A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[tweetymom]

I’ll go ahead and restate a similar point I made in a different thread. I am a firm proponent of OSAS. If I, a totally depraved sinner, make a sincere decision to acknowledge my transgressions against God, confess my sins, repent from my evildoing, and commit my life to following Jesus and practicing righteousness – if I truly do this, then I have become a child of God for all eternity. My sinful lifestyle, which results in death, is no more; I have been made spiritually alive through Christ (John 5:24; Romans 6:2, 11, 14, 20-23). I have assurance that I will be going to heaven when I die (Hebrews 10:1, 14, 17-23; 11:1; 1st John 1:9; 2:1-6). And once I have become one of the chosen people of God, He will never let me out of His hands, no matter how much I’ve messed up (Romans 8:38-39). Before I was even born, God knew I would follow Him (Jeremiah 1:5; Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1:4-6; 2:8-10 1st Peter 1:1-2; 2:6, 9). My Father knows the very hairs on my head, and nothing in this world will cause Him to let me go.

Now of course, I am not saying that I will never sin again just because God has me in my hands. As long as I am in this world, there will be times when I will distance myself from God. But I no longer have a sinful* lifestyle*. Although I still do sin, I no longer practice sin; instead, I practice righteousness. I think what Hebrews 10:26-27 is really referring to are the people who call themselves “Christians” but in reality they still practice wickedness. If this is the case, those “Christians” never really were saved in the first place. In my view, that passage does not mean that if Christians aren’t sinless, or if they don’t constantly confess their sins every time they commit a new one, they will ‘lose’ their salvation.

That make sense?

Makes sense to me. God Bless

 

[jmcrae]

You can commit sins that will remove your rewards; yet you will be in heaven.

The “reward” is to be in Heaven. If you “lose your reward” that means that you will not go to Heaven. There are no “things” in Heaven that you will be able to either have or not have. You will have detached yourself from all materialistic desires, so the concept of a material “reward” won’t even exist there, for you.

 

[Truth_Seeker17]

The “reward” is to be in Heaven. If you “lose your reward” that means that you will not go to Heaven. There are no “things” in Heaven that you will be able to either have or not have. You will have detached yourself from all materialistic desires, so the concept of a material “reward” won’t even exist there, for you.

Okay, so in your view, do you think that everyone’s experience in heaven will be ‘the same’ in terms of how joyful the experience is, since the only reward we can obtain is the admittance into heaven itself?

 

[jmcrae]

Okay, so in your view, do you think that everyone’s experience in heaven will be ‘the same’ in terms of how joyful the experience is, since the only reward we can obtain is the admittance into heaven itself?

We will all receive the fullest amount of joy that we can receive. Mine might be “different than” yours, but neither of us will feel any jealousy or pity for the other, since we will both be feeling more joy than either of us ever thought possible.

 

[Truth_Seeker17]

We will all receive the fullest amount of joy that we can receive. Mine might be “different than” yours, but neither of us will feel any jealousy or pity for the other, since we will both be feeling more joy than either of us ever thought possible.

Okay, sounds good!

 

[on_fire]

As a Catholic I believe what the Bible says in terms of what one must do in order to get into Heaven,some of which are----Have faith (Romans 3:28,John 3:16,1John 4:15) forgive the sins of others(Mathew 6: 14-15) care for ones family(1 Tim 5:8); feed the hungry,clothe the naked,visit the sick and imprisoned(Math 25:31-46); keep the Commandments (Math 19 :17 and 1 John 2:3-4); love my brother (1John 2:10)deny ourselves and pick up our cross daily(Luke 9:23); do the will of the Father(Math 7 :21) eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man (John 6:51-58); give a return for the talents the Master has given us (Math 25 :14-30);be baptized (John 3:3-5, 1Peter 3: 20-21,Mark 16:16)confess our sins (1 John 1:9)…ALL BY THE GRACE OF GOD

 

[Carlan]

Okay, so in your view, do you think that everyone’s experience in heaven will be ‘the same’ in terms of how joyful the experience is, since the only reward we can obtain is the admittance into heaven itself?

Hi Truth seeker, We can not gaze on the face of God with anything less than a pure heart, that pure heart becomes the reality of purification(growth in holiness). I believe after we reach heaven we will continue to grow into the Glory of God. We must have the pure heart to get there and afterwood we move from Glory to Glory. Sound good to you???Peace, Carlan

 

[Xavierlives]

MS, I will simply suggest that you turn your suggestion around on yourself and do some deep pondering.
My favorite hobby is gardening, and for those of you who rejoice in the false doctrine of OSAS, May I tell you , The garden is not made by saying “How Lovely!” and then lying in the shade. Enlighten us dear Lord! Peace,Carlan

Just a side question, but everyone is talking about the poor sap who falls away. Lets take a person at the other extreme of the OSAS line. Are you saying a wise OSAS follower, doing what is expected by Christ is also condemned because they hold the OSAS belief?

 

[Truth_Seeker17]

Hi Truth seeker, We can not gaze on the face of God with anything less than a pure heart, that pure heart becomes the reality of purification(growth in holiness). I believe after we reach heaven we will continue to grow into the Glory of God. We must have the pure heart to get there and afterwood we move from Glory to Glory. Sound good to you???Peace, Carlan

Yes indeed my friend. Thanks!

 

[Carlan]

Just a side question, but everyone is talking about the poor sap who falls away. Lets take a person at the other extreme of the OSAS line. Are you saying a wise OSAS follower, doing what is expected by Christ is also condemned because they hold the OSAS belief?

What I am saying Xavier, is that the OSAS person, who thinks his future sins are over looked because his acceptance of Christ’s redemption in the begining took care of all sins past,presant and*** future*** ,he is kidding himself. Look those poor saps who fall away in temptaion,if they do not repent before the end they go to you know where You say a wise OSASer, will never fall to temptation???So he is already a Saint and don’t have to worry 'cause he aint ever going to fall 'cause he is wise. Think, loving and knowing and wanting to keep our Lords commandments does’nt mean we will never ever give into temptaion, remember Peter ? the cock crowed twice, and Judas went as far as doing himself in, and then there is the prodical son. t:nope: Peace, Carlan

O

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[Xavierlives]

What I am saying Xavier, is that the OSAS person, who thinks his future sins are over looked because his acceptance of Christ’s redemption in the begining took care of all sins past,presant and*** future*** ,he is kidding himself. Look those poor saps who fall away in temptaion,if they do not repent before the end they go to you know where You say a wise OSASer, will never fall to temptation???So he is already a Saint and don’t have to worry 'cause he aint ever going to fall 'cause he is wise. Think, loving and knowing and wanting to keep our Lords commandments does’nt mean we will never ever give into temptaion, remember Peter ? the cock crowed twice, and Judas went as far as doing himself in, and then there is the prodical son. t:nope: Peace, Carlan

Hmm… hold on now. I thing we are heading down a path I never even thought about.

So, the father of the Catholic Church, Peter’s denial of Christ was counts as the Big Denial? If he would have died at that very moment… adios, Peter?

 

[Carlan]

Hmm… hold on now. I thing we are heading down a path I never even thought about.

So, the father of the Catholic Church, Peter’s denial of Christ was counts as the Big Denial? If he would have died at that very moment… adios, Peter?

Well, what do you think, put yourself in Peter’s place, you Deny Christ and die the minute after the denial???,Read the Scripture Xavier, the passover meal, Jesus tells Peter he will deny him and the cock will crow twice, of course when Peter came to his senses when that actually happened , he fell to the ground in repentance and sorrow, read all about it, then tell me it show we can all be serious sinners even the Pope.Peace , Carlan

 

[Truth_Seeker17]

Well, what do you think, put yourself in Peter’s place, you Deny Christ and die the minute after the denial???,Read the Scripture Xavier, the passover meal, Jesus tells Peter he will deny him and the cock will crow twice, of course when Peter came to his senses when that actually happened , he fell to the ground in repentance and sorrow, read all about it, then tell me it show we can all be serious sinners even the Pope.Peace , Carlan

Which is exactly what any other true Christian would do - be remorseful for the sin they’ve committed. In my opinion, the best way for someone to self-examine himself and determine whether or not he really is saved is his response after he sins. Is he sorrowful and remorseful, or does he just blow it off and not care? A Christian doing the former is saved and always was saved; a ‘Christian’ doing the latter is not saved and never was saved in the first place.

 

[Xavierlives]

Well, what do you think, put yourself in Peter’s place, you Deny Christ and die the minute after the denial???,Read the Scripture Xavier, the passover meal, Jesus tells Peter he will deny him and the cock will crow twice, of course when Peter came to his senses when that actually happened , he fell to the ground in repentance and sorrow, read all about it, then tell me it show we can all be serious sinners even the Pope.Peace , Carlan

Well what is the difference between Philip (in John 14) and Peter? I find Philips lack of faith to be a more sad state of affairs than Peter’s denial. Philip is even ignorant to his lack of faith but at least Peter recognizes his.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, MS

Next time you ‘check your facts’, you’d better use something other then a comic book as a reference.

That explains why your church, your bible and your leaders and probably yourself all refer to people as Saint Paul and Saint Peter and a litany of other canonized saints; yet as you said you can’t know.

If you take the time to re-read the post it dealt with having and then losing salvation. The Catholic Church, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, and as part of the Power Christ gave to Peter in Matt 16, has identified certain individuals whose lives have closely modeled the life of Christ and can serve as a role model for each of us. These individuals have been identified as canonized saints - and, but this is meant that they are in Heaven. There are no ‘canonized damned souls’. We do not know with certainty who is in Hell - all that can be indentified is that certain indivduals have lead a life that has not served as model of Christ. And, while the disgraced Apostle Judas may quickly come to mind - Peter’s sin was not that much different - and his actions of betraying Christ are certainly no role model for us. What is appropriate to emulate was his penance and his actions to bring about the sprading of the Gospel and the Love of Christ throughout the world as th first pope.

All who enter the race are in reference to Christians and the last time I looked only Christians will be in heaven and the last time I checked, no Christian will be in hell.
Hold on there, MS - are you checking with that comic book again…? As I recall, not everyone who says, “Lord! Lord!” will enter heaven … (Matt 7:21) and not everyone that casts out demons in the Lord’s name will be known by God…! So, your idea about no ‘Christian’ being in hell is the product of wishful thinking.

Perhaps you have a different theology that contradicts this position so clearly taught in the passage in question.

25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then {do it} to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Paul give the physical comparison to a spiritual goal, which is the winner will receive a “wreath” or a prize; likewise Christians will be judged according to the race they ran and rewarded according to the manner in which you ran the race. You can commit sins that will remove your rewards; yet you will be in heaven.

In this verse you have quoted, MS, we see Paul encouraging others to do good - lest he be disqualified. Maybe you are not familiar with someone who is disqualified from something - but, they do not get what they sought! They have lost it. The idea of heaven NOT BEING THE ETERNAL REWARD is totally UN-Biblical. The idea that you can be denied your reward, yet be in heaven has no validity. To deny the eternal reward: the Blessed Vision of God - is to condemned to Hell. There is on middle ground here. There are only 4 concerns: death, judgment, heaven or hell. Death and judgment will come to us all. Where we spend all eternity is the outcome of how we have been judged based on how we cooperated with God’s Grace - and did the WORKS of God.

But as I said before we will both disagree till we are blue in the face so I pray God will bless you and I hope you feel the same.

:hug3:

God bless you, too, MS

 

[tqualey]

Hi, XL,

What an interesting question. Let me try an answer from a different persepctive…

Just a side question, but everyone is talking about the poor sap who falls away. Lets take a person at the other extreme of the OSAS line. Are you saying a wise OSAS follower, doing what is expected by Christ is also condemned because they hold the OSAS belief?

If OSAS is viewed as a distraction from the real content or mission of our lives as Christians, then there is no problem (and that is because this heresy is simply ignored!)

Seriously, if you are of the belief that only God can judge a soul (Heb 4:12) and we are really doing well to judge ourselves - how can we possibly judge others (or even ourselves) based on OSAS? It is true that God know all things - so, He obviously knew before all of creation, just who would be saved or who will be damned. It is presumptious to say because we claim Christ we are saved SIMPLY for that reason. We must DO WORKS eek as commanded by Christ… and neatly identified by On Fire… copied and pasted below…

---

As a Catholic I believe what the Bible says in terms of what one must do in order to get into Heaven,some of which are----Have faith (Romans 3:28,John 3:16,1John 4:15) forgive the sins of others(Mathew 6: 14-15) care for ones family(1 Tim 5:8); feed the hungry,clothe the naked,visit the sick and imprisoned(Math 25:31-46); keep the Commandments (Math 19 :17 and 1 John 2:3-4); love my brother (1John 2:10)deny ourselves and pick up our cross daily(Luke 9:23); do the will of the Father(Math 7 :21) eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man (John 6:51-58); give a return for the talents the Master has given us (Math 25 :14-30);be baptized (John 3:3-5, 1Peter 3: 20-21,Mark 16:16)confess our sins (1 John 1:9)…ALL BY THE GRACE OF GOD

The Christian who does these things by cooperating with the Grace of God - willl forever enjoy the Blessed Vision of God. At the General Judgment, we all will find out who was saved and who was damned. Best advice: follow what Chirst said - which means believe and Him and do His WORKS - and then you will not have to hear, “I never knew you!”

God bless

 

[Carlan]

Well what is the difference between Philip (in John 14) and Peter? I find Philips lack of faith to be a more sad state of affairs than Peter’s denial. Philip is even ignorant to his lack of faith but at least Peter recognizes his.

XL,Yes I see in Philip that he is off track and not understanding and Jesus rebukes him for it, that does not tell me, however, that he did not go on to listen and learn from Christ’s lesson and come to the fullness of faith.Peace, Carlan

 

[jmcrae]

Hmm… hold on now. I thing we are heading down a path I never even thought about.

So, the father of the Catholic Church, Peter’s denial of Christ was counts as the Big Denial? If he would have died at that very moment… adios, Peter?

It happened to a great many martyrs - when it came to the point and they were looking straight into the lion’s teeth, they denied Christ, and the Early Church did not see fit to claim their bodies and bury them (unlike the bodies of those who died bravely, singing the praises of Christ right to the very end.)

Those who came back alive from the arena were not permitted to enter into the door of the Church until they had made their Confession to the Bishop, and after they had done some very severe penances assigned to them by the Bishop - because the early Bishops knew that coming back alive meant that they had denied Christ before they even saw the lions coming for them.

Denial of Christ was taken extremely seriously by the Early Church - they really believed that it was a mortal sin, and worse than any other mortal sin.

 

[Carlan]

Which is exactly what any other true Christian would do - be remorseful for the sin they’ve committed. In my opinion, the best way for someone to self-examine himself and determine whether or not he really is saved is his response after he sins. Is he sorrowful and remorseful, or does he just blow it off and not care? A Christian doing the former is saved and always was saved; a ‘Christian’ doing the latter is not saved and never was saved in the first place.

TS, I can’t see that kind of reasoning, If a person has been drawn by God’s actual grace to accept the redemption, the death of Christ for his sins, was Baptized,Justified and given sanctifying grace by the Holy Spirit and began his life of growing in holiness and then for what ever reason began living in deadly sin(example,divorce one wife, begin living in adultery by remarrying) that means he has lost his salvation through living in that deadly sin, the salvation he rec’d in the beginning with Baptism, (Baptism is an indelible mark on the soul that can never be removed,erased!)With all those gifts given to him by the grace of God in the first place, how can you say that the person did not rec’ them in the first place? Only God could possibly know that.:yup Peace, Carlan

 

[Xavierlives]

Hi, XL,

What an interesting question. Let me try an answer from a different persepctive…

If OSAS is viewed as a distraction from the real content or mission of our lives as Christians, then there is no problem (and that is because this heresy is simply ignored!)

Well I think that is why this is truly an interesting discussion because a prodigal son OSASer isn’t likely going to be thinking about God and redemption. A OSASer who is walking the right path is really thinking about family or friends who have fallen away from the church and it is more of a peace of mind argument for them. But the OSASer isn’t in danger. Thene if there is a OSASer who recognizes the need for the saving redemption of Christ, then there is a good chance they are repenting.

So, OSAS is really for peace of mind.
tqualey;6291742:

Seriously, if you are of the belief that only God can judge a soul (Heb 4:12) and we are really doing well to judge ourselves - how can we possibly judge others (or even ourselves) based on OSAS? It is true that God know all things - so, He obviously knew before all of creation, just who would be saved or who will be damned. It is presumptious to say because we claim Christ we are saved SIMPLY for that reason. We must DO WORKS eek as commanded by Christ… and neatly identified by On Fire… copied and pasted below…

Well we see on numerous occasions that Christ seems to be saying we are not the judges of God’s law. There are times where we are supposed to guide, train, educated, but we are not the judges. It really is a great burden to have removed from us. It is almost a gift, especially for people like me (who is a lawyer). I know that society might judge people for breaking the laws of man, but God will also judge people for breaking the laws of God. I also think we will be judged on our work. Most Catholics don’t hold the exact view but it is somewhat similar. Basically, only Christ knows what is prosperous to his Kingdom. So while I might spend 10 hours a week down at my church, gardening, that might not reap anything, but my 10 minutes discussing Christ here, might reap much more. CAF is probably not considered work by anybody, but there is a great opportunity to spread Christ’s message and actually see fruit. Christ will have to judge it all.

---

As a Catholic I believe what the Bible says in terms of what one must do in order to get into Heaven,some of which are----Have faith (Romans 3:28,John 3:16,1John 4:15) forgive the sins of others(Mathew 6: 14-15) care for ones family(1 Tim 5:8); feed the hungry,clothe the naked,visit the sick and imprisoned(Math 25:31-46); keep the Commandments (Math 19 :17 and 1 John 2:3-4); love my brother (1John 2:10)deny ourselves and pick up our cross daily(Luke 9:23); do the will of the Father(Math 7 :21) eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man (John 6:51-58); give a return for the talents the Master has given us (Math 25 :14-30);be baptized (John 3:3-5, 1Peter 3: 20-21,Mark 16:16)confess our sins (1 John 1:9)…ALL BY THE GRACE OF GOD

The Christian who does these things by cooperating with the Grace of God - willl forever enjoy the Blessed Vision of God. At the General Judgment, we all will find out who was saved and who was damned. Best advice: follow what Chirst said - which means believe and Him and do His WORKS - and then you will not have to hear, “I never knew you!”

God bless