Fair enough, MS.
Are pats on the back condemned in Scripture?Another feel good and superior pat on the back.
How about salvati per fidem? Would that be close enough? (Ephesians 2:8)Fair enough, MS.
However, have you ever asked a Catholic to play this word game yourself?
Just wondering.
Even if you have done it in the past (and I’m willing to bet that you have), then I suggest you not criticize Catholics for turning the tables back on you.
For the phrase “saving faith” is not in the Bible. Pure and simple
Amen to that! Well said…
When I said “purely my thoughts”… it was based on the scriptures given in my text. What I partially said was “my interpretation”. If I don’t say that people get upset… I see nothing in there I need to be forgiven for.
**First of all, I couldn’t possibly show you an example of somebody who had salvation and lost it because I do not possess the beatific vision and do not know the state of people’s souls. ****
I’d be willing to accept that if you’d be willing to accept that 1 Cor 3:13 suggests St. Paul’s reference to purgatory.
So, let me address two posts here - similar thoughts, may have a similar response…
It is our business to go out into all the world and to present the gospel that saves. It is known as “The Great Commission” …You are so right about this, MS./COLOR]
Those that reject the message we can say remain in their sin and likewise those that accept the message we can welcome them to the Kingdom. It would be best to welcome them once they get there - not prematurely as the OSAS heresy seems to encourage…
However; you do make a point that God will in the end determine who professed in name only and who were sincere, but we are not left without testimony to near certainty with those that have made the profession and we can observe a transformed life. Ah, ‘…near certainty…’ and you are going to test this hypothesis how? Seriously, MS, man is nothing if not inconsistent…
We can conclude with near certainty that this person was a true Christian; likewise we can discern the person who has made the profession and there is no change in the persons life; especially concerning sin. I think you are getting carried away with ths ‘…near certainty…’. We all carry our treasure in clay pots.
This is one reason why Jesus put such emphasis in the importance of understanding the Parable of the Soils or some say Sower. Yes, understanding these parables would be good idea.,
God bless
The entire 25th Chapter of Matthew causes significant Scriptural problems for the OSAS heresy. But, you know what … we are all bumping up against a mystery - the fact that God knew from all eternity what was going to happen and still allowing man the full use of his free will.
I’ll accept it as a judgment.I’d be willing to accept that if you’d be willing to accept that 1 Cor 3:13 suggests St. Paul’s reference to purgatory.
Just couldn’t help yourself; I’ll spare you by not participating in the “word” game.Fair enough, MS.
However, have you ever asked a Catholic to play this word game yourself?
Just wondering.
Even if you have done it in the past (and I’m willing to bet that you have), then I suggest you not criticize Catholics for turning the tables back on you.
For the phrase “saving faith” is not in the Bible. Pure and simple
That explains why your church, your bible and your leaders and probably yourself all refer to people as Saint Paul and Saint Peter and a litany of other canonized saints; yet as you said you can’t know.
He denied Christ; can you think of a greater sin than that? If you were to deny Christ and then die before you were able or willing to repent, would you be buried in your church as a saved member, or would you be considered a reprobate who “was never saved, to begin with.”
Anyone who perseveres in holiness can be saved - it is not as great a task as people make it out to be - it is simply a matter of saying what is true and doing what is right. It’s not “work” to do these things. There are lots of people who, after being baptized, and being brought up in the Christian faith, never sinned. Did they save themselves by works? Hardly - Christ saved them - and then they didn’t fall back into the pit any more. Perhaps they did nothing at all - perhaps they died before reaching the age of reason - or perhaps they did only those ordinary things that pertain to their state in life. But if they didn’t do anything bad, and didn’t omit to do their duty, then they never sinned.
Yes - but if we could not be damned for our sins, then there was nothing for Jesus to die for, on the Cross.
To save us from our sins, and to give us the grace to not sin any more.
Hi, MS,
You certainly have been a hard-working poster…
Here is your statement from post #801:
A human contract certainly does, but the New Covenant is a divine contract… ; No argument there
therefore God sent His only Son that whosoever believes on Him will not perish, but have everlasting life. The New Covenant is a one way contract, and that one way is Jesus.
Your quotation is accurate, but, it appears it over-simplifies to the point of distortion if you leave it there. You see, God did not say that. “Everyone who says, ‘Lord! Lord!’ WILL enter the Kingdom of Heaven” IF that were the case, then your quote could stand as it and that would be that. But, please note, Christ did say other thngs. For example, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” This tells me that it is possible to ‘love’ Christ and do as we please. Naturally, this type of ‘love’ would be a fantasy or a mere show - and not keeping with what Christ said. For some people, appearance is better then reality. It is not oversimplified; God wrote it not me, but God uses an economy of words to speak volumes such as the case above. The question that should come to mind is “what does it mean to believe”; when you answer that, then the simplicity is not so simplistic because to believe is to accept the nature, character and promises of God by faith. It is the human thought process that oversimplifies.
Did Jesus come to heal the sick or not? So everyone who is saved is saved despite themselves.
quote]Let me give you some examples from the Gospel of Matthew. You will recall that a certain Master had 3 servants and He gave each some talents according to their ability. Note he did not give them the same talents and he did not say, ‘Here, have a good time!’ No. Each had to WORK if he was going to be rewarded. We note this in how differently Servant 1 & 2 were treated contrasted with Servant 3. The Master condemns #3 for being wicked and lazy - hardly a ringing endorsement for OSAS. You don’t understand the points of the parable and servant #3 is not a Christian.
Again you miss the entire point of the parable; go and look at the previous parables and the over all theme of the entire section, then you might understand the meaning of the parable.
God bless
i can only suggest you go back and study a little harder and get some good commentaries to assist you in your understanding. You can deny OSAS and will because you are following Catholic doctrine as one expects in a Catholic forum, but it doesn’t change the truth of OSAS. God looses none of His own and if He is able to save the Christian in His death how much more can He hold onto them in his life? Paul spoke to this because he was a OSAS person just a Jesus and all the writers of the NT are.
It seems to me that many do not understand how free-will works and what the death of the “old man” and the rebirth of the “New Creation” in Christ Jesus. becoming a Christian in essence is totally denying self, which includes giving up the old “free-will” and completely putting ones trust in Christ who is able and willing to work in and through His “New Creation”.
Thank you Tom for this wonderful post, God bless you and yours, Peace, CarlanHi, On Fire,
I do not think you’re wrong at all… in fact, I think you have hit the nail on the head!
The entire 25th Chapter of Matthew causes significant Scriptural problems for the OSAS heresy. But, you know what … we are all bumping up against a mystery - the fact that God knew from all eternity what was going to happen and still allowing man the full use of his free will.
While we can cheer on Peter for his sorrow and contrition at denying Christ - and then marvel at the Power of the Holy Spirit enliven this old fisherman on Pentecost Sunday … we are confounded by the betrayal and apparent despair of Judas. No one on this side of death can claim Judas is in Hell. The best we can do is say that we do not know. The only one we do know who is in Hell is the Devil and a third of the angels who followed this incredible fool into the firey pit.
Men have lost their sanity trying to come up with why this and why that. Look at the lenghts that Calvin suffered trying to understand this mystery. All he wound up doing was saying he was saved and essentially had doubts about everyone else - and was convinced that those who did not agree with him were damned! Calvin is the poster boy for claiming to have an answer when none is possible.
Christ was clear as to our responsibilities: we are to believe in Christ as our Savior and then DO what he told us to do: be baptized, eat His Flesh, Confess our sins to the men He gave the Power to forgive sins to, follow the Church He gave us in Matt 16 (and, that would be the Catholic Church). While we can marvel at the foolishness of the 5 virgins who were locked out - we should remember that not everyone who cries, “Lord! Lord!” is going to be with Christ in heaven.
God bless
MS, I will simply suggest that you turn your suggestion around on yourself and do some deep pondering.
CarlanEHHH! Wrong again.That explains why your church, your bible and your leaders and probably yourself all refer to people as Saint Paul and Saint Peter and a litany of other canonized saints; yet as you said you can’t know.
All who enter the race are in reference to Christians and the last time I looked only Christians will be in heaven and the last time I checked, no Christian will be in hell. Perhaps you have a different theology that contradicts this position so clearly taught in the passage in question.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then {do it} to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
Paul give the physical comparison to a spiritual goal, which is the winner will receive a “wreath” or a prize; likewise Christians will be judged according to the race they ran and rewarded according to the manner in which you ran the race. You can commit sins that will remove your rewards; yet you will be in heaven.
But as I said before we will both disagree till we are blue in the face so I pray God will bless you and I hope you feel the same.:hug3:
What sin is there that one can commit and still go to heaven? Please do keep in mind your own theology regarding "all sin is detestable to God and worthy of punishment.
