A
atheistgirl
Guest
These concerns are answered by the Franciscan organizers in this blogpost:
acertainhope.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/making-of-eucharistic-flash-mob.html
Sarah x
- Status
acertainhope.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/making-of-eucharistic-flash-mob.html
Sarah x
S
superamazingman
Guest
Last time I checked, Franciscans don’t generally put monstrances with the creator of the universe into their gym bags.
S
superamazingman
Guest
Unfortunately, many of the points outlined really just slam the liturgy as meaningless, instead of using the beauty of the liturgy itself to help our Lord reach out to people.These concerns are answered by the Franciscan organizers in this blogpost:
acertainhope.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/making-of-eucharistic-flash-mob.html
Sarah x
He says that it would not be best suited for a “flash mob”, since they couldn’t spontaneously appear, but that is really no reason not to do it… honestly, the procession could have came, then the adorers could spontaneously appear. It wouldn’t be hard at all.
This is more what the church is looking for: evangelization through beauty, first of all, beauty in the liturgy. Eschewing the ritual and beauty of the liturgy goes right in the face of all that.
isthmuscatholic.org/resources/media/431/
A
atheistgirl
Guest
I don’t think the Liturgy was ‘‘slammed’’. I think the Brother just tried to explain his motivations for the approach they took. He even recognized he should have asked the Bishop’s permission, and would do so if they ever did this again, and would comply* with all of the Bishops requirements. *
I can only tell you, from my point of view: If I saw a guy in a load of fancy clothing, surrounded with guys carrying candles, holding up something, I’d walk on by. It really wouldn’t attract my attention.
If I had seen that simple, poor man, holding up something (that I now know is Christ in the Eucharist as Catholics believe) I’d investigate.
The simplicity of the whole thing attracted me. The man and his demeanor attracted me. I’d have been interested enough to talk to him and find out what the heck was going on.
But a ton of pomp and ceremony … I’d just keep walking.
Just me though. Pomp and ceremony doesn’t attract me. Powerful simplicity very much does.
Sarah x
W
Wildgraywolf
Guest
Wow… I just finished watching the video… I was surprised how much it moved me…
T
triumphguy
Guest
Franciscans don’t have gym bags.
J
JReducation
Guest
Let’s take some steps back here.
- No layman in the Catholic Church has the right or authority to recriminte an exempt religious. Even a bishop does not have this kind of authority. One can disagree, but one cannot say, “They’re wrong or they should have done this or that.”" They are exempt religious. This means that they can do whatever their superior authorizes.
- The information was very clear. The went to the lay brother who is the highest ranking friar in the house and he authorized it. As the highest ranking friar, he is the superior and he has the same authority as a bishop.
- There is nothing wrong with a Eucharistic procession. That is not what the friar is saying. However, there is nothing wrong with their system either. This is a custom that was very common in the past, before the age of Eucharistic processions. You must remember that the Franciscans are older than Eucharistic processions. At the time of Francis there were no such things as a monstrance. The Eucharist was carried in a sack that the brothers took everywhere. Today, that would be a backpack. You would wrap up the Eucharist, place it in a smaller sack and then place the smaller sack into the larger one.
- The friar holding the monstrance is not a priest. Therefore, he does not wear a surplus or a stole. He is the superior of the house. The the friar priest is somewhere in the vicinity. But he cannot do this function, because it would place him above the superior. That’s not allowed by Ordinary Law. Francis and his canonically elected successors always take presedent unless they choose not to do so.
- There was no need for candles, because there is no altar or other flat surface. The candles are used when you are going to place the monstrance on a surface. Another occasion for the use of candles would be a procession, provided the wind cooperates. This was neither a procession nor a Holy Hour. A Holy Hour would take place in a church or chapel. A procession has its own format, which varies from one country to another and from one religious order to another. The basic components are candles, monstrance, canopy, hymns, adorers, point of departure and point of destination.
- Finally, the event was well coordinated with lay people, local pastor while at the same time it protected the simplicity and austerity which is the law for the Capuchin Franciscan Friars. Remember, this is not a liturgy. Even in liturgy, they have a mandate to keep it as simple and as austere as possible.
To be exempt means that certain things in the law do not apply to you, because
a. you are grandfathered in
b. you have earned a special honor
c. your vows are solemn not simple
d. your rank is higher than others
e. you’re under the protection of the pope
f. you have a tradition that is so old that the Church sees it as part of its patrimony and decides to leave it in place.
The bottom line is that members of certain orders are exempt. We have to be very careful how we speak about them and what we say about them. Any pastor who knows the Council of Trent and who knows the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life can embarrass us by slapping us with the law over our head. Agreements and disagreements are always there. Corrections are only allowed to those who have the right to suggest a correction. In the case of the Capuchins only two people can correct them. a) their superior and b) the pope.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
S
superamazingman
Guest
Why in the world is he wearing a stole?
M
mlz
Guest
So real and beautiful! God give us the grace to proclaim You before men!!!
mlz
mlz
J
JReducation
Guest
My apologies. The brother holding the Blessed Sacrament is a priest. The brother leading the laudas is the superior. He’s the one who is not a priest. But he’s the one who authorized the event and the local pastor agreed.
Someone asked about the surplus. That’s not something that we Franciscans would wear outside of a liturgical function. A surplus is a liturgical garment. This is not a liturgical celebration. The same goes for the cope. Both are worn only in liturgical celebrations.
Everyone has to remember that you’re dealing with the Franciscans. I have always found it fascinating that the Franciscan family is the largest religious family in the Latin Church and probably one of the most well known by Catholics and non-Catholics; however, Catholics know nothing about us. Most Catholics assume that we’re another order of priests and that we follow the same rules as every other priest.
Nothing can be further from the truth. We’re an order of penitents. Many of our brothers are priests, but they never cease to be brothers.
We deliberately “hide” (observe quotation marks) our priests. The mission of the order is to live as one brotherhood of equals in absolute obedience and poverty. We defined the term collegiality. There is only one person who is above all, that is Francis and his successor. For this reason, everyone in a house wears the same habit and in many houses everyone goes by the title Brother or Friar. People want us to stand out and we’re trying to disappear, because Francis wanted us to be as anonymous as possible.
We don’t subscribe to too many rubrics, because we’re not bound by them. It’s really up to the local chapter to make those decisions. In that sense, we’re very influenced by the Benedictines. In the Benedictine tradition, it is the abbot who puts together the liturgy and writes the rules. When Francis founded the order, he was trained by Benedictines. People should not get upset or shocked when we do something different. We’ve always done things differently. After 800 years, you would think that Catholics wouldn’t even bat an eyelash.
Franciscans are deliberately spontaneous. It’s part of our way of life. We do not spend a great deal of time thinking about things. Every house has at least one person who is a well of ideas. He throws them out there. The superior approves and we run with it. Our trust is in Providence and the Blessed Mother that they will make things work. We’re just the middlemen. As a result, we’re not very formal in our way of doing things, including prayer. We’re very reverent, but very informal. That too is well known by anyone who knows something about Franciscans. We’re so informal that we had to break down the order into branches that we call obediences. Every branch follows the Rule of St. Francis.
However, there are things that have come up over the centuries that Francis did not foresee. They are not in the rule. The brothers had to write statutes to address those situations. The Dominicans would have a chapter to discern what to do and together would come up with a statute. You can see a lot of structure there. The Jesuits have permission from Ignatius for each one to do as he thinks best. They don’t have to do the same thing. You can have five in one house responding in five different ways to a situation. Franciscans, on the other hand, will have a house meeting called a house chapter. We will decide what to do and run with it. Up the street the other Franciscan house decided to go in the opposite direction.
To avoid conflict, the easiest thing to do is to create separate governments, with separate councils, superiors and separate constitutions, but the same rule of life. Each of those groups is called an obedience, meaning that we obey a particular set of statutes that may be different from those of the Franciscans two miles away. This is not a problem for us as long as the original rule written by Francis is observed by all. Francis delighted in the diversity among his brothers.
When I see events like this all I can say is, “What did you expect from Franciscans?”
We are creative. We are very well educated in theology and philosophy. We have the greatest number of doctors in the Church. We also have the largest number of theologians in the Church. We are called to be very spontaneous in our responses to God and to the needs of his people. We do not break the law, because our men as educated enough to know how far we can go within the law. We’re not an order of priests, so don’t expect us to act or look like one. Although we have many priests and bishops, even a few popes.
Despite the 10 years that it takes from entrance to final vows and all those years of studying, we are rather simple guys. We’re the kind of guy whom you would meet at a corner drinking coffee, smoking a big cigar and preaching from the bible. We’re the guys who sent two young brothers from Boston to Costa Rica on foot, because they needed two brothers, but there was not enough money for a plane ticket. They hitchhiked all the way down, slept in barns, bus stations, sidewalks, under bridges and an occasional rectory.
Finally, our Christology is very beautiful. We are brothers, because we stand in Christ’s place, who is the firstborn among many brothers. Everything we do, we do for the love of the Father under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as Christ our brother did.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
T
triumphguy
Guest
Bt JR: This is exactly what I meant when I said Franciscans don’t have gym bags - except you said it so much betterLet’s take some steps back here.
One must take in the entire picture. These are Capuchin Franciscan Friars bringing Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, to the people, according to the custom of the 13th century, which they try to preserve as closely as is humanly possible. In the 13th century, the Blessed Sacrament would have been in a case, similar to a small jewelry box. The case would be opened for all to see the consecrated host. The monstrance is much younger than the Franciscans. All the rites and rituals that go along with it are much younger. Therefore, they do not apply to exempt religious. That’s why they’re exempt.
- No layman in the Catholic Church has the right or authority to recriminte an exempt religious. Even a bishop does not have this kind of authority. One can disagree, but one cannot say, “They’re wrong or they should have done this or that.”" They are exempt religious. This means that they can do whatever their superior authorizes.
- The information was very clear. The went to the lay brother who is the highest ranking friar in the house and he authorized it. As the highest ranking friar, he is the superior and he has the same authority as a bishop.
- There is nothing wrong with a Eucharistic procession. That is not what the friar is saying. However, there is nothing wrong with their system either. This is a custom that was very common in the past, before the age of Eucharistic processions. You must remember that the Franciscans are older than Eucharistic processions. At the time of Francis there were no such things as a monstrance. The Eucharist was carried in a sack that the brothers took everywhere. Today, that would be a backpack. You would wrap up the Eucharist, place it in a smaller sack and then place the smaller sack into the larger one.
- The friar holding the monstrance is not a priest. Therefore, he does not wear a surplus or a stole. He is the superior of the house. The the friar priest is somewhere in the vicinity. But he cannot do this function, because it would place him above the superior. That’s not allowed by Ordinary Law. Francis and his canonically elected successors always take presedent unless they choose not to do so.
- There was no need for candles, because there is no altar or other flat surface. The candles are used when you are going to place the monstrance on a surface. Another occasion for the use of candles would be a procession, provided the wind cooperates. This was neither a procession nor a Holy Hour. A Holy Hour would take place in a church or chapel. A procession has its own format, which varies from one country to another and from one religious order to another. The basic components are candles, monstrance, canopy, hymns, adorers, point of departure and point of destination.
- Finally, the event was well coordinated with lay people, local pastor while at the same time it protected the simplicity and austerity which is the law for the Capuchin Franciscan Friars. Remember, this is not a liturgy. Even in liturgy, they have a mandate to keep it as simple and as austere as possible.
To be exempt means that certain things in the law do not apply to you, because
a. you are grandfathered in
b. you have earned a special honor
c. your vows are solemn not simple
d. your rank is higher than others
e. you’re under the protection of the pope
f. you have a tradition that is so old that the Church sees it as part of its patrimony and decides to leave it in place.
The bottom line is that members of certain orders are exempt. We have to be very careful how we speak about them and what we say about them. Any pastor who knows the Council of Trent and who knows the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life can embarrass us by slapping us with the law over our head. Agreements and disagreements are always there. Corrections are only allowed to those who have the right to suggest a correction. In the case of the Capuchins only two people can correct them. a) their superior and b) the pope.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
J
JReducation
Guest
If we had gym bags, we’d have to go to the gym to justify having the bag. The we’d have to stay in shape. The happiest Franciscans are the fat ones.Bt JR: This is exactly what I meant when I said Franciscans don’t have gym bags - except you said it so much better
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
C
Christine85
Guest
I liked the simplicity of it bringing Christ to an ordinary situation
E
Exorcist
Guest
It was beautiful. It was far more elegant and touching than what you describe! I sincerely wonder about ridiculously technical comments like yours. They are just the sort of thing that keeps the Church/priests/laity from doing anything at all!
E
Exorcist
Guest
You are when it comes to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass or other Catholic sacrificial liturgy.My apologies. The brother holding the Blessed Sacrament is a priest. The brother leading the laudas is the superior. He’s the one who is not a priest. But he’s the one who authorized the event and the local pastor agreed.
Someone asked about the surplus. That’s not something that we Franciscans would wear outside of a liturgical function. A surplus is a liturgical garment. This is not a liturgical celebration. The same goes for the cope. Both are worn only in liturgical celebrations.
Everyone has to remember that you’re dealing with the Franciscans. I have always found it fascinating that the Franciscan family is the largest religious family in the Latin Church and probably one of the most well known by Catholics and non-Catholics; however, Catholics know nothing about us. Most Catholics assume that we’re another order of priests and that we follow the same rules as every other priest.
Nothing can be further from the truth. We’re an order of penitents. Many of our brothers are priests, but they never cease to be brothers.
We deliberately “hide” (observe quotation marks) our priests. The mission of the order is to live as one brotherhood of equals in absolute obedience and poverty. We defined the term collegiality. There is only one person who is above all, that is Francis and his successor. For this reason, everyone in a house wears the same habit and in many houses everyone goes by the title Brother or Friar. People want us to stand out and we’re trying to disappear, because Francis wanted us to be as anonymous as possible.
We don’t subscribe to too many rubrics, because we’re not bound by them. It’s really up to the local chapter to make those decisions. In that sense, we’re very influenced by the Benedictines. In the Benedictine tradition, it is the abbot who puts together the liturgy and writes the rules. When Francis founded the order, he was trained by Benedictines. People should not get upset or shocked when we do something different. We’ve always done things differently. After 800 years, you would think that Catholics wouldn’t even bat an eyelash.
Franciscans are deliberately spontaneous. It’s part of our way of life. We do not spend a great deal of time thinking about things. Every house has at least one person who is a well of ideas. He throws them out there. The superior approves and we run with it. Our trust is in Providence and the Blessed Mother that they will make things work. We’re just the middlemen. As a result, we’re not very formal in our way of doing things, including prayer. We’re very reverent, but very informal. That too is well known by anyone who knows something about Franciscans. We’re so informal that we had to break down the order into branches that we call obediences. Every branch follows the Rule of St. Francis.
However, there are things that have come up over the centuries that Francis did not foresee. They are not in the rule. The brothers had to write statutes to address those situations. The Dominicans would have a chapter to discern what to do and together would come up with a statute. You can see a lot of structure there. The Jesuits have permission from Ignatius for each one to do as he thinks best. They don’t have to do the same thing. You can have five in one house responding in five different ways to a situation. Franciscans, on the other hand, will have a house meeting called a house chapter. We will decide what to do and run with it. Up the street the other Franciscan house decided to go in the opposite direction.
To avoid conflict, the easiest thing to do is to create separate governments, with separate councils, superiors and separate constitutions, but the same rule of life. Each of those groups is called an obedience, meaning that we obey a particular set of statutes that may be different from those of the Franciscans two miles away. This is not a problem for us as long as the original rule written by Francis is observed by all. Francis delighted in the diversity among his brothers.
When I see events like this all I can say is, “What did you expect from Franciscans?”
We are creative. We are very well educated in theology and philosophy. We have the greatest number of doctors in the Church. We also have the largest number of theologians in the Church. We are called to be very spontaneous in our responses to God and to the needs of his people. We do not break the law, because our men as educated enough to know how far we can go within the law. We’re not an order of priests, so don’t expect us to act or look like one. Although we have many priests and bishops, even a few popes.
Despite the 10 years that it takes from entrance to final vows and all those years of studying, we are rather simple guys. We’re the kind of guy whom you would meet at a corner drinking coffee, smoking a big cigar and preaching from the bible. We’re the guys who sent two young brothers from Boston to Costa Rica on foot, because they needed two brothers, but there was not enough money for a plane ticket. They hitchhiked all the way down, slept in barns, bus stations, sidewalks, under bridges and an occasional rectory.
Finally, our Christology is very beautiful. We are brothers, because we stand in Christ’s place, who is the firstborn among many brothers. Everything we do, we do for the love of the Father under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as Christ our brother did.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
C
centurionguard
Guest
I had started a thread on this Eucharistic Flash Mob topic over a year ago.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=574584&highlight=Eucharistic+Flash+Mob
You seem to drive your complaint on the carrying of the Monstrance with Jesus inside the duffle bag as if its some desecration, while missing Jesus Himself being brought before the crowds. Divinity Is Always Where One Least Expects To Find It
In the thread I had brought up other CAF members were dismayed thinking there was something wrong in how Jesus was handled in the duffle bag. I thought the priest handled the Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament with the greatest of Reverence and Respect.
Perhaps it was the Flash Mob itself you disliked.
("Given the portrayal of many secularized Flash Mobs seen on the Internet and Media I understand your point.
But really if one takes away the electronic techno wave of glorified media and if you bring yourself back 2000 plus years ago to the time of Jesus preaching in the crowds, you could call those crowds Flash Mobs in today’s idiom.
Given the gravity of what was depicted in this public Eucharistic Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament perhaps only a handful of 20-30 people took time to recognize Jesus in the crowds.
Had Jesus made an actual physical appearance in any crowd around the world today;
virtually nobody would recognize Him any more than when He came the first time.")
Peace
Chris
M
Megan7
Guest
M
Megan7
Guest
A Eucharistic flash mob in the center of Preston, organized by the Capuchin Franciscans on Ascension Thursday 2011.
youtu.be/cZ5aYoSr3Hg
:thumbsup:Thank you
J
JReducation
Guest
We have always had our own missal with its own rubrics. We do not use the Roman Missal all the time. That’s an option. We can use the Franciscan Missal.
In addition, there is the issue of age. When a religious community or even a diocese has a custom that goes far back, the Church has the power to allow it to continue, when no one else is allowed to do use that custom.
Street preaching, with the Blessed Sacrament is as old as the Mendicants. What you’re asking for is much newer It’s an option that the friars have, not one that they must use.
In addition, you must be conscious that you’re asking a friar to dress up in liturgical garb at a function where it’s not necessary. When you do that, you’re asking him to set himself apart as a priest. The problem with that is that we don’t do this unless it’s absolutely unavoidable, especially if your superior is not a priest and he’s at the same function. You always defer to the superior. He decides what is going to happen.
The way they executed this was very respectful to the Blessed Sacrament. It was also very safe, because they had lay people whom they had prepped for this. They brought the message out to the common man, which is what a Capuchin is supposed to do. Finally, they preserved their charism as a brotherhood. The rule among Franciscans, Cistercians and several other religious communities that were founded as brotherhoods is that priests serve the needs of the fraternity. Their place in the community is very different from a priest in a Dominican community. If a Franciscan who is also a priest can do something more simply, that’s the better way to go. There are times when it is appropriate and even necessary to pull out all the bells and whistles. This was not one of them.
Were I the superior of that house, I would have approved. All they need is the permission of the local pastor, because they’re crossing into his boundaries and the permission of their superior who is well informed on the rubrics of the order. They had all of the bases covered. What you’re expressing is disagreement with how it was done. You can certainly express that. Disagreements will always exist. What we cannot do is to say that they did something wrong, because that would imply that we have the right to correct them, which no one has. But it is OK to say that one does not like the idea.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
M
Melchior_1
Guest
Sarah just distilled exactly why people are drawn to mendicant spirituality. An atheist understands these concepts better than several Catholics I’ve met, go figure!I can only tell you, from my point of view: If I saw a guy in a load of fancy clothing, surrounded with guys carrying candles, holding up something, I’d walk on by. It really wouldn’t attract my attention.
If I had seen that simple, poor man, holding up something (that I now know is Christ in the Eucharist as Catholics believe) I’d investigate.
The simplicity of the whole thing attracted me. The man and his demeanor attracted me. I’d have been interested enough to talk to him and find out what the heck was going on.
But a ton of pomp and ceremony … I’d just keep walking.
Just me though. Pomp and ceremony doesn’t attract me.** Powerful simplicity very much does.**
Sarah x
- Status