A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

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And as usual, you state your ‘anti-Catholic’ opinion without any sources, including scriptures. :rolleyes:
What do you want me to prove? That we are all doers of Scripture? Who was Scripture written for? The special ones and who are they?
 
What do you want me to prove? That we are all doers of Scripture? Who was Scripture written for? The special ones and who are they?
Scriptures are written for all, but there are teachings that have to be taken in context. Jesus spoke to His Apostles directly and we know what He taught them so we can accept their teachings. Paul even states all are not Apostles, but it seems to please you to just disagree with a Catholic, without any sources, including the scriptures you keep placing your interpretation over the Church’s with.

It’s easy to see your purpose tweetymom, and it’s sad.
 
Scriptures are written for all, but there are teachings that have to be taken in context. Jesus spoke to His Apostles directly and we know what He taught them so we can accept their teachings. Paul even states all are not Apostles, but it seems to please you to just disagree with a Catholic, without any sources, including the scriptures you keep placing your interpretation over the Church’s with.

It’s easy to see your purpose tweetymom, and it’s sad.
As well it is easy to see your purpose and it is sad also. I believe in the word of God and try to follow it. I do not believe that Jesus only spoke to certain people. I believe His word is for all of us not just the CC interpertation.👍
 
Scriptures are written for all, but there are teachings that have to be taken in context. Jesus spoke to His Apostles directly and we know what He taught them so we can accept their teachings. Paul even states all are not Apostles, but it seems to please you to just disagree with a Catholic, without any sources, including the scriptures you keep placing your interpretation over the Church’s with.

It’s easy to see your purpose tweetymom, and it’s sad.
What purpose is that? I can’t see it.
 
As well it is easy to see your purpose and it is sad also. I believe in the word of God and try to follow it. I do not believe that Jesus only spoke to certain people. I believe His word is for all of us not just the CC interpertation.👍
But you evidently can’t produce scriptures to support that view…

I told you, scriptures are for all, but not everything spoken is for everyone to act upon on their own. The scriptures I provided prove that.
 
That’s not a scriptural position there Rev…

Ezekiel: 36 25-27: 25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
God promised to restore Israel not only physically but spiritually. To accomplish this God would give them a new heart for following hin and put his spirit within them to transform them and empower them to do his will.

What do we have here? We have someone sprinkled with water and through that action, they are made clean from their filthiness, and they receive God’s spirit. This passage from the Old Testament shows us that God, by his own design and not that of men, uses an outward sign to bring about an inward change in his people – a foreshadowing of baptism in the New Testament. Notice how God in the old covenant was preparing use for what he gives us in the new covenant.
And now, let’s move on to the new testament to see the correlation.

Acts 2:38 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. If you want to follow Christ, you must turn from you sins and turn to God and be baptized. To turn from sin means to repent, changing the direction of your life from selfishness and rebellion against God’s law. COLOR]

Acts 22:16 16And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
If Saul had already been saved and his sins had already been washed away, then 3 days later he was told to be baptized and wash away your sins? Because Saul was already cleansed spiritually, these words refer to the symbolism of baptism…

Scripture plainly tells us that Baptism washes away sin; and through Baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit. Is it through baptism that we become Christians and members of the Body of Christ, or do we become Christians by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. There is no passage in the Bible that says we become Christians by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. While it is extremely important to have a personal relationship with Jesus, that in itself does not save.

1 Corinthians 12:13 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body [the body of Christ], whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Clearly, baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ and thus is the entrance into the new covenant with God, just a circumcision was the entrance into the old covenant with God. Scripture makes this connection for us in the following:

Colossians 2:11-12 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Baptism is the entrance into the new covenant as explicitly stated in the scripture above. So, is baptism salvific as the Catholic Church teaches? Once again, let’s go to scripture.

1 Peter 3: 20-21 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Just as Noah and his family were saved by water, water baptism now saves us. There it is; explicitly stated in the Bible. Further, let’s look at Jesus’ own words in John’s gospel…

John 3:5 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Further, let’s read on in context as follows a few verses later, after he finished his talk with Nicodemus…

John 3:22 22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. ???

What did Jesus do immediately after telling Nicodemus how he can be saved? He sent the apostles went out baptizing with water. See the context? Baptism is the context in which one must be born of water and the spirit. Further, look at all of the accounts in the gospels about Jesus’ own baptism. Jesus is baptized with water and look what happens to him when he comes up out of the water (or is sprinkled)… the spirit descends upon him – water and the spirit.

In Matthew 28:19 what did Jesus say in his final instructions to the apostles? Go therefore and make disciples of all nations getting them to accept me into their hearts as their personal lord and savior? No. It says:

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: The disciples were to baptize people because baptism unites believers with Christ in their death to sin and their resurrection to new life Baptism symbolizes submission to Christ, a willingness to live God’s way.

Why is baptism given such paramount importance in Jesus’ final instructions to the apostles if it is only symbolic? Because it is salvific! Scripture simply does not support a symbolic view of baptism
 
But you evidently can’t produce scriptures to support that view…

I told you, scriptures are for all, but not everything spoken is for everyone to act upon on their own. The scriptures I provided prove that.
No you did not prove it to me. Just that all have different works of the spirit.But one body, the body of Christ. 1Cor12:12-14For as the body is one and hath many members,and all of that one body being many are one body so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free and have been made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member but many…
 
**Joh 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water. And the eunuch said: See, here is water: What doth hinder me from being baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said: If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answering, said: I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch. And he baptized him. **

Mat 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

**Archeological discoveries in the Roman catacombs have long-ago proven that infant baptism was common in the primitive Roman Churches. Two clear examples, among dozens of similar inscriptions, are all that we really need to support this claim. A man with the resounding Roman/Latin name of Murtius Verinus placed on the tomb of his children the inscription: “Verina received Baptism at the age of ten months, Florina at the age of twelve months.” The date of this tomb has been firmly established by radio-carbon dating of the children’s bones as being 105 AD +/- 4 years. Another tomb, not far away from this one, has the inscription: “Here rests Achillia, a newly-baptized infant; she was one year and five months old, died February 23rd…” and then follows the year of the reigning emperor, which dates her death to 91 AD. [see W. Wall, “History of Infant Baptism”, 2 Vols., London, 1900. and other related articles in various archeological journals from early this century.] **
 
No you did not prove it to me. Just that all have different works of the spirit.But one body, the body of Christ. 1Cor12:12-14For as the body is one and hath many members,and all of that one body being many are one body so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free and have been made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member but many…
So Paul contradicted himself?

**1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and members of member.
1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?
1Co 12:30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? **

2Pe 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not Christ our Lord but their own belly: and by pleasing speeches and good words seduce the hearts of the innocent.

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
 
No you did not prove it to me. Just that all have different works of the spirit.But one body, the body of Christ. 1Cor12:12-14For as the body is one and hath many members,and all of that one body being many are one body so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free and have been made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member but many…
I think he is objecting to your use of “apostle.” He is using the literal definition of Acts 1: 21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."

23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

He seems unrelenting that you were using the term figuratively, as a witness to his life and a follower of his faith. He is veiwing it as an attack on the Catholic Church since Peter was an apostle.

I’d just use Matthew 28:18-20 and be done with the whole thing.
 
What do you mean your kind?
Now I at least say the denomination and Catholics do it also. Thats like calling the kettle black. Now I answered your question can you do the same and answer mine?
Funny i thought i was Catholic,thanks for telling me.
Self appointed to be lead by the Holy Spirit in all things.That kind of believer.
Only part…did you forget the part of thinking just what it meant for your parents to choosen by God for you?
 
I am a fairly new Christian. It was explained to me that the person who falls from grace was never truly saved. This might be semantics and an excuse to justify the fall. The thing that really confuses me is predestination. Is it G-d’s choice or our choice? With free will I believe I have the choice to refuse G-d’s grace and call to everlasting life. Is this right? I am choosing to be a humble and grateful servant and I pray that the hunger to serve will never leave my heart. In the end, I guess it does not matter whether I chose Him or He chooses me as long as I get to spend eternity with Him.

The problem I have with OSAS is the Catholic approach. Sunday morning I ask for forgiveness and before I even get home I am repeating the same poor behaviors without a second thought. If that is how you live your life, you/I should not be granted grace. But I know Jesus died for my sins. Then act. How do you know what you know? Now I am not saying works buy your way in but if you are truly saved then good works should spill out, naturally. You cannot have one without the other. This is very confusing but as they say progress not perfection.

Shawn
 
Hi, Xavierlives,

I hope both of you guys realize you are very blessed to have survived your near-death experiences… 🙂 Xavierlives - take better control of your asthma … and Prodigal, just catch the bus…don’t let it catch you! 😃
Wow! I’ve never had trauma experience quite like that, but I did once have an asthma attack that was so severe that I blacked out. I was in and out of consciousness from that point and while they contemplated intubation and other various exteme treatments (epinephrine), I remember reflecting on how thankful I was that I was saved. I eventually found myself in a bright room… of the ICU (you thought I was going to say heaven, didn’t you?).
As I appreciate the situation, we really do not have a lot of information on people making perfect acts of contrition while they are in the process of dying. So, we have a situation where a person is baptized, embraced Christ at one point in their life and then made a conscious act to separate ourselves from God’s Love (our full realization of this Love is Heaven) and now we are about to face all eternity opening up before us as we approach the White Throne.

Claiming, “Lord, Lord…” falls short. Looking at the ‘sheep’ assembling in one section and you are in the process of joining the ‘goats’ does not offer much promise. Ah, as the smell of sulphur opens up your nostrils and that crackling sound of the flames gets louder, you are suddenly aware that your mark of Baptism (of being a child of God and heir to Heaven) will now forever serve as a badge you have defiled. In brief, Dante was right! You can abandon all hope!

With all of the references given of those who once held to the Faith and then left - how anyone can make a distinction between being with God AND having some kind of ‘reward’ is beyond me. God is the REWARD. Heaven is being in the presence of God. Hell is the primarily the separation of the soul from God and secondarily, the physical aspects of fire and the like.

God bless
 
Various faculty members at the Southern Baptist Seminary at which I took my Biblical Greek and Hebrew classes told me repeatedly that “Once Saved Always Saved” (OSAS) was simply their (Southern Baptist Convention) way of presenting (“selling”) the Calvinist doctrine of Double Predestination in a positive way; nothing more, and nothing less. For reasons of evangelism, though, they seldom speak of Double Predestination to the laity. It is always OSAS.

The arguments for OSAS were (and are) identical to those for Calvinist Double Predestination, since OSAS and Double Predestination were and are one and the same. Reject the one, and you reject the other. That is it in a nutshell. IMHO, there is no valid theological case for either.

Blessings,
Irl
 
The words Jesus said are for all of us believers,we are all His apostles.
That is an ignorant statement.

Jesus spoke to individuals sometimes, such as John 21:15-18, where he asked Peter 3 times if he loved him. He then told Peter to feed his sheep and alluded to what manner of death by which he would glorify God. You and Rocket_Man BOTH need to read the Scriptures in CONTEXT.

Are YOU a devil (John 6:70)?

Not ALL of what Jesus said was aimed at all of us.
 
For everyone’s benefit here is Romans 11:16-24.
16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
So as to not belabor the whole thing.

God is the root.
The root begat the nature branches.
The natural branches are the Jews.
Christ begat the the grafted branches.
The grafted branches are Christians.
Any unfruitful branches are removed.
But can be regrafted by God.
Dead branches are burned (which I stated).

So, where is your problem? Your problem is you don’t like the idea that God can regraft branches back onto the stock tree. I’m sorry you have a problem with that but it is right there for everyone to read.
**Nope - I just wanted you to admit the folley of your defense of OSAS - whether you personally believe in it or not. And you have done just that when you said the dead branches are burned. **

Conclusion:
You CAN lose your faith - even if you were grafted in by Christ.


Game. Set. MATCH.**
 
That is an ignorant statement.

Jesus spoke to individuals sometimes, such as John 21:15-18, where he asked Peter 3 times if he loved him. He then told Peter to feed his sheep and alluded to what manner of death by which he would glorify God. You and Rocket_Man BOTH need to read the Scriptures in CONTEXT.

Are YOU a devil (John 6:70)?

Not ALL of what Jesus said was aimed at all of us.
Thank you for calling me ignorant. You need to pray about your rudenes.
 
Thank you for calling me ignorant. You need to pray about your rudenes.
**Not at all. I was admonishing you. **

As a Christian - I am SUPPOSED to do that (1 Thess. 5:14).
It is one of the Chief Spiritual Works of Mercy.

You should know that of you’re teaching RCIA . . .
 
That is an ignorant statement.

Jesus spoke to individuals sometimes, such as John 21:15-18, where he asked Peter 3 times if he loved him. He then told Peter to feed his sheep and alluded to what manner of death by which he would glorify God. You and Rocket_Man BOTH need to read the Scriptures in CONTEXT.

Are YOU a devil (John 6:70)?

Not ALL of what Jesus said was aimed at all of us.
Maybe not for you, I can tell that all of Jesus’ words have not penetrated.:eek:
 
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