A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

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kempo1 said:
this idea of osas in my opinion is a very prideful belief system, i mean to believe that you are so good that you are guaranteed to walk through those pearly gates is to say the least, very cocky. [hope that word doesnt offend] Can any of us actually say that we are as good as Christ and have walked in his path so righteously that we are absolutely in. I know i cant. That being said i know the promises made by Christ and what the cross meant and will always try to improve on my daily journey but will not feel so awsome about myself that i believe i have a shoe already in heaven. My goal is to finish strong and pray that my redeemer accepts me in his kingdom. Thanks God Bless
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The word cocky does not offend me; I have been called a lot worse, having worked in a maximum security prison for the better part of 21 years! I have learned that because I am accepted by God, I can be rejected by man, because my worth lies in God, not in man! And it is not prideful belief which means that you will walk unscathed through this life and waltz into Heaven. I will not be as good as Christ until that day, and then by the grace of God, I will be clothed in righteousness! I am working daily on being more humble, more obedient, and strive to serve Him more fully! Thank you, and may the grace of God cover you!👍
 
this idea of osas in my opinion is a very prideful belief system, i mean to believe that you are so good that you are guaranteed to walk through those pearly gates is to say the least, very cocky. [hope that word doesnt offend] Can any of us actually say that we are as good as Christ and have walked in his path so righteously that we are absolutely in. I know i cant. That being said i know the promises made by Christ and what the cross meant and will always try to improve on my daily journey but will not feel so awsome about myself that i believe i have a shoe already in heaven. My goal is to finish strong and pray that my redeemer accepts me in his kingdom. Thanks God Bless
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I can agree to a point that it may be pridefully out of place. I myself do not believe that one can go join a church say the words and be baptized, and then live the way they want and believe they will be saved. God demands more than that… Read Romans chapter 6.

But, I do beleive as a believer and follower of Christ as being the Son of God , messiah, Redeemer that it is by his blood that I am saved and none other. i cannot work hard enough or long enough to repay my sins. Remember Paul wrote the the breaking of one law broke them all in the as far as God is concerned. remember Eve just ate some fruit. disobedience is disobedience.

This is why, I think Paul Wrote I buffet my body daily… He also wrote the thing I want to do I don’t do and the thing I don’t want to do I do… praise be to Christ who saves me…

Paul never believed he was perfect, that he didn’t struggle and that he could never obey the law good enough to save himself.

Sorry think i started rambling…
 
1beleevr said:
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The word cocky does not offend me; I have been called a lot worse, having worked in a maximum security prison for the better part of 21 years! I have learned that because I am accepted by God, I can be rejected by man, because my worth lies in God, not in man! And it is not prideful belief which means that you will walk unscathed through this life and waltz into Heaven. I will not be as good as Christ until that day, and then by the grace of God, I will be clothed in righteousness! I am working daily on being more humble, more obedient, and strive to serve Him more fully! Thank you, and may the grace of God cover you!👍
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i know we all fall short, i just dont understand how people justify themselves without the final judgement ,if that makes sense.I know i feel unworhty in many ways. Everyday i find fault in myself, things that need correction. I have tried lately to look at myself in a real way, a long hard look and dont like what i see. When i attend church on sundays i find myself in tears from all the years of sin in my life. Even years that i thought i was ok. Well i will leave that for another discussion dont mean to go off topic. God Bless and May The Lord Shine His Face Upon You!!!
 
kempo1 said:
this idea of osas in my opinion is a very prideful belief system, i mean to believe that you are so good that you are guaranteed to walk through those pearly gates is to say the least, very cocky.
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You are using Catholic beliefs to understand OSAS.
A true believer does not ever assume that he is even capable of being “good”. Jesus said that only God is good.
Salvation is given to those who, by the Holy Spirit, recognize (in desperation) that they are completely incapable of doing anything of themselves to be saved. Those who then look to Christ and believingly accept the Gospel of salvation are given the gift of eternal life. The seal of an indwelling Holy Spirit continues to make that Gospel of Christ real and effective to a believer, so that good works through the Spirit follow. Christ had to do it all by taking our deserved place at Calvary and dying for our sin. It is the work of God, not of ourself. We can not cause or add to our salvation. It is the gift of God, so that no man may boast.
 
Truth_Seeker17 said:
If you read 2nd Peter chapter 2, it talks about the false prophets of this world - the people who say they’re ‘Christian,’ but they really aren’t. “For if, after they [the ‘Christians’] have escaped the defilements of the world and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first” (2nd Peter 2:20, NASB). At first glance, one might think this verse is referring to a person who had become a Christian and then subsequently ‘lost’ his salvation.
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At second and third glance, too, quite honestly. Why add to the Scriptures a meaning that is actually opposite to the literal reading of it?
But if you look at the first verse of the chapter, you’ll notice the passage is clearly referring to “false teachers”.
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I think it’s referring to people who have become believers at some point, but then overextended their reach, thinking they were teachers, when they really should have remained students - people who were not really connected into the Apostolic Tradition, and started speculating about what Jesus “must have really meant” instead of looking to the Apostles for guidance in these matters. But once they entered into the arena of speculation, they lost their Christian faith, and took others down with them, as well.
In my opinion, that is exactly what Judas was - a hypocrite. Externally, he exhibited a “Christian” persona, but he had a false faith. The way I see it, such an explanation seems to be a much more reasonable theory than the notion that Judas ‘fell away’ from the faith. The fact is, he never had true faith in the first place.
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I can see how he might have fooled the other disciples, but how could he have fooled Jesus? :confused:

And for what motive? If Judas did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, then what on earth would have motivated him to seek to become a member of Jesus’ inner circle? If Judas had only thought that Jesus was an ordinary rabbi, just like the many others that were wandering the countryside in those days, why would he have joined up, in the first place? It makes no sense. It’s not like there would have been any material advantage to himself, to belong to Jesus’ inner circle - he would have had to give up his job and any other regular source of income, along with his family ties, to go with Jesus. (It’s kind of like imagining someone joining up with the Franciscans, or the Sisters of Blessed Teresa of Calcutta, for the money and power - it just makes me go, “Hunh?”) 🤷
 
jmcrae said:
Only towards the end. Remember, it was Jesus Himself who chose Judas to be one of the Twelve - a high honour. He would not have allowed Judas to be in His inner circle, if Judas had not been a fully qualified sincere believer, in the beginning.

I am not suggesting that Jesus didn’t know in advance what would become of Judas later on; only that Judas, at the time that Jesus chose him, was fully qualified for membership in Jesus’ inner circle, at the time that Jesus chose him - he had sufficient faith to begin with, and then he lost it.
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Jesus knew exactly who and what Judas was from the very begining. Anything short of that means He is not omniscient. Jesus makes a note of Judas being a devil in John 6:70. Which is what? Year two?
 
Xavierlives said:
Jesus knew exactly who and what Judas was from the very begining. Anything short of that means He is not omniscient. Jesus makes a note of Judas being a devil in John 6:70. Which is what? Year two?
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No, it was about a week before the Last Supper. 🙂
 
Xavierlives said:
Isn’t John 6:70 the third listed Passover in John (out of four)?

:looking for Bible: :coffeeread: :bible1:
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No - actually it was the Feast of Tabernacles (7:2) - my bad - so it was actually about six months before the Crucifixion.

Even so, Judas was not among those who left Jesus at that time, even though it would have been the perfect opportunity, if he had already lost his faith. It’s not like there could have been any profit in it for him, by staying. 🤷
 
jmcrae said:
No - actually it was the Feast of Tabernacles (7:2) - my bad - so it was actually about six months before the Crucifixion.

Even so, Judas was not among those who left Jesus at that time, even though it would have been the perfect opportunity, if he had already lost his faith. It’s not like there could have been any profit in it for him, by staying. 🤷
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Well, I think the faith that Judas had was that Christ was the Messiah. The only problem is, he was thinking, Messiah meant Earthly ruler and he wanted to get in on the ground floor. He was looking at it as a way to pad his wallet not his faith. I honestly believe that Judas even thought by turning Christ over would be the catalyst to ushering in the Earthly kingdom. But this is really just guesswork on my part.
 
Xavierlives said:
Well, I think the faith that Judas had was that Christ was the Messiah. The only problem is, he was thinking, Messiah meant Earthly ruler and he wanted to get in on the ground floor. He was looking at it as a way to pad his wallet not his faith. I honestly believe that Judas even thought by turning Christ over would be the catalyst to ushering in the Earthly kingdom. But this is really just guesswork on my part.
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Well, that’s a fairly common theory, and you may have read it somewhere without remembering that you read it. I’m not sure what to make of that theory, because the rest of the Disciples didn’t think it was an earthly kingdom, in the military sense. Maybe Judas was hoping for some kind of earthly power, but I don’t think he thought Jesus was going to be a military commander. What evidence would he have had, to support that idea? 🤷

I think they already knew it was the Church, and I think they thought that Jesus was going to remain on the earth forever to be its leader; the Crucifixion surely threw them for a loop, in that regard (and I have to admit that, in their place, I would have probably just left the Church; I would have just thought that all the promises had been false, and that I had been duped).

It’s possible that Judas was trying to force Jesus to overthrow the High Priest to take over the Sanhedrin and announce Himself as God on earth, but I don’t think he was trying to force a military take-over - and I don’t think it occurred to Judas that the Sanhedrin would turn Jesus over to Pilate and ask for Him to be crucified - I think he may have just been trying to instigate a regime change in the Sanhedrin. If so, then I feel really sorry for Judas - he must have been going out of his mind when he saw Jesus being taken away to Pilate. But instead of repenting of his sin (whatever the motive may have been), he despaired, and committed suicide.
 
jmcrae said:
And for what motive? If Judas did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, then what on earth would have motivated him to seek to become a member of Jesus’ inner circle? If Judas had only thought that Jesus was an ordinary rabbi, just like the many others that were wandering the countryside in those days, why would he have joined up, in the first place? It makes no sense. It’s not like there would have been any material advantage to himself, to belong to Jesus’ inner circle - he would have had to give up his job and any other regular source of income, along with his family ties, to go with Jesus.
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Most Jews thought the Messiah would come only as a ruling King who would put down all of Israel’s enemies. Judas wanted to hitch his wagon to such a King, since there would be great worldly power resulting from being part of the inner circle. Remember how even John’s mother asked that her two sons be seated on either side of Jesus when He would finally become that King.
Jesus did not come at that time to establish a worldly kingdom. Jesus came to die for our sins, which was not what Judas was interested in. Judas was not seeking salvation as a born again person would seek. Judas only wanted worldly power and satisfaction just as almost all unbelievers also seek.
 
brkn1 said:
Most Jews thought the Messiah would come only as a ruling King who would put down all of Israel’s enemies. Judas wanted to hitch his wagon to such a King, since there would be great worldly power resulting from being part of the inner circle.
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If Judas was looking for an earthly King, what would have made him think Jesus was that King? Jesus Himself never gave any evidence of desiring or even being qualified for such a position.
Remember how even John’s mother asked that her two sons be seated on either side of Jesus when He would finally become that King.
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The mother, yes. James and John didn’t think Jesus was going to become an earthly King though - they understood that it was going to be a spiritual organization, and they already knew that they were being trained for leadership in that Kingdom - but there was no weapons training, and no training in political science - so they must have been aware that Jesus’ Kingdom was not going to be the normal kind of Kingdom.
 
jmcrae said:
At second and third glance, too, quite honestly. Why add to the Scriptures a meaning that is actually opposite to the literal reading of it?

I think it’s referring to people who have become believers at some point, but then overextended their reach, thinking they were teachers, when they really should have remained students - people who were not really connected into the Apostolic Tradition, and started speculating about what Jesus “must have really meant” instead of looking to the Apostles for guidance in these matters. But once they entered into the arena of speculation, they lost their Christian faith, and took others down with them, as well.
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Yes, I can definitely see that. I respect your point of view. Let me challenge you for a moment, though: if is indeed the case that 2nd Peter chapter 2 is referring to someone who became a legit Christian but then lose his salvation by becoming corrupted, then what did Paul mean when he said the Holy Spirit has ‘sealed’ us Christians until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30)? Is Paul not suggesting that once someone truly becomes saved, then the Holy Spirit will make sure he does not ‘fall away’?

Also, no one has yet to respond to my interpretation of Romans 8:38-39 – that God isn’t going to let any of His followers out of His hand.

God bless,
TS17
 
Truth_Seeker17 said:
Yes, I can definitely see that. I respect your point of view. Let me challenge you for a moment, though: if is indeed the case that 2nd Peter chapter 2 is referring to someone who became a legit Christian but then lose his salvation by becoming corrupted, then what did Paul mean when he said the Holy Spirit has ‘sealed’ us Christians until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30)?
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He is referring to the Sacrament of Confirmation, when the person is anointed by the Bishop with the oil of Chrism and sealed to Christ, when they make their declaration of faith.
Is Paul not suggesting that once someone truly becomes saved, then the Holy Spirit will make sure he does not ‘fall away’?
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The Holy Spirit marks the soul with an indelible mark, but that mark doesn’t take away the person’s free will - they can go to Hell with that mark on their soul, if they later choose to commit sin - to their shame.
Also, no one has yet to respond to my interpretation of Romans 8:38-39 – that God isn’t going to let any of His followers out of His hand.
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The Holy Spirit will prevent outside forces from pulling you away from Christ, but if you choose to actually jump out of His hands, He will not stop you - in other words, you will always have sufficient grace to follow God’s will, but if you make a free choice not to take advantage of the grace that has been given to you, then God will respect your choice. No one is going to be dragged into Heaven kicking and screaming, even if they have received the Sacrament of Confirmation.
 
kempo1 said:
i know we all fall short, i just dont understand how people justify themselves without the final judgement ,if that makes sense.I know i feel unworhty in many ways. Everyday i find fault in myself, things that need correction. I have tried lately to look at myself in a real way, a long hard look and dont like what i see. When i attend church on sundays i find myself in tears from all the years of sin in my life. Even years that i thought i was ok. Well i will leave that for another discussion dont mean to go off topic. God Bless and May The Lord Shine His Face Upon You!!!
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Unlike many people that I know, I do not live my life, in fear of losing my salvation! Rather, I live in the hope that through God’s ongoing work in me(Phillipians 1:6), that I will be made in the image of Christ someday! I have accepted my imperfection, but I do not take for granted the price that Jesus paid for me! Fear not, is one of the most, if not the most used phrase in the Bible! Jesus does not want us to live in a state of constant fear! I think this could actually be a hindrance, as you would be constantly working hard to not sin, rather than remembering that you have a mediator in Christ! When I think of OSAS, I sometimes wonder,“How come God did not allow me to die in my sinfulness.” I know what Paul says about “working out your salvation with fear and tremblin,” but I’m not sure that it means that if you sin, you lose it. Did the disciples lose their salvation after sinning?
 
1beleevr said:
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Unlike many people that I know, I do not live my life, in fear of losing my salvation! Rather, I live in the hope that through God’s ongoing work in me(Phillipians 1:6), that I will be made in the image of Christ someday! I have accepted my imperfection, but I do not take for granted the price that Jesus paid for me! Fear not, is one of the most, if not the most used phrase in the Bible! Jesus does not want us to live in a state of constant fear! I think this could actually be a hindrance, as you would be constantly working hard to not sin, rather than remembering that you have a mediator in Christ! When I think of OSAS, I sometimes wonder,“How come God did not allow me to die in my sinfulness.” I know what Paul says about “working out your salvation with fear and tremblin,” but I’m not sure that it means that if you sin, you lose it. Did the disciples lose their salvation after sinning?
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Yes - that’s why Christ had to forgive them again, after He rose from the dead. Judas never asked for forgiveness, and look at what happened to him.
 
1beleevr said:
]

Unlike many people that I know, I do not live my life, in fear of losing my salvation! Rather, I live in the hope that through God’s ongoing work in me(Phillipians 1:6), that I will be made in the image of Christ someday! I have accepted my imperfection, but I do not take for granted the price that Jesus paid for me! Fear not, is one of the most, if not the most used phrase in the Bible! Jesus does not want us to live in a state of constant fear! I think this could actually be a hindrance, as you would be constantly working hard to not sin, rather than remembering that you have a mediator in Christ! When I think of OSAS, I sometimes wonder,“How come God did not allow me to die in my sinfulness.” I know what Paul says about “working out your salvation with fear and tremblin,” but I’m not sure that it means that if you sin, you lose it. Did the disciples lose their salvation after sinning?
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As for me i will not compare myself to the walk the disciples had. The mountains they had to climb and fear of loosing their lives on a daily basis is no comparison to the world you and i walk in today. Can you imagine trying to spread the gospel under the conditions they were under. Just trying to be a christian would have been a huge task. we have it so much easier and still cant get it right. But like i said before considering also what i just said how can a christian know for sure he or she is guaranteed heaven this is where we Catholics would tell you we would maybe need a trip to purgatory for the cleansing of our sins. Be Back Later!!! Sorry
 
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