A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[PRmerger]

I can know.

See Below.

Do you believe there are there people who think they’re saved but aren’t really saved?

 

[Masters_Servant]

Ok. Did that.

Still have my questions: how do you know if someone was saved from hell?

Also, where is the term “saving faith” in Scripture? (As I said, I’ve just never heard of faith described in that term–and, I’ve never read it in the Bible, but perhaps I’ve missed it).

And another question: is there any person in Scripture that we know for sure was saved except for the thief on the cross?

First, you can play the word game called “show me the word” and you will lose every time; so I do not think you really want to go down that road.

Secondly, if you do not know what saving faith is, then there is a good possibility you do not understand the work of Christ on behalf of believers; therefore I conclude you do know what saving faith is as opposed to damning faith or professing faith in words only.

Third, we know all the apostles except Judas Iscariot were saved as Jesus told us in John 17. There are many more mentioned by name in Scripture . Hebrews chapter 11 would be a fine list and there are many more. This is just further proof of the sufficiency of Christs righteousness imputed to the true man or woman of God and the power of the New and better Covenant to sustain and hold onto each of the elect in Christ.

I find it difficult to believe you are asking legitimate questions because the answers are written all over the Scripture and even a casual read of the NT would shine light to an undiscerning person. What I am saying is I do not know or understand where you line of questioning or thinking is headed.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Yes, exactly, XL.

That’s exactly what the CC teaches and why you need to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation whenever you’ve been unfaithful to your Beloved Spouse.

The New Covenant and the Marriage covenant is comparing apples to oranges; they are both fruit, but not close to the same. Where does the Catholic Church state in its catechism that this is necessary. Only for some sins; not all sins, yet all sins are offensive to God; this is why we need the completed work of Jesus credited to our account in order to know we are reconciled even though we still sin.

 

[Masters_Servant]

**A contract requires considerations from BOTH sides. God’s consideration is eternal life…Our consideration is a life of sanctity & dedication to Him.

So, until you have fulfilled YOUR part of the contract, don’t ask nor expect for the other and falsely accuse God of unfaithfulness.**

A human contract certainly does, but the New Covenant is a divine contract. It must be this way because for 4000 plus years man proved he is unable to meet his obligations when he enters into a contract with God (ask the Israelites); therefore God sent His only Son that whosoever believes on Him will not perish, but have everlasting life. The New Covenant is a one way contract, and that one way is Jesus.

It is not Jesus plus you or Jesus plus religion it is Jesus and Jesus alone. Everyone has the free will to accept the free gift of God or to not accept it. Once you have made the choice based on the knowledge of the gospel, then you have made your bed; so to speak.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Interesting. I was not aware that there were Protestant denominations that claimed that they knew who was in heaven.

I stand corrected.

These people had faith that saved them from hell before Jesus’ atoning death?

Hebrews 11:39-40
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

He is speaking of the New Covenant because no one is saved by the old Covenant, which is why God has never changed in the way He saves; which is through Jesus at the cross. The OT looks forward to the cross and the NT looks back to the cross, but the focal point has always been the same, which is by grace through faith in Christ.

You should have known that Bible “thumpers” know who is in heaven since it is all over the Bible.

What I find interesting and a bit of a contradiction is that the Catholic Church states that anyone who claims to know they are saved commits the sin of presumption; yet the other hand has pronounced saint hood on many people and often based on little to no definitive information and at times on mere speculation or myth about someones life or at best a small fraction of their life and their are exceptions that are obvious such as the writers of the NT, which are all called saints and are obviously so.

Reminds me of “do as I say; not as I do” as the parent may say to the child. This is not a “put-down”; rather an observation based on reading all of the CCC and will be rereading it all over again soon to try to refresh and gain further understanding and also based on looking at the council decisions through the centuries with the most influential being the Council of Trent.

 

[Masters_Servant]

In the Old Testament, God was the only actual participant in the covenant with Abram.
Abram did not pass through the divided sacrificial pieces of the heifer, she goat, ram, turtledove, and young pigeon. To be a participant, Abram would have had to also pass through the sacrificial pieces during the same time when the Lord God passed through. That was how binding covenants were performed at that time.
Abram “…believed in the Lord; and He counted it to him for righteousness.” (Genesis 15:6)

In the New Testament, it was only between Christ, as both the Redeeming Priest and the actual propitiating Sacrifice (Himself), and His Father that the covenant was performed and satisfied.
Man’s role was/is not as a covenant performer of the New Testament.
Salvation is strictly the “work of God”, as Jesus declared.
It is only by the gift of true faith in that finished work of God that we receive salvation as a born again child of God. Good works will follow as evidence of a believer having true faith, but those works can not be any part of what actually saves us. God did all the work . The Lord Jesus Christ is the free (unmerited) Gift of Salvation to all that are given by the Holy Spirit to truly believe in Him as Saviour.

These are great points and worthy of all consideration.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Hi, Used2B,

Welcome to CAF - I think you will fid this a very enlightening and enlivening group…

It is our business to go out into all the world and to present the gospel that saves. It is known as “The Great Commission” and it applies to all Christians. Those that reject the message we can say remain in their sin and likewise those that accept the message we can welcome them to the Kingdom. However; you do make a point that God will in the end determine who professed in name only and who were sincere, but we are not left without testimony to near certainty with those that have made the profession and we can observe a transformed life. We can conclude with near certainty that this person was a true Christian; likewise we can discern the person who has made the profession and there is no change in the persons life; especially concerning sin. This is one reason why Jesus put such emphasis in the importance of understanding the Parable of the Soils or some say Sower.

Furthermore, we could assume that all who profess to know Christ do not and be right a majority of the time just based on the words of Jesus. That would be a futile exercise and prove nothing, which is why we are commanded to get the gospel message out to the whole world.

 

[Xavierlives]

Do you believe there are there people who think they’re saved but aren’t really saved?

I cannot see into the hearts of men. Ask Christ that question.

 

[Masters_Servant]

You present the parable of the Wheat and Tares as proof for OSAS?? This ] because it states very clearly that DOING the will of God by keeping his commandments is necessary for a true faith.

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What do you do with Romans 11:22***? As I pointed out before, this speaks to endurance in faith*** - otherwise you will be cut off.
You CANNOT be “cut off” from God if you didn’t belong to him in the FIRST place.

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Here are a few more verses that show the context of what “believe” means. I am curious of how you’ll twist the meaning of the following:

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Even Paul spoke against the false teaching of OSAS when he wrote, "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." (1 Cor. 9:27).

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Matt. 24:4-5** – Jesus tells his disciples, “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many**.”
Here, Jesus is emphatically stating that it is INDEED possible for a true believer to be deceived.

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Matthew 10:22** – “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved**.”

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John 8:31-32** – “To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching**, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set ar fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.”
Again – the branches that are cut off were IN HIM**.**

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1 Timothy 1:18-20out you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.

These were true believers who “shipwrecked their faith”.

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And now, here’s the fatal blow to OSAS:

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Hebrews 6:4-6** – “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”**

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Before answering – please heed the words of Peter about twisting the scriptures to your own destruction (1 Peter 3:16).

Elvis,

Thanks for the reminder in the last line of your post here; I suggest you heed them as well since you are the greater offender IMO and of course IYO; I am the greater.

As much as i would love to take what you have written piece by piece to prove my case again and again; it would be a work of futility. I say this only because if you believe the post above in any manner refutes OSAS; then there is no more discussion and you obviously feel that way and your mind is closed.

If I wanted to cut to the chase I would state as I have already; show me one or two examples of someone who had gained salvation and then lost it. And moreover someone who gained, lost and regained because in essence this is what you are claiming the Bible teaches; yet there is no example.

A final note; you obviously love to use colors, but responding to your posts is difficult because of all the extras that show up when one responds, but I’m sure you are aware of this and use it for your intentions.

Just so you don’t get over confident and decide, declare or otherwise “victory”; your statement on 1 Cor. 9:27 above has nothing to do with salvation and everything to do with heavenly rewards. Just the fact that you are not able to discern this simple verse speaks to me in volumes.

My only suggestion is to ask God for wisdom and discernment and He will give generously to those who are His.

May God bless you in this regard and try not to make much to do about nothing in regards to this post. We obviously read and understand Scripture in polar opposite directions; so we don’t have much ground for any debate here. Another way of saying we agree to disagree and move onward and we will let God separate the goat from the sheep when He decides to. I believe I am the sheep and you believe you are the sheep; one of us is wrong perhaps both.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Hello Masters servant, oops did you miss it? St Peter, loved Jesus with his whole heart and soul, told him in the upper room he would never ever deny him, no not ever , even after Jesus said , “yes you will deny me three times.”

So what happened? While Jesus was being flogged at the pillar, Peter denied him three times.

When Peter was confronted, he broke down , broken hearted with sorrow, and contrition and repentance.
Look again at the prodigal son, who ran back into his father’s arms,

look at we today who have been saved and fall back into sin in a deadly way then repent and return to the Father, through the Sacrament, for forgiveness and absolution, reconciliation.
You are dead wrong when you claim people, who fall into sin after responding to God’s actual grace and accept redemption because of the cross, were never saved in the first place.
Ponder what I’m saying and think again about your doctrine of ‘Once Saved Always Saved’. Peace, Carlan

You are presuming to know that at what point Peter was saved and you also are presuming that Peter lost His salvation because he was human in the fact that he sinned.
Those are huge presumptions that do not merit a favorable argument on your part. In fact based on your argument, no one can be saved.

Denying OSAS is denying the work of Christ was complete and denies the power of God to hold on to His own as He said He does and implies that one contributes to their own salvation in a meritorious fashion, which contradicts everything in regards to salvation. It also show that one has an incomplete understanding of what the New Covenant is and how it is appled and from whom it is applied.

 

[Xavierlives]

Now hit 'em with John 14:16! Quick!

 

[Masters_Servant]

Hi, Carlan,

Don’t be bothered … I think it is part of a process…

To be honest, at first, I too was bother, puzzeled and then just annoyed. I have a bit of mellowing since then. Now, this is just a personal observation… but, this may be one of the few sites that allow members of other faiths to interact. For example, some protestant sites specifically screen out Catholics. Well, that means that none of these folks have the benefit of interacting with Catholics. Converesly, the CAF allows members of any faith or no faith at all to interact with us. And, that means we all have the opportunity to benefit from the insights of others.

My guess is that many of these non-Catholics have just been programed to be hate what they think is the Catholic Church - and they have never really been motivated to move beyond this simple prejudice. At CAF there are enough different views to challenge this laziness and move those who are willing to research and learn something from beyond the comic-book version of religion.

It is sad when an objectively superior argument is presented and instead of acknowledging it for what it is - and, maybe trying to obtain more informaiton, they momentarily vanish. But, I think it is encouraging that they pop up somewhere else. Now, some just seem to be into mischief - but, others are genuinely embarrassed and do not know what to do next. Because CAF is so unique, they know they can learn from this site - and they really do not want to leave. I think that is promising - not all hope is lost so… don’t give up on them.

God bless

You sound like a politician; puffing your ego up based on your own human wisdom.

I would say reality says some people actually have other things in their life besides sitting behind a computer all day and feeling superior about themselves. These little side bar conversation that some of you have in the open forum as opposed to sending emails to each other patting yourselves on the back for such a “good job”. You have no idea how you look when you do these things. By all means keep it up and enjoy yourselves.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Can you lose your salvation? Some things to think about…
Heb 10:26 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the advisories.” Vs.29 "of how much sorer punishment suppose ye shall be worthy of, who hath TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HATH COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AND UNHOLY THING, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of Grace? Obviously it is possible for a believer to sin willfully, and whether he repents again is also based upon his own will. ETERNAL SECURITY CAN’T BE TRUE, OR IT NULLIFIES OUR POSITION OF FREE CHOICE, AND WHY WOULD WE BE REWARDED FOR SOMETHING THAT WE DON’T CONTINUALLY CHOOSE?
Heb.6:4-8 "For it is impossible for those who WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE. Seeing they crucify to themselves the SON OF GOD afresh, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh often upon it, and brings forth herbs’ meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessings from God, but that which bears thorns and briers IS REJECTED, AND IS NEAR UNTO CURSING, whose end is to be burned. Clearly this passage of scripture states that it is possible for those who have once been enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost to Fall Away! It is so obvious he is speaking to believers here, and exhorting them to be steadfast in the faith!

This position disproves your own assertion; how can one lose their salvation, then never be able to regain it? Answer; he is speaking to unbelievers who have gone to the edge, but never drank the “Kool-Aid” that saves.

(So they won’t bare thorns and briers and BE REJECTED!)

1 Tim.4:1-3 “Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times, some shall DEPART from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their CONSCIENCE SEARED with a hot iron,” vs.16 “Take heed to thyself, and unto the doctrine, CONTINUE IN THEM, FOR in doing this, thou shall both save thyself, and them that hear.”
IN faith which works by love? The works we must do is BELIEVE. We must keep examining ourselves to see if we are in the faith. We shouldn’t have faith and be in active sin, and hope there will be no consequences. Those in this condition aren’t really interested in forsaking sin.
He also says to the believers, that those who do the works of the flesh, SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. He tells the Thessalonians about THE GREAT FALLING AWAY. Don’t you have to

Here is Gods response directly to you.

And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: 13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15** For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.** 16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: 17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified with [him]. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward…

28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, [even] to them that are called according to [his] purpose.

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [is] against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; 34 who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Your theology ignores Gods providence and sovereignty. Your free will is the choice to accept what God has said and act on it by the power the indwells or to reject and to perish. Hope you rethink your positions; especially in light of professing to teach the gospel. What gospel is this? The “gospel of Jesus insufficiency” or the “gospel of you must do your meritorious work and God will do His”? When is the last time you prayed and thanked God for you good choices and your good free-will to make those choices or do you pray and give 100% credit to God? Think about how you pray and compare it to what you say; do they agree? Not based on what I read here.

 

[Masters_Servant]

please correct me if I am wrong,but…in Mathew 25 the parable about the 10 virgins and the wedding,5 of the virgins didnt have enough oil for their lamps when the groom was about to arrive,so they left and went into town to get some more.when they returned it was too late and the door was already closed and they were locked out.but it says the groom delayed his arrival.had the groom arrived earlier, then the five virgins would have had oil left in their lamps and would have entered with the groom and the other five.isnt that the same as being saved at 1 point(they had enough oil earlier),but later they were about to run out and were locked out(lost their salvation because their lamps did not endur until the end?)…just a thought that came to me earlier today…

Then it wouldn’t be the same parable with the same divine message or point of the parable.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Judas.

Peter.

Lets see Judas the Son of Perdition was chosen by God for a divine purpose; (He knows who are His and who are not) so the Scripture would be fulfilled? Was Judas ever saved? Nope.

Peter; when was he first saved, at what point and how do you know from Scripture? When He was chosen by Jesus or before the foundation of the world or both? Then, does denying association with Jesus to save your neck out of fear, in other words, does sin cause you to lose your salvation? If so, then why did Jesus need to die? Why did Jesus say He came to save the lost sinner? See the point?

You will never be able to give an example for many reasons, but primarily because you are not the sovereign God who predestined those whom He choose for salvation and also because it does not exist because OSAS is biblical truth. Those whom He has chosen will in deed make the right choice in accepting Jesus as both Lord of their life and Savior of their soul.

It is ones religion that restrains or prevents one from believing this reality; not the Word of God which teaches this reality.

We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? (Rhetorical question; answer you won’t and can’t) 3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death:(sorry, not the wet baptism, but the Holy Spirit Baptism) that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with [him] in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of his resurrection; 6 knowing this,*** that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; ***7 for he that hath died is justified from sin. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him; 9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him. 10 For the death that he died, he died unto sin once: but the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.

The Christian is dead to sin and alive in Christ.

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that [life] which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, [the faith] which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

So that thou art no longer a bondservant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Correct me if I’m wrong, OSASers, but I think they would respond that Judas was not ever really saved to begin with.

Which brings to mind an amusing exchange I read between apologist John Martignoni and a non-Catholic Christian:

*Every believer in once saved always saved that I have ever met, also believes that there are those out there who think they are saved, but really are not – the faux believers, as I call them. So, ask anyone who believes in OSAS these questions (this is from an actual conversation):

Question: Are ther e people who think they’re saved, but they really aren’t?

Answer: Yes, there are.

Question: Are you saved?

Answer: Yes, I am.

Question: How do you know you’re not one of those people who think they’re saved, but they really aren’t?

Answer: I know in my heart that I am saved.

Question: Wouldn’t someone who thinks they’re saved, but really aren’t saved, say the same thing?

Answer: I suppose so.

Question: Then how do you know you’re really saved?

Answer: I just know.

Question: How do you know?

Answer: I just do.

The whole point of this line of questioning is that, if it is possible to think you’re saved, but not really be saved, **then no one can have eternal security ***– no one can know for sure that they are saved – because anyone who thinks they’re saved could actually be one of those who think they are but really aren’t. (bold mine)

Allow me to help the poor Christian who was unable to refer to the Word of God.

First, Jesus said that most who profess to be Christians are not. Matthew 7:13-14 & and parallel passage in Luke are the most direct.

Second; how does one know?
Romans 8:10-16
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: 13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:

If this is not one’s reality, then it is better to believe you are not sure about being saved; least one should be self-deceived.

Galatians 4:1-7
1 But I say that so long as the heir is a child, he differeth nothing from a bondservant though he is lord of all; 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the day appointed of the father. 3 So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the rudiments of the world: 4 but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 that he might redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 So that thou art no longer a bondservant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

Same idea Paul reiterates. So if you have doubts, then their is probably good reason. If you have not experienced Romans 8 above, then there is no reason to believe with any certainty that one is saved; on the other hand if one has experienced this reality and truth, then that person knows without any doubt. The Word does what it says it will do, which is to transform lives and within that the reality of knowing with certainty as god has said through the Holy Spirit to which He also said the Christian is sealed.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Shame on you, PRmerger!

You went and popped their bubble!

Seriously, this is an excellent post and one deserving of real thought and prayer by all - but, especially those who have been caught up in the OSAS heresy.

God bless

Another feel good and superior pat on the back.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Tqualey:

Hi, Mdifrancesco,Tell me, does this scripture contained in 1John 5:13-21 give you a problem?

**13 I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God. 14 And we have this confidence in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in regard to whatever we ask, we know that what we have asked him for is ours. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. 18 We know that no one begotten by God sins; but the one begotten by God he protects, and the evil one cannot touch him. 19 We know that we belong to God, and the whole world is under the power of the evil one. 20 We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to know the one who is true. And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 21 Children, be on your guard against idols. **

While the operative section is contained in verses 13-17, John does present some good ideas that may be helpful…

God bless

I have no problem with any of God’s Word… 1 John 5: 13-21 is very insightful, and again, open to many interpretations. Here is what i think the meaning may be (purely my thoughts…):
There is sin leading to death: Because he speaks in context of a brother, it is probably wrong to see him meaning a sin leading to spiritual death; he probably means a sin leading to the *physical *death of the believer.

This is a difficult concept, but we have an example of it in 1 Corinthians 11:27-30, where Paul says that among the Christians in Corinth, because of their disgraceful conduct at the Lord’s Supper, some had died (many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep). This death came not as a condemning judgment, but as a corrective judgment (But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world, 1 Corinthians 11:32).

Apparently, a believer can sin to the point where God believes it is just best to bring them home, probably because they have in some way compromised their testimony so significantly that they should just come on home to God.
However, it is certainly presumptuous to think this about every case of an untimely death of a believer. Our lives are in God’s hands, and if He sees fit to bring one of His children home, that is fine.
Some believe that **brother **is used here in a very loose sense, and what John means by the sin leading to death is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is the willful, settled rejection of Jesus Christ. But this would be a curious use of the term brother, especially according to how John has already used brother in his own letter.

I do not say that he should pray about that: Apparently, when a Christian is being corrected in regard to a sin leading to death, there is no point in praying for his recovery or restoration - the situation is in God’s hands alone.

There is sin not leading to death: John takes pains to recognize that not every sin leads to death in the manner he speaks of, though all unrighteousness is sin.

Source: Is it really that easy for you to be deceiving? Are you really deceiving yourself? I don’t know, but “purely my thoughts”. Please forgive him Lord.
c. There is sin leading to death: Because he speaks in context of a brother, it is wrong to see him meaning a sin leading to spiritual death; he probably means a sin leading to the physical death of the believer.
i. This is a difficult concept, but we have an example of it in 1 Corinthians 11:27-30, where Paul says that among the Christians in Corinth, because of their disgraceful conduct at the Lord’s Supper, some had died (many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep). This death came not as a condemning judgment, but as a corrective judgment (But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world, 1 Corinthians 11:32).
ii. Apparently, a believer can sin to the point where God believes it is just best to bring them home, probably because they have in some way compromised their testimony so significantly that they should just come on home to God.
iii. However, it is certainly presumptuous to think this about every case of an untimely death of a believer, or to use it as an enticement to suicide for the guilt-ridden Christian. Our lives are in God’s hands, and if He sees fit to bring one of His children home, that is fine.
iv. Some believe that brother is used here in a very loose sense, and what John means by the sin leading to death is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is the willful, settled rejection of Jesus Christ. But this would be a curious use of the term brother, especially according to how John has already used brother in his own letter.
d. I do not say that he should pray about that: Apparently, when a Christian is being corrected in regard to a sin leading to death, there is no point in praying for his recovery or restoration - the situation is in God’s hands alone.
e. There is sin not leading to death: John takes pains to recognize that not every sin leads to death in the manner he speaks of, though all unrighteousness is sin.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Can you lose your salvation? Some things to think about…
Heb 10:26 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the advisories.” Vs.29 "of how much sorer punishment suppose ye shall be worthy of, who hath TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HATH COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AND UNHOLY THING, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of Grace? Obviously it is possible for a believer to sin willfully, and whether he repents again is also based upon his own will. ETERNAL SECURITY CAN’T BE TRUE, OR IT NULLIFIES OUR POSITION OF FREE CHOICE, AND WHY WOULD WE BE REWARDED FOR SOMETHING THAT WE DON’T CONTINUALLY CHOOSE?
Heb.6:4-8 "For it is impossible for those who WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE. Seeing they crucify to themselves the SON OF GOD afresh, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh often upon it, and brings forth herbs’ meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessings from God, but that which bears thorns and briers IS REJECTED, AND IS NEAR UNTO CURSING, whose end is to be burned. Clearly this passage of scripture states that it is possible for those who have once been enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost to Fall Away! It is so obvious he is speaking to believers here, and exhorting them to be steadfast in the faith! (So they won’t bare thorns and briers and BE REJECTED!)
2 Tim.4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts, shall heap to themselves teachers having itching ears. And they shall TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH, AND SHALL BE TURNED UNTO FABLES. Paul is distinctly speaking about those who used to hear the truth and turned from it, to follow after their own lusts, and went for the teachers that didn’t have sound doctrine. Heb.3:12 "Take heed brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING FROM the Living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called TODAY, lest any of you be HARDENED through the deceitfulness of sin. HARDENED, " (In other words, soft hearts can get hard.) One version says “if you fail to take heed, you will be cut off from the living God.”
1 Tim.4:1-3 “Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times, some shall DEPART from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their CONSCIENCE SEARED with a hot iron,” vs.16 “Take heed to thyself, and unto the doctrine, CONTINUE IN THEM, FOR in doing this, thou shall both save thyself, and them that hear.”
1 Tim.1:19 “Holding faith, and a good conscience, which some HAVING PUT AWAY, CONCERNING FAITH, HAVE MADE SHIPWRECK.” Paul is saying that some have PUT AWAY their faith, and have shipwrecked their lives.
Romans 11:22-23 “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God, on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS, OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALL BE CUT OFF. And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” This passage speaks of those who fell away from believing God’s goodness, and were CUT OFF. It states if we do likewise, WE SHALL BE CUT OFF. Doesn’t the Word of God state over and over again, our personal responsibility to CONTINUE… IN faith which works by love? The works we must do is BELIEVE. We must keep examining ourselves to see if we are in the faith. We shouldn’t have faith and be in active sin, and hope there will be no consequences. Those in this condition aren’t really interested in forsaking sin.
John 15:2 "Every branch IN ME that bears not fruit, HE TAKES AWAY, AND EVERY BRANCH THAT BEARS FRUIT, He purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.” (We have to yield to this out of our own free will. Some, who are IN HIM, choose to rebel against His pruning work in their lives.) If we don’t continue to abide in Jesus, we eventually will be cast forth as a branch that is withered.
IF YOU CONTINUE, IF YOU ABIDE, IF YOU REMAIN, IF YOU KEEP…Jesus clearly states that IF we are in Him and we fail to be fruitful, we will be CUT OFF. One translation uses the word UNLESS IN PLACE OF IF. Four verses in John 15 uses the word REMAIN, or IF (KJV), seven times! If we remain in Him and His words remain in us…we have to conclude that it is possible to FAIL TO REMAIN!
He also says to the believers, that those who do the works of the flesh, SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. He tells the Thessalonians about THE GREAT FALLING AWAY. Don’t you have to be joined to something to …FALL AWAY…FROM IT? He is obviously taking about those who have joined themselves to God through the Salvation of His Son, and fallen away from their beliefs.
Rev.3:5 HE WHO OVERCOMES, the same shall be clothed in white robes, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels. He who overcomes…This passage is clear that names can be blotted out.
You therefore, my beloved, seeing that you know these things beforehand, BEWARE LEST YOU FOLLOW THE ERROR OF THE LAWLESS, AND FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS. But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and of God the Father. TO HIM BE THE GLORY BOTH NOW AND FOREVER AND THROUGH ALL ETERNITY! (2 Pet.3:13-18)
WHY WOULD PAUL WARN US IF WE COULDN’T FALL?

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[Masters_Servant]

hERE IS MY TAKE ON THAT PARABLE (IT WILL COME IN TWO PARTS DUE TO THE LENGTH):
There are very important principles stressed in this parable which justify the closest attention and study. Firstly, there is the number of virgins: ten. That is the number of completeness, and is frequently used in Scripture symbolically for a large, unspecified number (e.g., 1 Sam. 1:8). Then there is the character of those referred to: they are “virgins.” This teaches that they are those who have separated themselves from the world to serve Christ: The parable shows that some of the virgins did not qualify for the marriage feast, implying that to merely separate from the world is to observe only the negative aspect of God’s requirements, and is not sufficient; there remains the need to apply the affirmative principles also, and manifest the divine qualities in action. The virgins are represented as bearing lamps fed by oil: symbolizing the Truth shining in darkness (Ps. 119:105; Matt. 5:16). It was the responsibility of Israelites to beat out olives in order to make pure oil for the lamps in the Tabernacle and Temple (Lev. 24:2). Similarly, it is the obligation of Christ’s followers to carefully study the Word of God, that they might radiate its light in doctrine and action. The 10 virgins were divided into two lots of five; another significant number. For five, is always associated with grace. In the case of the parable, five had grace extended to them; and five had it denied them; though, originally, both fives had been drawn by the invitation of Yahweh’s grace or favor. Five were wise. The word, in the original, is phronimos, and signifies that they were prudent, sensible, or wise in a practical way. They were not merely virgins of understanding, but virgins who applied the wisdom they possessed. There is a gulf of difference between mere understanding of knowledge and the practical application of it. The other five are described as “foolish.” This is translated from the Greek word moros which signifies “dull, sluggish,” and hence “stupid.” The Gospel Treasury defines the meaning of the word as, “he who sees not what is proper or necessary.” That being their attitude, these five virgins did not make adequate personal preparation for the important position to which they have been called. They “took no oil with them” (v.3). Actually, they did have oil in their lamps, but not in the vessels they carried with them, and which provided reserves of oil. They lacked those reserves. They were like disciples, who having come to an understanding of the basic doctrines of truth, and having been baptized, failed to add to their knowledge of the will and purpose of God. They lack reserves of knowledge, and in times of stress or trial they more easily succumb to the pressures of life. On the other hand, the wise “took oil in their vessels with their lamps” (v.4). They had ample reserves for any emergency. The most solemn feature of the parable is the statement of v.5: “While the bridegroom tarried (cp. 2 Pet. 3:9), they all slumbered and slept.” They had anticipated that the bridegroom would come earlier than he did, but when this did not prove to be the case they became drowsy through the long wait. Some began to slumber, their heads nodding through tiredness, whilst others fell into a deep sleep. (The word “slumber” comes from a word signifying to nod the head.)

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