A Catholic in a Protestant church

[GraceDK]

Hi Grace.

I’ve enjoyed reading your posts. It’s intersting the amount of opinions on this matter, though not suprising. We are one big family after all, and there are a lot of differences in families.

I was exposed to the Charismatic side of prayer several years ago. It was daunting to say the least. It’s interesting, though. Until I stopped caring what people thought of me as I lifted my hands in prayer and surrendered that much of myself to God, I didn’t grow spiritually. God defintely stretched me and used the charismatic movement to help me in my faith journey.

Ultimately, I now have a more intense experience of quiet worship and the Mass. That’s why I feel such sadness when people on this forum thinks it’s an either/or, not a both/and.

Like you, I haven’t experienced any self-centered prayer that others complain of, though I’m sure it’s out there. My exposure has been through Catholic prayer groups. For the most part, if a Catholic is participating they had to journey to get there. There is a sincerity about having found something valuable and cherishing it. There also seems to be the same sentiment of that deeper relationship with Christ enhancing the experience of Mass, not replacing it.

Anyway, just thought I’d respond.

Whitacre_Girl, I pray you find some good fellowship. I cherish the friends I have who share my joy for Catholicism and Christ. For many years, I thought I had to go it alone on my faith walk–just me and Jesus. I was afraid to share my weakness and struggles. Now, I don’t hesitate to ask others to pray with and for me. God knows I need it!

Peace in Christ,
Teri

Hey Teri.
Great reading your post.
The single mortal who had most to do with me becoming Catholic in the beginning was a Charismatic nun. How did she attract me first? Through her gift of prophesy… This is by the way one of the ways Jesus attracted His followers too, and I love to be at places where this gift is openly in use. Paul encourages this gift in the assemblies, and for anyone who has received words of prophesy that inspired to a deeper relationship with God or a word which came true in the future, it’s amazing.

My experience is that the Catholics who also welcome the charismatic spiriltuality are often the most wholesome Christians. They tend to be on-fire with their faith, evangelise their fellow men and love the teachings of the Church and the sacraments very much.
I think especially of my three absolutely favourite priests, and a lay preacher, also Catholic, who attracts even evangelicals to his meetings from far and near because he is filled with the Spirit so clearly.

What it all comes down to I guess, is whether we experience that the Holy Spirit is working in charismatic individuals and comminuties or not… my answer to that is yes, from experience - I have seen so many people get physically and spiritually healed, they are often more happy in their faith, and then I think its interesting that the Pentecostal church is the fastest growing church in the world… its been in existence for a mere one hundred years. I believe the reason for its success is the Holy Spirit.
I will not keep it a secret. Often I feel I am a closer sister to a charismatic brother or sister in another church than I feel to some of my catholic brothers.

This does not mean I don’t like silent prayer, long walks with Jesus out in the silent nature, speaking with Him at night, reading the Bible, the ordered and predictable liturgy of the Mass… But
I love to be at places where the Holy Spirit has freedom too to do new things… I love to sing too… to celebrate God… to just be happy with Him. I guess thats also what they do in heaven… singing real cool songs to God celebrating the giant wedding

Peace

 

[Prodigal_Son]

2 Samuel gives us this account, and the “danced naked” or “almost naked” is one of those urban myths. The Scripture says he dressed in a linin apron, this was the garb of a Priest. His wife felt that it was unseemly for a king to don the simple robes of a priest.

This event also did not take place during a Mass or the equilivent ancient Jewish service, it was in a parade.

I think it is funny when this passage gets twisted into “it is okay to hoot and holler and dance in Mass”

"13 As soon as the bearers of the ark of the LORD had advanced six steps, he sacrificed an ox and a fatling. 14 Then David, girt with a linen apron, came dancing before the LORD with abandon, 15 as he and all the Israelites were bringing up the ark of the LORD with shouts of joy and to the sound of the horn. "

If I were Grace, I would find your description of her argument as “it is okay to hoot and holler and dance in Mass” insulting. She did not say that, nor was David hooting and hollering in the passage. If you think that all charismatic churches hoot and holler, you have little knowledge on the matter.

David danced before the Lord with all his might! The situation was as sacred as the Mass – *the Ark of the Covenant *was there. But reverence was not the only appropriate response – boundless joy was also appropriate.

It’s worth remembering the story of Martha and Mary. Mary took the better part. She wanted to spend time with Jesus, to anoint and worship Him. Charismatics spend time with Jesus in different ways than other Christians. You don’t have to be charismatic, but please respect that charismatic enthusiasm is a work of the Spirit.

 

[GraceDK]

2 Samuel gives us this account, and the “danced naked” or “almost naked” is one of those urban myths. The Scripture says he dressed in a linin apron, this was the garb of a Priest. His wife felt that it was unseemly for a king to don the simple robes of a priest.

This event also did not take place during a Mass or the equilivent ancient Jewish service, it was in a parade.

I think it is funny when this passage gets twisted into “it is okay to hoot and holler and dance in Mass”

"13 As soon as the bearers of the ark of the LORD had advanced six steps, he sacrificed an ox and a fatling. 14 Then David, girt with a linen apron, came dancing before the LORD with abandon, 15 as he and all the Israelites were bringing up the ark of the LORD with shouts of joy and to the sound of the horn. "

Okay… so the King was dressed modestly in a linen apron… that was not so much my point. My point was more that David was praising God publicly but in his own way, and his wife thought he made a fool of himself… made a show perhaps.
Lets be clear that there are differences between the old synagoges, temple cult and Catholic Masses. We know there have been psalms and musical instruments in Old Testament times. If they danced in the temple you actually don’t know.
What strikes me the times I visited Israel is that both music and dancing is part of their life much more than for us shy westerners. Whenever I went to Messianic services the people there were dancing in order to praise God. Sometimes they danced in communal ways, other times they were dancing their own way while being part of the rest of us. During their religious wedding ceremonys which I had the honour to attend among orthodox Jews, there was also dancing, clapping and singing with some spontanuity …
My guess is that dancing and singing and having different kinds of music, preaching and expressions of faith are very much present in the Universal Church. Like, in South America and Africa Catholics might worship differently than at masses in North Europe…
You could have spared your “hoot and holler” sentence… Its shows more about you than it does about me or any of the Charismatic people I have met. but to further fuel your prejudice I dare say the best Holy Masses I have attended were by priests who I know to have the gift of tongues… they could also preach so that your chest was burning to shout HALLELUJA or AMEN! as they spoke.

Peace

 

[DL82]

Have you thought about going to a Catholic Charismatic convention - if you can’t meet other Catholics your age who worship the same way you do, you could at least meet up with others one or two times a year at a big convention. In the UK, there’s one called New Dawn every summer, but I’m sure there are similar things in your area.

I wouldn’t advise going back to your protestant church though, it would be too confusing theologically. Do you have a spiritual director? If not, speak to your priest or someone else you trust.

 

[GraceDK]

Grace my friend, I am truly sorry if I have offended. I did not intend to belittle anyone’s practice of their faith.

The “source and center” of our Catholic faith is the Eucharist. It still amazes and humbles me after all these years, of everything that Jesus did, and still does for us.

I teach 5th grade CCD. In one of the classes during the year I take my class on to the altar. I ask who in the class is ever bored during Mass. Invariably many if not most of their hands go up. I tell them that I understand, but that the liturgy is defined as the “work” of the church. Those attending are not supposed to sit there passively. We should be attentive to the words of scripture, the prayers and music of the Mass, and the priest’s homily. We must be especially attentive during the Consecration of the bread and wine, and to avoid receiving the Body and Blood of Christ in a casual or perfunctory manner. In other words, the liturgy requires some proactive effort on our part. The priest is not there to “entertain” us, or to come up with novel ways to hold our attention.

Have I sat through bland and uninspiring homilies? Of course. Have I listened to music that was hard to sing and sluggish? Again, yes I have. But, I take comfort in that I can go anywhere in the world, and see that the holy Mass is celebrated consistently on any given day.

I have been to services at other churches, from Southern Baptists, Methodists to non-denominational. I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit is present in the hearts of the faithful in those congregations. I attended a service several years ago in a large non-demoninational setting. The people were applauding and clapping all through the service. I could see the fervor and their spirit. The minister who came on after about 30 minutes of music and other activities, was on fire, and worked the crowd like an entertainer. I left the service edified at the joy and the spirit of the people, and also the message of the minister, but I also felt I had just left a rock concert. As a pre-Vatican II Catholic, I was a little unsettled… and most of all I missed the “Real Presence” of the true body and blood of Christ.

My comments to my Catholc friend was not to de-value the spirit of fellowship and enthusiasm that she felt at the other church, but to encourage her not to lose the true focus of the Mass, which is not of man, but of the Incarnate Word.

I hope I have said this clearly. Again, I meant no offense and I ask your forgiveness if I have come across that way.

Dear brother or sister.
Thanks for clarifying.
You sound like a good teacher. However, I think it takes more than a good teacher of children in the forgetting-age, to change things in sick parishes. What they need most are parents that have truly gotten a powerful conversion experience and can pass on the authentic Christian life, speaking of Jesus as a truly present friend in the home.
As for me I pray the Mass… the Mass is an act of worship. I enjoy most the parts where I pray along as we worship God and offer to Him everything. To me religion is about relationship… not listening to liturgy that might give you high thoughts… but communication is the neccessary thing.
You say the source and center of your faith is the Eucharist. I became a Catholic because of longing for the Eucharist. But I lived as a born again believer for a while before that. And still I will say: Jesus is the source and center. He is the source and center in the Body and Blood, yes, but just as much in the Word and Spirit.
These four are truly necessary for a healthy Christian life in a community and individually.
If there is no preaching and teaching then there is also no understanding of what Jesus is really up to, how He is ALIVE, what He did and what He does, and what the Eucharist really is. So I get sad when I hear priests tell me: dont worry about the sermons… whats important here is the Eucharist.
Thats nonsense.

You say that you visited a non-denominational church and that you felt the joy and spirit of the people and as though you had just been to a rock concert. You do not mention that you spoke with God at that place nor that you felt the joy of Jesus or felt His Spirit. Why did you not?
The other day I went to a Pentecostal Church. I, and others that I saw, were very touched by the preaching. It was powerful… shaking, encouraging, full of wisdom and compassion. It opened my anxious and sad and confused heart wide open up. The Holy Spirit was there… He was at work in the peace and in opening my heart, and he helped me pray in new ways.
This was not a show… it was the reality of a meeting between me and my Fathet… If people doubt it because it was in another church then they must also doubt everything I say about inner transformation that happend during Masses I attended, for its the Same Spirit that works everything in everyone.

Inside I always shout to those who preach without preaching: “Why dont you PREACH?! don’t you have something to say? What the heart is full of the mouth runs over with. If you only knew the power of the Word!”

lasly, my friend, where two or more are gathered in the name of Jesus, there is more than a “spirit of fellowship and enthusiam”.
God is there.
Some evangelicals come to our Catholic Churches… they see no enthusiasm, no open Bibles, no individual expressions of faith etc. So they think we dont have Christ.
Let us not be as ignorant as those people.

Peace to you.

 

[GraceDK]

David danced before the Lord with all his might! The situation was as sacred as the Mass – *the Ark of the Covenant *was there. But reverence was not the only appropriate response – boundless joy was also appropriate.

It’s worth remembering the story of Martha and Mary. Mary took the better part. She wanted to spend time with Jesus, to anoint and worship Him. Charismatics spend time with Jesus in different ways than other Christians. You don’t have to be charismatic, but please respect that charismatic enthusiasm is a work of the Spirit.

Brother I am … humbled and grateful that you say with a few words of wisdom what I try to convey with a zillion passionate sentences… You are absolutely right…
BOUNDLESS JOY… oh yes… thats what I have witnessed and felt. And I wish everyone could witness people who have boundless joy because they realise truly what it is to be saved into the true life.

 

[DominicVobiscum]

Some evangelicals come to our Catholic Churches… they see no enthusiasm, no open Bibles, no individual expressions of faith etc. So they think we dont have Christ.
Let us not be as ignorant as those people.

Peace to you.

Dear Grace

In my first post in this thread to Whitacre_girl, I offered that she think of a single way to improve the worship experience of the faithful in her parish community. I think that working within the system to bring our church alive is not only a good idea, but is the duty of all faithful Catholics. Now some old goats (which I include myself in that category) never seem to want to change the status quo. I can understand and appreciate a faithfulness to traditional Catholic worship. But, in this ever changing world, we (as a church) need to be open to new and effective ways to bring and receive the message of Christ to the faithful, and to non-believers as well. This was the thrust of Vatican II.

I would offer that the place to start would be to work with existing liturgical committees within the parish (or diocese). It the parish does not have a liturgical committee, then maybe now is the time to start one.

Know however, that the church does have some liturgical norms that cannot be changed at any level that you or I are close to. In other words, some things are above our pay grade.

Blessings to you and yours.

 

[kage_ar]

If I were Grace, I would find your description of her argument as “it is okay to hoot and holler and dance in Mass” insulting. She did not say that, nor was David hooting and hollering in the passage. If you think that all charismatic churches hoot and holler, you have little knowledge on the matter.

As someone who has been in hundreds of Pentecostal congregations (I am a convert who used to be part of a full time evangelistic team in that world) - I have seen hooting and hollering, I have seen things that were the exact opposite of St. Paul’s admonition that everything be done decently and in order.

Did I say every Charismatic group hooted and hollered? No, I said I have seen that passage misquoted many many MANY times.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

As someone who has been in hundreds of Pentecostal congregations (I am a convert who used to be part of a full time evangelistic team in that world) - I have seen hooting and hollering, I have seen things that were the exact opposite of St. Paul’s admonition that everything be done decently and in order.

I imagine we can come to an understanding, then. I have been part of the charismatic movement (an ecumenical incarnation) for over a dozen years, and I have not seen hooting and hollering. I have seen deep reverence for the Mass, among Catholics. I have seen depth of personal commitment to holiness among Protestants, and I have seen that their interaction with Catholics in these settings has opened them up to the teachings of Catholicism.

So we have had different experiences, and made different judgments. Both judgments are valid, but neither contains the whole truth.

The verse right before the one you quoted (1 Cor 14:40) is relevant. The full passage:

Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

If the one admonition of St. Paul applies, which I agree it does, does not the other admonition also apply? Let us not quench the Spirit.

 

[GraceDK]

Let us not quench the Spirit.

Amen…
I have been places where the Spirit was quenched, many times I have heard the gifts belittled, especially tongues, or even dealt with with total sarcasm or disbelief, like healings could not occur today and its our holy duty to suffer silently and not ask God for miracles… We are content with the left hand, as Kirkegaard wrote… but the hero of faith would ask for the right.
And it seems to be never talked about much among Catholics… some only mention how things can seem or really get out of hand in charismatic services. But they dont question the services where the Holy Spirit is given very little room to work.
As for me I have often wondered, as I went in and out of my parish… where are those signs that Jesus promised would confirm His disciples’ words. How is it that we boast of theology and teaching and truth, but the crippled walk in and out of our churches unchanged and are hardly ever told to expect anything.
We say we are apostolic… but where is the apostolic zeal, the words full of power and prophesy from the pulpits, the ministries and gifts in the assembly that Paul mentioned, the enthusiasm, the signs and wonders, the open prison gates???
This is not merely a Catholic problem, but because of our institutional and intellectual order of things we are especially tempted to become little more than a philosophical community, infront of post modern man who longs for the super natural.

 

[gabriel22a]

I have never posted before, but this thread provokes some thinking on my part that may bear sharing.

Coming from a pentecostal protestant denomination into the Catholic Church was a hurdle. Obviously I was taught that transubstantiation–the Eucharist–was a heresy based on a misinterpretation of Scripture. I was ignorant of the truth and accepted what I was taught. When the Holy Spirit, through the Word, good authors and knowledgeable Catholics illuminated the truth about the Eucharist to me, I was completely convinced.

Now, there have been numerous accusations in this thread that worship in a charismatic setting is about getting an emotional high. For one, that judges the intent of the worshipper. Also, God created us with emotions and bodies–all good to worship Him with.

Just as I was ignorant of the truth of the Eucharist, I think that those who have not experienced charismatic worship should not judge either the worshippers or their intent. The emotional high of charismatic worship is simply another way of describing the bliss of close communion with Him. Which is found at Mass, at home, in the car–anytime we choose to commune with Him.

 

[GraceDK]

I have never posted before, but this thread provokes some thinking on my part that may bear sharing.

Coming from a pentecostal protestant denomination into the Catholic Church was a hurdle. Obviously I was taught that transubstantiation–the Eucharist–was a heresy based on a misinterpretation of Scripture. I was ignorant of the truth and accepted what I was taught. When the Holy Spirit, through the Word, good authors and knowledgeable Catholics illuminated the truth about the Eucharist to me, I was completely convinced.

Now, there have been numerous accusations in this thread that worship in a charismatic setting is about getting an emotional high. For one, that judges the intent of the worshipper. Also, God created us with emotions and bodies–all good to worship Him with.

Just as I was ignorant of the truth of the Eucharist, I think that those who have not experienced charismatic worship should not judge either the worshippers or their intent. The emotional high of charismatic worship is simply another way of describing the bliss of close communion with Him. Which is found at Mass, at home, in the car–anytime we choose to commune with Him.

Amen

 

[vz71]

The emotional high of charismatic worship is simply another way of describing the bliss of close communion with Him. Which is found at Mass, at home, in the car–anytime we choose to commune with Him.

I would caution against drawing a comparison of closeness with God anywhere with the Mass.

There is a physicality in the Mass that cannot be overlooked.

While one can attend a charismatic service and ‘feel God’
I can attend Mass and see God, feel God, and touch God.

 

[gabriel22a]

Having read so many of these threads, I assumed my last statement about the blissful communion with God would be parsed, as I included the Mass as a place instead of highlighting it as the highest place.

Thank you for pointing this out to others who may have missed the spirit of what I was trying to communicate. Obviously the Eucharist is the closest communion we can have with God.

 

[DominicVobiscum]

I would caution against drawing a comparison of closeness with God anywhere with the Mass.

There is a physicality in the Mass that cannot be overlooked.

While one can attend a charismatic service and ‘feel God’
I can attend Mass and see God, feel God, and touch God.

Bingo. You said it all!!

 

[gabriel22a]

Dear Whiteacregirl,

Thank you for being so honest in your posts and expression of the longing you feel for charismatic worship. You have expressed something I have felt and not known what to do with. I have been in the RCC for almost two years and love the traditional Mass as you state you do. But I do miss the charismatic worship.

My husband and I were both licensed as ministers in the Assemblies of God, and we know the power of the Holy Spirit truly working in the hearts of worshippers. I don’t know what to tell you about attending services outside the Catholic church, as I have not decided myself. But I do hear your heart and recognize that what you are longing for is not the negatively charged “spiritual high”, but the true worship to be found in the charismatic setting.

I will pray for you and I ask you to pray for me, as well. I believe the Lord led us both to the Catholic Church, even though my previously pastor husband is supportive but critical. I cannot believe that the Lord takes us anywhere that His grace is not sufficient for us. I am trusting Him with this, and pray that good will come of it.

In the meantime. I continue to pray in tongues at home and in the car, building myself up in the strength and love of the Holy Spirit as the Scriptures instruct us to do. This refreshes my spirit and fulfills the commands of Scripture as well.

If responding posts criticize what I am saying, I pray that God will give you the guidance you genuinely seek and that the wisdom of God will supercede the words of man, including mine!

You are in my prayers, with the knowledge that all things work together for good to those who know and trust in Him.

 

[mullenpm]

vz71, there is absolutely nothing more to be said.

You said it all. :yup:

 

[gabriel22a]

I guess the question I have after reading this entire thread is this: you can see God, touch God and feel God–but does this change you? The sarcastic and snappy responses to those trying to explain their charismatic experiences are disheartening. So disagree. Some people do it kindly, but some do not.

Yes, we all get that the Mass is the supreme act of worship and communion with God. That is very, very clear. What others are trying to say is that it does not make up the entire activity of our faith. It does not denigrate the Mass to want to experience the presence of God in other ways. Liturgy of the Hours, Rosary, Bible study,–these activities which sometimes occur in a group setting are acceptable and do not take the place of the Mass. Neither does a worship service.

A little more kindness and less “well placed” smileys would be welcome to people like Grace (I admire your patience) and the original poster.

 

[DominicVobiscum]

I guess the question I have after reading this entire thread is this: you can see God, touch God and feel God–but does this change you? The sarcastic and snappy responses to those trying to explain their charismatic experiences are disheartening. So disagree. Some people do it kindly, but some do not.

Yes, we all get that the Mass is the supreme act of worship and communion with God. That is very, very clear. What others are trying to say is that it does not make up the entire activity of our faith. It does not denigrate the Mass to want to experience the presence of God in other ways. Liturgy of the Hours, Rosary, Bible study,–these activities which sometimes occur in a group setting are acceptable and do not take the place of the Mass. Neither does a worship service.

A little more kindness and less “well placed” smileys would be welcome to people like Grace (I admire your patience) and the original poster.

Amen to that.

 

[tjm190]

I’ll often end up at some other denomination’s service while traveling- but only if there is no alternative. That’s rather irrelevant to your situation, but anyway- do whatever you believe will help your spiritual life the most.