A Catholic Church or Not?

[InnocentIII]

What ever happened to Catholic piety?? Why are we so afraid to be Catholic?

When I was young there was a Catholic way of doing things.

We knelt to pray
We joined our hands to pray
We knelt to receive the Blessed Sacrament
We had crucifixes
We fasted
We adored the Blessed Sacrament
We prayed before statues of our saints
We lit votive candles

All these things and many more) made us Catholic. True we had grown out of Judeaism, but St Paul had gained for us the right to be Christians not Jews who followed Christ. Accordingly we developed our way of doing things. And the Lord blessed us with growth and unity.

Now when we go to mass

We stand to pray (Jewish)
We hold out our hands to pray (Jewish)
We stand to receive the Sacrament (half way to Protestants who sit)
We have bare crosses (Protestant)
We don’t fast (Protestant)
We ignore the Sacrament(Protestant)
We have decorative statues or none at all (Protestant)
We don’t have votives (Protestant)

And we wonder why we are losing numbers.

When the Dutch took over the island of Ceylon from the Portugese they tried to convert the people to their brand of Christianity but the people stubbornly clung to their Buddhism. When one Minister asked some why they had worshipped in the Catholic Church but now had returned to Buddhism the answer he received was that there was no splendour of God in Dutch worship.

We still haven’t learnt the lesson.

Has anyone also noticed that “returning to the primitive church” was a catchcry of the last Reformation?

The Devil is persistant but lacks originallity

 

[netmilsmom]

InnocentIII:

What ever happened to Catholic piety?? Why are we so afraid to be Catholic?

When I was young there was a Catholic way of doing things.

We knelt to pray
We joined our hands to pray
We knelt to receive the Blessed Sacrament
We had crucifixes
We fasted
We adored the Blessed Sacrament
We prayed before statues of our saints
We lit votive candles

All these things and many more) made us Catholic. True we had grown out of Judeaism, but St Paul had gained for us the right to be Christians not Jews who followed Christ. Accordingly we developed our way of doing things. And the Lord blessed us with growth and unity.

Now when we go to mass

We stand to pray (Jewish)
We hold out our hands to pray (Jewish)
We stand to receive the Sacrament (half way to Protestants who sit)
We have bare crosses (Protestant)
We don’t fast (Protestant)
We ignore the Sacrament(Protestant)
We have decorative statues or none at all (Protestant)
We don’t have votives (Protestant)

And we wonder why we are losing numbers.

When the Dutch took over the island of Ceylon from the Portugese they tried to convert the people to their brand of Christianity but the people stubbornly clung to their Buddhism. When one Minister asked some why they had worshipped in the Catholic Church but now had returned to Buddhism the answer he received was that there was no splendour of God in Dutch worship.

We still haven’t learnt the lesson.

Has anyone also noticed that “returning to the primitive church” was a catchcry of the last Reformation?

The Devil is persistant but lacks originallity

My Goodness! You are so wise!!!
When speaking of the innovative gestures now used in our masses, I am constantly told, that’s what the early Christians did.
All I can think is, “But for thousands of years we would (for instance) fold our hands for the Our Father.”
I do not understand why there is a problem with being Catholic/Christian. It is what I am. Being anything else/Christian is not me.

 

[fix]

InnocentIII:

Has anyone also noticed that “returning to the primitive church” was a catchcry of the last Reformation?

Yep, the liturical archeologists really kill me. They claim to know how everything was practiced in the early times and that everything that has developed all these centuries was not inspired by the HS. I want to know why they only want to “go back” to certain elements of the early Church and not others? Can we go back to harsher penances for instance? That is never brought up.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Innocent III:

When I was young there was a Catholic way of doing things.

We knelt to pray
We joined our hands to pray
We knelt to receive the Blessed Sacrament
We had crucifixes
We fasted
We adored the Blessed Sacrament
We prayed before statues of our saints
We lit votive candles

All these things and many more) made us Catholic.

Actually, these were practices of Latin or Roman Catholics. In the East we stand on Sunday because the First Council of Niceae forbids kneeling on Sunday. We stand to receive the Blessed Sacrament, we have icons instead of statues. We generally hold our hands in the “orans” position to pray, especially for the Lord’s prayer. There is no adoration of the Blessed Sacrament because we reserve the Blessed Sacrament for the sick and never developed that tradition.

All of the things you mention are “innovations” that developed over the course of the centuries in the Roman Catholic Church. Not doing them does not make one “not Catholic” for we Eastern Catholics are just as Catholic as Roman Catholics.

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon2006]

Well said Deacon Ed.

God Bless

 

[netmilsmom]

Deacon Ed:

Actually, these were practices of Latin or Roman Catholics. In the East we stand on Sunday because the First Council of Niceae forbids kneeling on Sunday. We stand to receive the Blessed Sacrament, we have icons instead of statues. We generally hold our hands in the “orans” position to pray, especially for the Lord’s prayer. There is no adoration of the Blessed Sacrament because we reserve the Blessed Sacrament for the sick and never developed that tradition.

All of the things you mention are “innovations” that developed over the course of the centuries in the Roman Catholic Church. Not doing them does not make one “not Catholic” for we Eastern Catholics are just as Catholic as Roman Catholics.

Deacon Ed

I think he was speaking about the Roman Catholic church and the innovations put in there.
But the more I read about the Eastern Rites are where I will end up if I must move away from my parish.

 

[Brendan]

Deacon2006:

Well said Deacon Ed.

God Bless

A big ‘second’ on that too Deacon Ed.

The Catholic Church has always had ‘stand to pray’ liturgies. The Maronite Catholic church, like the rest of the East, stands through out their Divine Liturgy. And they never departed from Communion with Rome. They have always been Catholic.

And what about Saint Kevin\Caoimhín, the great Irish saint.

He prayed for so long in the orans position that a bird build a nest in his hand. Are you saying that St. Kevin was Jewish influenced?

And I rue the day when the Church departs from some of the Jewish customs She rightly retains.

Tabernacle - Jewish
Priest in a Chasuble - Jewish
3 year cycle of liturgical Readings - Jewish

 

[puzzleannie]

InnocentIII:

When I was young there was a Catholic way of doing things.

We knelt to pray
We joined our hands to pray
We knelt to receive the Blessed Sacrament
We had crucifixes
We fasted
We adored the Blessed Sacrament
We prayed before statues of our saints
We lit votive candles

All these things and many more) made us Catholic.

well, we do all these things in my parish, and in most parishes down here, but that is not what makes us Catholic. What makes us Catholic is our initiation into the faith through Baptism and Confirmation and participation in the Eucharist. God’s freely given grace to us through the sacraments is what builds up the Church of which we are members. These other things are practices and disciplines, which can change. There is more than one way to adore Jesus Christ present in the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[Steve_Green]

The modernist infection in the American church is a shame, I hope Pope Benedict does something to really cause a de jure schism so we can get things over with to recover from the liberal hijacking of VII.

God bless the Eastern Rite churches for sticking with us and being a bastion of sanity through this temporary disaster.

 

[netmilsmom]

Perhaps Roman Catholic would have been a better choice so there was not confusion, however I think that the point is being missed here. The original poster is stating that the Roman Catholic liturgy is being taken over by innovations is some areas.
If one wants to have a liturgy with the above elements, it is frowned upon by liturgical committees and some priests. That’s sad.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Perhaps Roman Catholic would have been a better choice so there was not confusion, however I think that the point is being missed here. The original poster is stating that the Roman Catholic liturgy is being taken over by innovations is some areas.
If one wants to have a liturgy with the above elements, it is frowned upon by liturgical committees and some priests. That’s sad.

I didn’t miss the point. However, what I was pointing out is that all the things mentioned in the original post are, themselves, innovations that have taken place over time. We can’t just say this or that is not acceptable because it’s an “innovation.”

Deacon Ed

 

[InnocentIII]

Deacon Ed:

Actually, these were practices of Latin or Roman Catholics. In the East we stand on Sunday because the First Council of Niceae forbids kneeling on Sunday. We stand to receive the Blessed Sacrament, we have icons instead of statues. We generally hold our hands in the “orans” position to pray, especially for the Lord’s prayer. There is no adoration of the Blessed Sacrament because we reserve the Blessed Sacrament for the sick and never developed that tradition.

This only makes my point. Eastern Rite Catholics were permitted to keep their rites because that was how they had developed their liturgies and practices. They were not required to Romanise to become part of the Catholic Church. I might add that I have not seen anyone using the “orans” in the Orthodox or Eastern Rite Churches here but my experience is limited. Icons however were not part of the Primitive Church and the Iconclastic Controversy nearly destroyed Orthodoxy at one stage. And Iconoclasm was presented by the Emperors and their supporters as being a return to “true Christianity”.

All of the things you mention are “innovations” that developed over the course of the centuries in the Roman Catholic Church. Not doing them does not make one “not Catholic” for we Eastern Catholics are just as Catholic as Roman Catholics.

Innovations is a loaded word. I would call much of what we do now as innovations. I think our practices developed organically through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Are we saying the Church has been ignoring the Holy Spirit during the last 2000 years by developing these practices?

Deacon Ed

 

[InnocentIII]

Deacon Ed:

I didn’t miss the point. However, what I was pointing out is that all the things mentioned in the original post are, themselves, innovations that have taken place over time. We can’t just say this or that is not acceptable because it’s an “innovation.”

Deacon Ed

First let me apologise for not specifying Latin Rite (Here in Ozland Catholic = Latin Rite).

Secondly, there are just as many “innovations” including icons in particular in Eastern Rite churches. Also, here at least, the Eastern Rite Churches (Maronite, Melkite and Ukrainian) have had to conform to Vatican II also, although perhaps less drastically than us because their priests have been less “progressive”.

My main point was that we (Latin Rite Catholics) were suddenly faced with fiats from above depriving us of Catholic devotional and liturgical practices that had been part of the Church for centuries. It is no defence to say such and such was introduced by Pope this or that. Our Lord did not specify how we were to worship, but left it to the Church to determine these things by the Holy Spirit. My complaint about the current “innovations” is that they are all aimed at denying what was distinctly Roman about us - they are the liturgical equivalent of those parish churches that are hidden among residential houses trying to look like “there is no-one here but us chickens”.

BTW - The Chasuble (at least as it applies to the Roman Rite) was developed from the everyday garb of the late Roman Empire not Jewish priestly dress. And the Tabernacle was (as Deacon Ed states) an “innovation” to hold the Blessed Sacrament albeit we chose an OT name for it.

It seems we are once again go “Back to the Future” not “Forward from the Past” - strange how these memes keep reappearing??