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Mosacked
Guest
Am I God?
- Status
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brkn1
Guest
In the Old Testament, God was the only actual participant in the covenant with Abram.
Abram did not pass through the divided sacrificial pieces of the heifer, she goat, ram, turtledove, and young pigeon. To be a participant, Abram would have had to also pass through the sacrificial pieces during the same time when the Lord God passed through. That was how binding covenants were performed at that time.
Abram “…believed in the Lord; and He counted it to him for righteousness.” (Genesis 15:6)
In the New Testament, it was only between Christ, as both the Redeeming Priest and the actual propitiating Sacrifice (Himself), and His Father that the covenant was performed and satisfied.
Man’s role was/is not as a covenant performer of the New Testament.
Salvation is strictly the “work of God”, as Jesus declared.
It is only by the gift of true faith in that finished work of God that we receive salvation as a born again child of God. Good works will follow as evidence of a believer having true faith, but those works can not be any part of what actually saves us. God did all the work . The Lord Jesus Christ is the free (unmerited) Gift of Salvation to all that are given by the Holy Spirit to truly believe in Him as Saviour.
Abram did not pass through the divided sacrificial pieces of the heifer, she goat, ram, turtledove, and young pigeon. To be a participant, Abram would have had to also pass through the sacrificial pieces during the same time when the Lord God passed through. That was how binding covenants were performed at that time.
Abram “…believed in the Lord; and He counted it to him for righteousness.” (Genesis 15:6)
In the New Testament, it was only between Christ, as both the Redeeming Priest and the actual propitiating Sacrifice (Himself), and His Father that the covenant was performed and satisfied.
Man’s role was/is not as a covenant performer of the New Testament.
Salvation is strictly the “work of God”, as Jesus declared.
It is only by the gift of true faith in that finished work of God that we receive salvation as a born again child of God. Good works will follow as evidence of a believer having true faith, but those works can not be any part of what actually saves us. God did all the work . The Lord Jesus Christ is the free (unmerited) Gift of Salvation to all that are given by the Holy Spirit to truly believe in Him as Saviour.
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Xavierlives
Guest
Do you think you are?
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Xavierlives
Guest
But if man does not play a role then all would be saved. Alas, all are not saved because of free will. Man does play a role and that role is believing in Christ’s plan and accepting.
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Xavierlives
Guest
I will say, I’m not sure if the way I laid this was was a good thing or a bad thing. We have had almost equal discussion of the contract as we have the OSAS.
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Used2B,
Welcome to CAF - I think you will fid this a very enlightening and enlivening group…
Welcome to CAF - I think you will fid this a very enlightening and enlivening group…
Jesus said that “…they are no longer with us because they never were with us.” So, those that left Christ were never really born again or CHRISTians in the first place.
Maybe it is just too lealy for me … but, wold you kindly give the reference for this Scriptural quote? Thanks.
The Holy Spirit was sent to “seal” our salvation so we can have assurance of salvation (as Paul says “I tell you this so that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life.”)
You know, St. Paul is an interesting writer to quote - especially in isolation and out of context. You will recall that this is the same author who was concerned with working out his salvation, “…in fear and trembling…”? Yeah, same guy!
Ultimately, God knows who is saved and who isn’t. But, that is His business - not ours. Our business is to cooperate with His Grace and we DO the two main things Christ told us to do: 1.) Love God with are whole mind, heart and strength and 2.) love our neighbor as ourself. Notice, both requrie active participation - no sitting on one’s hands.
God bless…and…welcome back!
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elvisman
Guest
Xavierlives -
Back in post #690 - you told me that you were too busy to respond, yet I see that you’ve been reponding to many other posts since then.
Could it be that you had no response to the evidence I presented?
I think it’s only fair that you respond to my last post #687 before you take on other discussions.
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elvisman
Guest
You present the parable of the Wheat and Tares as proof for OSAS?? This is preposterous.
“Once a wheat always a wheat” indeed . . .
Perhaps you need to re-read 1 John 5 because it states very clearly that DOING the will of God by keeping his commandments is necessary for a true faith.
What do you do with Romans 11:22*? As I pointed out before, this speaks to endurance in faith*** - otherwise you will be cut off. **
You CANNOT be “cut off” from God if you didn’t belong to him in the FIRST place.
Here are a few more verses that show the context of what “believe” means. I am curious of how you’ll twist the meaning of the following:
Even Paul spoke against the false teaching of OSAS when he wrote, "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." (1 Cor. 9:27).
Matt. 24:4-5** – Jesus tells his disciples, “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.”**
Here, Jesus is emphatically stating that it is INDEED possible for a true believer to be deceived.
Matthew 10:22** – “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”**
John 8:31-32** – “To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."**
John 15:1-6** - "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.”**
Again – the branches that are cut off were IN HIM.
1 Timothy 1:18-20** –* “Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience*. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.**
These were true believers who “shipwrecked their faith”.
And now, here’s the fatal blow to OSAS:
Hebrews 6:4-6** – “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”**
Before answering – please heed the words of Peter about twisting the scriptures to your own destruction (1 Peter 3:16).
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brkn1
Guest
An heir to a dead person’s last will and testament does not inherit anything, if he refuses to come forth and claim that inheritance before he also dies. All do not necessarily get saved by the New Testament, if they do not believe and thereby receive before they die.
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Carlan
Guest
Hello Masters servant, oops did you miss it? St Peter, loved Jesus with his whole heart and soul, told him in the upper room he would never ever deny him, no not ever , even after Jesus said , “yes you will deny me three times.”
So what happened? While Jesus was being flogged at the pillar, Peter denied him three times.
When Peter was confronted, he broke down , broken hearted with sorrow, and contrition and repentance.
Look again at the prodigal son, who ran back into his father’s arms,
look at we today who have been saved and fall back into sin in a deadly way then repent and return to the Father, through the Sacrament, for forgiveness and absolution, reconciliation.
You are dead wrong when you claim people, who fall into sin after responding to God’s actual grace and accept redemption because of the cross, were never saved in the first place.
Ponder what I’m saying and think again about your doctrine of ‘Once Saved Always Saved’. Peace, Carlan
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Carlan,
Excellent response!
Excellent response!
God blessHello Masters servant, oops did you miss it? St Peter, loved Jesus with his whole heart and soul, told him in the upper room he would never ever deny him, no not ever , even after Jesus said , “yes you will deny me three times.”
So what happened? While Jesus was being flogged at the pillar, Peter denied him three times.
When Peter was confronted, he broke down , broken hearted with sorrow, and contrition and repentance.
Look again at the prodigal son, who ran back into his father’s arms,
look at we today who have been saved and fall back into sin in a deadly way then repent and return to the Father, through the Sacrament, for forgiveness and absolution, reconciliation. Make that fall back repeatedly!
You are dead wrong when you claim people, who fall into sin after responding to God’s actual grace and accept redemption because of the cross, were never saved in the first place.This is one of the biggest problems of OSAS, it sets the stage for those who like to think they understand the Mind of God. And, this is nothing less then a message from the Devil!
Ponder what I’m saying and think again about your doctrine of ‘Once Saved Always Saved’. Peace, Carlan
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Xavierlives
Guest
I have set aside about 15 mins a day to read up and try to write something somewhat meaningful I haven’t forgotten you. Trust me. I know I am going to need more than 15 mins to grapple with you.
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Mosacked
Guest
You obviously don’t even know what you’re typing. Go read what I’ve typed.
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Carlan
Guest
Thanks Tom, This rather bothers me… have you noticed when you call some out for an error they suddenly disappear without comment and show up some where else in the forum, I wonder if they are really here to learn about us and share.Hi, Carlan,
Excellent response!
God bless
God bless,peace. Carlan
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elvisman
Guest
I look forward to the match, my friend.
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Carlan,
Don’t be bothered … I think it is part of a process…
My guess is that many of these non-Catholics have just been programed to be hate what they think is the Catholic Church - and they have never really been motivated to move beyond this simple prejudice. At CAF there are enough different views to challenge this laziness and move those who are willing to research and learn something from beyond the comic-book version of religion.
It is sad when an objectively superior argument is presented and instead of acknowledging it for what it is - and, maybe trying to obtain more informaiton, they momentarily vanish. But, I think it is encouraging that they pop up somewhere else. Now, some just seem to be into mischief - but, others are genuinely embarrassed and do not know what to do next. Because CAF is so unique, they know they can learn from this site - and they really do not want to leave. I think that is promising - not all hope is lost so… don’t give up on them.
God bless
Don’t be bothered … I think it is part of a process…
To be honest, at first, I too was bother, puzzeled and then just annoyed. I have a bit of mellowing since then. Now, this is just a personal observation… but, this may be one of the few sites that allow members of other faiths to interact. For example, some protestant sites specifically screen out Catholics. Well, that means that none of these folks have the benefit of interacting with Catholics. Converesly, the CAF allows members of any faith or no faith at all to interact with us. And, that means we all have the opportunity to benefit from the insights of others.Thanks Tom, This rather bothers me… have you noticed when you call some out for an error they suddenly disappear without comment and show up some where else in the forum, I wonder if they are really here to learn about us and share.
My guess is that many of these non-Catholics have just been programed to be hate what they think is the Catholic Church - and they have never really been motivated to move beyond this simple prejudice. At CAF there are enough different views to challenge this laziness and move those who are willing to research and learn something from beyond the comic-book version of religion.
It is sad when an objectively superior argument is presented and instead of acknowledging it for what it is - and, maybe trying to obtain more informaiton, they momentarily vanish. But, I think it is encouraging that they pop up somewhere else. Now, some just seem to be into mischief - but, others are genuinely embarrassed and do not know what to do next. Because CAF is so unique, they know they can learn from this site - and they really do not want to leave. I think that is promising - not all hope is lost so… don’t give up on them.
God bless
C
Carlan
Guest
Again thanks Tom, we all learn from your wisdom, God Bless and peace to you and yours.Hi, Carlan,
Don’t be bothered … I think it is part of a process…
To be honest, at first, I too was bother, puzzeled and then just annoyed. I have a bit of mellowing since then. Now, this is just a personal observation… but, this may be one of the few sites that allow members of other faiths to interact. For example, some protestant sites specifically screen out Catholics. Well, that means that none of these folks have the benefit of interacting with Catholics. Converesly, the CAF allows members of any faith or no faith at all to interact with us. And, that means we all have the opportunity to benefit from the insights of others.
My guess is that many of these non-Catholics have just been programed to be hate what they think is the Catholic Church - and they have never really been motivated to move beyond this simple prejudice. At CAF there are enough different views to challenge this laziness and move those who are willing to research and learn something from beyond the comic-book version of religion.
It is sad when an objectively superior argument is presented and instead of acknowledging it for what it is - and, maybe trying to obtain more informaiton, they momentarily vanish. But, I think it is encouraging that they pop up somewhere else. Now, some just seem to be into mischief - but, others are genuinely embarrassed and do not know what to do next. Because CAF is so unique, they know they can learn from this site - and they really do not want to leave. I think that is promising - not all hope is lost so… don’t give up on them.
God bless
Carlan
M
mdifrancesco
Guest
Can you lose your salvation? Some things to think about…
Heb 10:26 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the advisories.” Vs.29 "of how much sorer punishment suppose ye shall be worthy of, who hath TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HATH COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AND UNHOLY THING, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of Grace? Obviously it is possible for a believer to sin willfully, and whether he repents again is also based upon his own will. ETERNAL SECURITY CAN’T BE TRUE, OR IT NULLIFIES OUR POSITION OF FREE CHOICE, AND WHY WOULD WE BE REWARDED FOR SOMETHING THAT WE DON’T CONTINUALLY CHOOSE?
Heb.6:4-8 "For it is impossible for those who WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE. Seeing they crucify to themselves the SON OF GOD afresh, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh often upon it, and brings forth herbs’ meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessings from God, but that which bears thorns and briers IS REJECTED, AND IS NEAR UNTO CURSING, whose end is to be burned. Clearly this passage of scripture states that it is possible for those who have once been enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost to Fall Away! It is so obvious he is speaking to believers here, and exhorting them to be steadfast in the faith! (So they won’t bare thorns and briers and BE REJECTED!)
2 Tim.4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts, shall heap to themselves teachers having itching ears. And they shall TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH, AND SHALL BE TURNED UNTO FABLES. Paul is distinctly speaking about those who used to hear the truth and turned from it, to follow after their own lusts, and went for the teachers that didn’t have sound doctrine. Heb.3:12 "Take heed brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING FROM the Living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called TODAY, lest any of you be HARDENED through the deceitfulness of sin. HARDENED, " (In other words, soft hearts can get hard.) One version says “if you fail to take heed, you will be cut off from the living God.”
1 Tim.4:1-3 “Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times, some shall DEPART from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their CONSCIENCE SEARED with a hot iron,” vs.16 “Take heed to thyself, and unto the doctrine, CONTINUE IN THEM, FOR in doing this, thou shall both save thyself, and them that hear.”
1 Tim.1:19 “Holding faith, and a good conscience, which some HAVING PUT AWAY, CONCERNING FAITH, HAVE MADE SHIPWRECK.” Paul is saying that some have PUT AWAY their faith, and have shipwrecked their lives.
Romans 11:22-23 “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God, on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS, OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALL BE CUT OFF. And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” This passage speaks of those who fell away from believing God’s goodness, and were CUT OFF. It states if we do likewise, WE SHALL BE CUT OFF. Doesn’t the Word of God state over and over again, our personal responsibility to CONTINUE… IN faith which works by love? The works we must do is BELIEVE. We must keep examining ourselves to see if we are in the faith. We shouldn’t have faith and be in active sin, and hope there will be no consequences. Those in this condition aren’t really interested in forsaking sin.
John 15:2 "Every branch IN ME that bears not fruit, HE TAKES AWAY, AND EVERY BRANCH THAT BEARS FRUIT, He purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.” (We have to yield to this out of our own free will. Some, who are IN HIM, choose to rebel against His pruning work in their lives.) If we don’t continue to abide in Jesus, we eventually will be cast forth as a branch that is withered.
IF YOU CONTINUE, IF YOU ABIDE, IF YOU REMAIN, IF YOU KEEP…Jesus clearly states that IF we are in Him and we fail to be fruitful, we will be CUT OFF. One translation uses the word UNLESS IN PLACE OF IF. Four verses in John 15 uses the word REMAIN, or IF (KJV), seven times! If we remain in Him and His words remain in us…we have to conclude that it is possible to FAIL TO REMAIN!
He also says to the believers, that those who do the works of the flesh, SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. He tells the Thessalonians about THE GREAT FALLING AWAY. Don’t you have to be joined to something to …FALL AWAY…FROM IT? He is obviously taking about those who have joined themselves to God through the Salvation of His Son, and fallen away from their beliefs.
Rev.3:5 HE WHO OVERCOMES, the same shall be clothed in white robes, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels. He who overcomes…This passage is clear that names can be blotted out.
You therefore, my beloved, seeing that you know these things beforehand, BEWARE LEST YOU FOLLOW THE ERROR OF THE LAWLESS, AND FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS. But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and of God the Father. TO HIM BE THE GLORY BOTH NOW AND FOREVER AND THROUGH ALL ETERNITY! (2 Pet.3:13-18)
WHY WOULD PAUL WARN US IF WE COULDN’T FALL?
Heb 10:26 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the advisories.” Vs.29 "of how much sorer punishment suppose ye shall be worthy of, who hath TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HATH COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AND UNHOLY THING, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of Grace? Obviously it is possible for a believer to sin willfully, and whether he repents again is also based upon his own will. ETERNAL SECURITY CAN’T BE TRUE, OR IT NULLIFIES OUR POSITION OF FREE CHOICE, AND WHY WOULD WE BE REWARDED FOR SOMETHING THAT WE DON’T CONTINUALLY CHOOSE?
Heb.6:4-8 "For it is impossible for those who WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE. Seeing they crucify to themselves the SON OF GOD afresh, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh often upon it, and brings forth herbs’ meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessings from God, but that which bears thorns and briers IS REJECTED, AND IS NEAR UNTO CURSING, whose end is to be burned. Clearly this passage of scripture states that it is possible for those who have once been enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost to Fall Away! It is so obvious he is speaking to believers here, and exhorting them to be steadfast in the faith! (So they won’t bare thorns and briers and BE REJECTED!)
2 Tim.4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts, shall heap to themselves teachers having itching ears. And they shall TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH, AND SHALL BE TURNED UNTO FABLES. Paul is distinctly speaking about those who used to hear the truth and turned from it, to follow after their own lusts, and went for the teachers that didn’t have sound doctrine. Heb.3:12 "Take heed brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING FROM the Living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called TODAY, lest any of you be HARDENED through the deceitfulness of sin. HARDENED, " (In other words, soft hearts can get hard.) One version says “if you fail to take heed, you will be cut off from the living God.”
1 Tim.4:1-3 “Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times, some shall DEPART from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their CONSCIENCE SEARED with a hot iron,” vs.16 “Take heed to thyself, and unto the doctrine, CONTINUE IN THEM, FOR in doing this, thou shall both save thyself, and them that hear.”
1 Tim.1:19 “Holding faith, and a good conscience, which some HAVING PUT AWAY, CONCERNING FAITH, HAVE MADE SHIPWRECK.” Paul is saying that some have PUT AWAY their faith, and have shipwrecked their lives.
Romans 11:22-23 “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God, on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS, OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALL BE CUT OFF. And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” This passage speaks of those who fell away from believing God’s goodness, and were CUT OFF. It states if we do likewise, WE SHALL BE CUT OFF. Doesn’t the Word of God state over and over again, our personal responsibility to CONTINUE… IN faith which works by love? The works we must do is BELIEVE. We must keep examining ourselves to see if we are in the faith. We shouldn’t have faith and be in active sin, and hope there will be no consequences. Those in this condition aren’t really interested in forsaking sin.
John 15:2 "Every branch IN ME that bears not fruit, HE TAKES AWAY, AND EVERY BRANCH THAT BEARS FRUIT, He purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.” (We have to yield to this out of our own free will. Some, who are IN HIM, choose to rebel against His pruning work in their lives.) If we don’t continue to abide in Jesus, we eventually will be cast forth as a branch that is withered.
IF YOU CONTINUE, IF YOU ABIDE, IF YOU REMAIN, IF YOU KEEP…Jesus clearly states that IF we are in Him and we fail to be fruitful, we will be CUT OFF. One translation uses the word UNLESS IN PLACE OF IF. Four verses in John 15 uses the word REMAIN, or IF (KJV), seven times! If we remain in Him and His words remain in us…we have to conclude that it is possible to FAIL TO REMAIN!
He also says to the believers, that those who do the works of the flesh, SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. He tells the Thessalonians about THE GREAT FALLING AWAY. Don’t you have to be joined to something to …FALL AWAY…FROM IT? He is obviously taking about those who have joined themselves to God through the Salvation of His Son, and fallen away from their beliefs.
Rev.3:5 HE WHO OVERCOMES, the same shall be clothed in white robes, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels. He who overcomes…This passage is clear that names can be blotted out.
You therefore, my beloved, seeing that you know these things beforehand, BEWARE LEST YOU FOLLOW THE ERROR OF THE LAWLESS, AND FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS. But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and of God the Father. TO HIM BE THE GLORY BOTH NOW AND FOREVER AND THROUGH ALL ETERNITY! (2 Pet.3:13-18)
WHY WOULD PAUL WARN US IF WE COULDN’T FALL?
O
on_fire
Guest
please correct me if I am wrong,but…in Mathew 25 the parable about the 10 virgins and the wedding,5 of the virgins didnt have enough oil for their lamps when the groom was about to arrive,so they left and went into town to get some more.when they returned it was too late and the door was already closed and they were locked out.but it says the groom delayed his arrival.had the groom arrived earlier, then the five virgins would have had oil left in their lamps and would have entered with the groom and the other five.isnt that the same as being saved at 1 point(they had enough oil earlier),but later they were about to run out and were locked out(lost their salvation because their lamps did not endur until the end?)…just a thought that came to me earlier today…
J
jmcrae
Guest
- Status