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Xavierlives
Guest
Yeah, I think I few posts back I said it, and it is worth repeating.
EDIT: Message #187.
- Status
EDIT: Message #187.
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jmcrae
Guest
So, “once saved always saved,” except for sometimes.
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elvisman
Guest
Yes, so let’s reciprocate some of it.
Nope - none of you have.
No - he just knows where to find Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18 and John 20:21-13.
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elvisman
Guest
This is what OSAS boils down to?
I can be saved unless I blaspheme the Holy spirit?
Is that what you’re saying?
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Xavierlives
Guest
Weird, because Merriam-Webster dictionary defines it as
1 : to go, proceed, or come after
2 a : to engage in as a calling or way of life : pursue b : to walk or proceed along
3 a : to be or act in accordance with b : to accept as authority : obey
4 a : to pursue in an effort to overtake b : to seek to attain
5 : to come into existence or take place as a result or consequence of
6 a : to come or take place after in time, sequence, or order b : to cause to be followed
7 : to copy after : imitate
Now, I haven’t spent a whole lot of time around sheep, but my neighbor has about 6. I have never know those sheep to imitate anything. But sure as shooting, he can get them to come after him. Doesn’t make much sense to me that Christ meant imitate for an animal that has a natural abililty to come after.
I don’t disagree that those who are saved are blessed, but I asked are you defining “Blessed” to mean “Saved.”If a person is “saved,” then he is surely “blessed.”If a person keeps/obeys God’s commandments, then he is blessed with the right to eternal life.
I’ll make a leap here are say, you aren’t going for works.
This is covered by another post.He explains it further:
Matthew 19:18-19
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
**
No person really believes in Christ unless he obeys His commandments.** If he says that he knows God (believes in His gospel), but he does not also obey His commandments, then he is a liar. **He does not actually believe God or love Him unless he obeys Him. **
1 John 2:3-5
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
**
The person who obeys God (keeps His Word) by keeping/obeying His commandments is the person who knows Him.** The person who says that he believes in God and says that he knows Him, but does not also obey God’s commandments is only fooling himself. He is lying to himself and others, especially God. All liars, if they do not repent before death, go to hell.
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
I’ll have to finish this later since I have an appt.
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Xavierlives
Guest
You might remember from post #1 I said
I do not have all the OSAS answers. I am attempting to defend it to understand it better (not change my beliefs, not try to convince anyone it is right, it is an exercise). I said so from the beginning and I am trying to be honest to form, but I just can’t answer things like OSAS, but {insert sin here}. I did it this way because I thought it was my best plan of attack. I know contracts and the comparison was relatively easy to make.
The other real thing I am trying to do is to get other to be able to defend your faith. If no one truly will actively argue OSAS here, then how can you answer it, unless you have a lively discussion.
If you would like a fun exercise of your faith, here is what I suggest you do: suspend what you believe and take some other belief and then try to defend it.So, “once saved always saved,” except for sometimes.
I do not have all the OSAS answers. I am attempting to defend it to understand it better (not change my beliefs, not try to convince anyone it is right, it is an exercise). I said so from the beginning and I am trying to be honest to form, but I just can’t answer things like OSAS, but {insert sin here}. I did it this way because I thought it was my best plan of attack. I know contracts and the comparison was relatively easy to make.
The other real thing I am trying to do is to get other to be able to defend your faith. If no one truly will actively argue OSAS here, then how can you answer it, unless you have a lively discussion.
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rev_kevin
Guest
Read post #194
That is what we teach at my church. Like I said we are not that different in some things.
But we do differ in other things that are not of Catholic belief.
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Xavierlives
Guest
Rev Kevin,
I think there assessment is based on your conclusions of being able to lose your salvation not on your status with the actual CC. You has said something un-Baptist and more Catholic so they were welcoming you back into the fold.
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SnakeMauler
Guest
I don’t understand the concept of “once saved, always saved”. I’m guessing this means you get baptized, then go out in the world and kill people, steal, and rape everyone, and committ all sorts of disgusting sins without seeking confession and still go to Heaven?
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SHW
Guest
Christ first saves us by His free gift of grace. He makes us holy by Baptism and thereby reconciles us spiritually to God 1 Cor 6:11.
**
However, only those persons who die with good works/deeds/fruits on their souls will enter into eternal life on Judgment Day.** Only those persons who either have no sin or else only sin not leading to death (which we call venial sins) on their souls at the time of their deaths may enter eternal life (after they have been made perfect).
The imperfections on a soul must be burned/purged away in purgatory, but he is saved because he has good works. Of course, a person who has been perfected in love before death has no imperfections on his soul and he goes directly to heaven after death Heb 12:23, 1 Jn 2:5.
However, those persons who commit sin leading to death (which we call mortal sins) and do not repent before death have no good works on their souls at the time of their deaths and so they are thrown/cast into hell. (Mortal/deadly sin causes the loss of sanctifying grace within the soul.) There is nothing good left on this soul so the whole tree/person is burned up.
The branch which has been broken off the Vine/Christ/sanctifying grace because of deadly sin has no life. It is a dead branch Jn 15:1-6. This is because when a person is in a state of mortal sin, God does not remember any of this person’s good works that he did when he was righteous.
1 Jn 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death… 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
Sin not leading to death is called venial sin. Sin leading to death is called mortal sin. The punishments are different for these two types of sin.
Mt 5:22
But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ (worthless) shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.
“You fool” is said in a derisive/contemptuous manner and this is a serious/mortal sin because it causes the death of sanctifying grace within the soul.
“Worthless” is usually said in a manner that is not contemptuous/derisive and so it is judged by the magistrate and he throws the person into prison instead of into hell. Prison is an analogy for purgatory in Scripture Lk 12:58-59. The person who commits mortal sin by derisively/contemptuously calling his brother “you fool” will enter into hellfire if he does not repent of his evil deed before his death.
Mt 7:19-23
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
The “tree” is the “person.” If he has no good works at all on his soul at the time of his death, then he is thrown into the lake of fire. We are all judged according to our works/deeds/fruits on Judgment Day Mt 16:27, Rom 2:5-9. Good deeds/works/fruits are **proof **that we believe in Jesus’ gospel. Evil deeds/works/fruits are **proof **that we do not believe in Jesus’ gospel.
Ez 18:23-25
Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?
OSAS is a man-made doctrine. Righteous persons can and do lose their salvation. Unless they repent before death, they will be damned.
to be continued…
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Xavierlives
Guest
Well most OSAS people would say it has to be a honest salvation experience (which there lies one of the problems). A person with a honest salvation wouldn’t suddenly turn into a mass murderer.
I’d say they would see the experience likely to go something like this:
- Bob is saved.
- He spends several years working and teaching in the church.
- Bob has a falling out with someone.
- Bob stops attending Church.
- He never attends Church again.
- Bob doesn’t rape, murder, pillage.
- Bob dies.
- Bob is still saved.
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elvisman
Guest
And it has already been proven many times on this thread that the context of Scripture speaks against OSAS:
Romans 11:22****
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”
Hebrews 10:26-27****
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
2 Peter 2:20-21****
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
**For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **
These passages speak NOT to “pretenders” but to true believers who knew and lived the truth and later turned away from it.
So your “Bob” scenario is not accurate. It would go something like this:
1. Bob is reborn (not saved).
2. Bob spends years living his Christian faith.
3. Bob tires of the Christian life, loses faith and turns away (John 6:66, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).
4. Bob later becomes agnostic in his beliefs and surrenders to worldly desires - fornication, drugs, etc. (John 6:66, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).
5. Bob dies in his mortal sins (1 John 5:16-17) without repenting and is lost.
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Xavierlives
Guest
Ummm… better check on this one. Because I can think of one person right off that doesn’t meet this criteria, and the Catholic Church recognizes him as saved and in Heaven.
Yeah, this whole purging thing seems a bit far fetched for me. I’ll agree no one is perfect in death, though.
And Jesus will be measuring the weight of my good deeds vs. my bad deeds? He might know me by name, but if the scale ever so slightly tips the wrong way… WHOOSH!(Which, BTW, you are heading into the area of Catholicism I find to be absolutely wrong)
Making Christians work for salvation violates what Peter said and is a tragic teaching. I only pray that this teaching is forgiven.
HUH? God doesn’t remember? What happens that makes him forget me?
I thought God taught in Genesis and Romans, that the wages of sin is death? There is a qualifier?
If you mean it isn’t showing love, then, yeah, I agree.
Yeah… Repent before death just doesn’t work for me either. I’ve know a few people who had time to put there affairs in order and I have known some people who didn’t. It doesn’t seem very consistant that, I’m driving in my car, someone sideswipes me, and I exclaim “RACA!” and then I have a head-on collision and find myself in hell.
I makes more sense that Christ is talking about a lifestyle. People who are consistantly not showing love and belittling people.
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SHW
Guest
Continued:
God did observe the apple from the time of its budding to the time of its harvest from before the foundation of the world (before He created it). If He foresaw that the apple was still attached to the life-giving sap (Christ) when it was harvested (reached the end of its life Matthew 24:12-14), then He predestined the apple to eternal life before He created it.
If, however, He foresaw that the apple was detached from the Tree/Christ/living sap (Holy Spirit’s sanctifying grace) at the end of its life, then the bad/spiritually dead apple was thrown into the fire of hell (God foresaw that this apple’s name was not found in the Book of Life on Judgment Day) Revelation 20:11-15. This apple was not predestined to eternal life.
Salvation is a life-long process. It is not a one-time event.
Matthew 7:15-20
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
"False prophets" are those persons who claim to be Christians, but they do not also obey God’s commands. A true prophet obeys God. A false prophet serves himself instead of serving God. He does not obey God’s commandments.
Some of the “fruit,” whether good or bad, may be hidden and only God is able to judge rightly whether a person’s fruit is to holiness or not 1 Corinthians 4:5, Hebrews 4:13.
Romans 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
Christ abhors barren trees. He saved them through Baptism, but they are only lukewarm towards Him. We must serve Him until we die if we desire to enter into eternal life Romans 12:1.
Revelation 3:15-16
I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
James 2:24
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
He first saved them by His free gift of grace, but they do not do the things for Him (the Father’s Will) that they were created to do Matthew 7:20-23; they do not serve Him. So, even though He justified them, they are not given the right to enter eternal life when they die Revelation 22:14. They will enter hell instead.
Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
First, Christ saves us. But, then we must do the good works that God prepared in advance for us to do (before the foundation of the world) if we desire to enter into eternal life when we die.
**
We are not judged by our faith on Judgment Day. We are judged by our works **Matthew 16:26-27, Matthew 25:31-46. Our life “works” determine whether we enter into eternal life or not.
Salvation is a life-long process. It is not a one-time event.
Yes, but God did not make the apple red/good against the apple’s “free will.” He also did not make any apples bad/rotten against their “free will.” The apples who chose to cooperate with His Grace through obedience to Him and who became slaves of righteousness Romans 6:15-19 were given the right to the Tree of Eternal Life (when they died) Revelation 22:14.
God did observe the apple from the time of its budding to the time of its harvest from before the foundation of the world (before He created it). If He foresaw that the apple was still attached to the life-giving sap (Christ) when it was harvested (reached the end of its life Matthew 24:12-14), then He predestined the apple to eternal life before He created it.
If, however, He foresaw that the apple was detached from the Tree/Christ/living sap (Holy Spirit’s sanctifying grace) at the end of its life, then the bad/spiritually dead apple was thrown into the fire of hell (God foresaw that this apple’s name was not found in the Book of Life on Judgment Day) Revelation 20:11-15. This apple was not predestined to eternal life.
Salvation is a life-long process. It is not a one-time event.
We can see some of the fruit on others’ trees. Some of the “fruit” on these “trees” is very visible to all persons who observe them.
Matthew 7:15-20
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
"False prophets" are those persons who claim to be Christians, but they do not also obey God’s commands. A true prophet obeys God. A false prophet serves himself instead of serving God. He does not obey God’s commandments.
Some of the “fruit,” whether good or bad, may be hidden and only God is able to judge rightly whether a person’s fruit is to holiness or not 1 Corinthians 4:5, Hebrews 4:13.
Romans 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
Christ abhors barren trees. He saved them through Baptism, but they are only lukewarm towards Him. We must serve Him until we die if we desire to enter into eternal life Romans 12:1.
Revelation 3:15-16
I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
James 2:24
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
He first saved them by His free gift of grace, but they do not do the things for Him (the Father’s Will) that they were created to do Matthew 7:20-23; they do not serve Him. So, even though He justified them, they are not given the right to enter eternal life when they die Revelation 22:14. They will enter hell instead.
Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
First, Christ saves us. But, then we must do the good works that God prepared in advance for us to do (before the foundation of the world) if we desire to enter into eternal life when we die.
**
We are not judged by our faith on Judgment Day. We are judged by our works **Matthew 16:26-27, Matthew 25:31-46. Our life “works” determine whether we enter into eternal life or not.
Salvation is a life-long process. It is not a one-time event.
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Xavierlives
Guest
Ok. lets try this for a second.
Jesus meets with the woman at the well. He knows her sin and he tells her.He forgives her sins and tells her to go and sin no more.
What happens if she does just that? What happens if she is blameless for the remainder of her life?
Isn’t she saved?
BTW, you can use reborn if you like, but I like saved better.
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Xavierlives
Guest
Well, this is where we disagree. Salvation is not works. Peter said so. Salvation is Grace.
Now being a Christian is a life-long process.
Hmm… so I see the Mormons doing a lot of good works. They are like the Second Catholic Church. How can their Bad tree do good works?
Again, sounds like you are talking about the Mormons, but if they are doing good works (and a lot of it) how can they be bad?
Umm… my scripture says something a bit different.
Really the dilineation is I want to do good works for God’s Glory. Not for my salvation. Not to overcome some scale of Justice. I do it because I want to see God Glorified.
You do good works because you think you have to do them to be saved. I’d suggest you try it my way for a while.
Again, you might want to rethink that. For some it is a one time event and the Catholic Church recognizes them as saved.
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SHW
Guest
Actually, it was the 9th definition for “follow” in my dictionary which fits the meaning of sheep and Shepherd pertaining to humans (not animals).
It is merely an analogy. Not all attributes for sheep fit humans. But, humans are lost without Christ’s example to follow/imitate Zechariah 10:2, Matthew 9:36. Adam was a terrible role model for us to follow/imitate in order to learn how to inherit eternal life Romans 5:12, Romans 5:18-19. Christ came to earth and He is the perfect role model for us to follow/imitate in order for us to learn how to inherit eternal life 1 Corinthians 11:1-2, 1 Corinthians 15:20-22.
Romans 5:10
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
We will learn how to inherit eternal life if we imitate Christ’s life in obedience to His Father’s Will until we die. This is how we shall be saved much more by His life. “Follow” means “to imitate” Christ’s obedience to His Father unto the point of death, even the death of the cross Philippians 2:5-9.
Luke 9:23
Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
Matthew 10:38
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
Only the people who do His Father’s Will shall enter into eternal life when they die Matthew 7:20-23.
In this case; yes. Blessed means saved. Cursed means lost.
Matthew 25:34-43
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
Both faith and works are necessary in order to have the right to enter into eternal life Revelation 22:14.
James 2:24
**You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only/alone. **
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SHW
Guest
True; but you are no longer a practicing Catholic (Catholic in good standing with the Church).
Entrance into Christ’s Catholic Church is through a valid baptism Matthew 28:18-20. This Baptism cannot ever be undone. Baptism leaves a mark or character on the soul and this mark is put on the soul by the Holy Spirit’s power at the moment the soul is redeemed from Original Sin (the soul (and person) are reconciled spiritually to God through the Words and water of Baptism) Ephesians 5:26.
A person who is baptized and redeemed from Adam’s sin can still forfeit eternal life by committing sin after Baptism.
2 Peter 2:1-21
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; …— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, 13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. 15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped[d] from those who live in error. 19** While they promise them liberty**, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
First saved, and then lost. It would have been better if they had never been baptized (come to the knowledge of the truth) than to be baptized/saved and then lose their salvation later through sin/disobedience Hebrews 5:9.
Persons who claim that they are free (at liberty) to sin after Baptism and yet claim that they are still saved with the right to enter into eternal life are false prophets.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11** But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother**, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”
Evil Christian “brothers” who sin will not be saved unless they repent before death.
Matthew 13:40-42
As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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SHW
Guest
Unless the Church has formally canonized a person, there is no guarantee that he is in heaven.
Nothing imperfect can enter into heaven.
Mat 5:48
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Mat 5:43-48
Heb 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
You do not understand. Mortal sin causes the loss of sanctifying grace. God destroys the persons who defile their temples with sin Eph 5:3-7. “Destroy” means “to damn.” 1 Cor 3:16-18 It is the Holy Spirit living within our souls at the time of our deaths who saves us. He is the guarantee of our salvation. If He is no longer living in our souls at the time of our deaths, then we will not inherit eternal life. God only recognizes/knows us at the time of our deaths if He is still abiding/living within us at the time of our deaths.
Mat 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Disobedience (sin).
Ez 18:24
But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
If you do not think that this is fair, then you will have to discuss this matter with God. Ez 33:12-18
This is a generalization.
Actually, “RACA” gets you purgatory. It is “you fool” which merits hell.
Look at Judas Iscariot:
First, he was chosen by Christ. He became a thief, and then he later betrayed Christ. Judas repented of his sin of betrayal next, but then he despaired and hung himself because he did not believe that God’s mercy could be greater than his sin. So, Jesus says of him:
"The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.” Mk 14:21
If he had have repented of all of his sins and not despaired afterward, then he would have been saved.
Look at the two robbers on the cross:
Mat 27:38-44
Then two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and another on the left.
…
41 Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders,[a] said, 42 “He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel,** let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him.[c] 43 He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”
44 Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing**.
At first, both robbers reviled Christ Matthew 10:33. They were both damned at that point in time. Mk 15:27-28
**
But, then one of the robbers repents:**
Lk 23:39-43
Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Paradise gained.
S
SHW
Guest
Which Scripture passage of Peter’s are you referring to?
You have judged them to be a Bad tree. God judges each individual’s heart/soul. He knows the intentions of each person’s heart. Even if they are in error doctrinally, He is a fair judge.
See answer above. Luke 9:49-50
What does yours say?
Good works are necessary for salvation. We are judged by our works on Judgment Day. Good works prove that we have a saving faith. Evil works prove that we have no faith. Jesus is the author of salvation for only those who obey Him until they die. Hebrews 5:9
Revelation 2:10
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
James 2:21-24
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24**You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. **
Some persons become saved through the Sacrament of Baptism and some persons become saved through Baptism of Desire/heart change.
We must continue to be saved up until the time of our deaths if we desire to enter into eternal life.
Acts 14:22
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
What happens if they commit mortal sins (sin leading to death) after Baptism? 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Romans 11:22
Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell (from grace), severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
IF we continue to obey His commandments (continue in His goodness), then we will continue to be saved. If we sin mortal sins, then we will be cut off from sanctifying grace and we will no longer be saved.
What matters for salvation is faith working through love. Galatians 5:6
Both faith and good works are necessary for eternal salvation. Those who do not do good works are lukewarm Christians. Christ will vomit them out of His mouth. Those persons whom He vomits out of His mouth are not saved! Revelation 3:15-19
There is no such thing as OSAS.
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