are in the fold, you are still a son. The father did not say, “look here comes my servant. Kill the fatted calf that we might eat for my servant has returned.” The son’s relationship with his father did not change. His inheritance did.
 
Xavierlives said:
No. I understand. I say you don’t lose your salvation. You enter into heaven stripped of your inheritance, but you still enter heaven.

Your brother who diligently worked all these years has heaven and his reward, but you still are in the fold, you are still a son. The father did not say, “look here comes my servant. Kill the fatted calf that we might eat for my servant has returned.” The son’s relationship with his father did not change. His inheritance did.
Click to expand...
Ahh no - this does not go with what Christ says. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.
 
Xavierlives said:
No. I understand. I say you don’t lose your salvation. You enter into heaven stripped of your inheritance, but you still enter heaven.

Your brother who diligently worked all these years has heaven and his reward, but you still are in the fold, you are still a son. The father did not say, “look here comes my servant. Kill the fatted calf that we might eat for my servant has returned.” The son’s relationship with his father did not change. His inheritance did.
Click to expand...
Catholics and Protestants (again using deliberately general terms since I cannot to speak for every denominations nor will I presume to) have disagreed upon how one is justified towards the Lord and that involves Christ’s sacrifice.

From what I understand is that some Protestants believe that Christ took the punishment for sin, including the pains of Hell, and hence once these Protestants have been declared “right with God” by believing in Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice and have taken Christ’s alien righteousness as their justification. God and the now saved sinner can now have a relationship as one between Father and son with Jesus as the Mediator.

Is that why you said the above about son-ship and inheritance? Do you mind explaining to me why losing the inheritance doesn’t mean losing Heaven?
 
If God is diong the choosing of who will be saved (predestioation, election ie Gods chosen people the Jews). Then whom God chooses to be saved will be saved. None of the elect will be lost.
 
Dancelittleewok said:
Catholics and Protestants (again using deliberately general terms since I cannot to speak for every denominations nor will I presume to) have disagreed upon how one is justified towards the Lord and that involves Christ’s sacrifice.

From what I understand is that some Protestants believe that Christ took the punishment for sin, including the pains of Hell, and hence once these Protestants have been declared “right with God” by believing in Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice and have taken Christ’s alien righteousness as their justification. God and the now saved sinner can now have a relationship as one between Father and son with Jesus as the Mediator.

Is that why you said the above about son-ship and inheritance? Do you mind explaining to me why losing the inheritance doesn’t mean losing Heaven?
Click to expand...
Well, it wasn’t my story so I can’t really go to far into it. But we can try to flush it out if you like.

Lets suppose that the Father is God.
Then lets suppose, I am the Prodigal Son (just to keep things friendly) and you are the Older Son (since you are older).

The tough one is where the Father resides and what is inheritance.

If my inheritance is heaven, then I can I take heaven and cash it in for a loose woman and debauchery and when I am ready, gain my inheritance again? No.

If inheritance is my rewards in heaven (and all the little things), then I can waste those on loose women and debauchery and never see them.

Don’t forget, this is a lesson of repentance. It is a lesson learned. But in the end, the prodigal son never gets his inheritance, but he is returned to his father.

Now you as the older son, have been under the watchcare of the father and have been doing his work. You will receive your inheritance. We were always brothers. He was always our father. Once in the house, nothing would separate us.
 
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