A Catholic in a Protestant church

[GraceDK]

vz71.
You also mentioned that they came out with a bible in their hands.
Was the bible a Catholic bible?

The Bible is written by the Church, you know. It was also written by the Holy Spirit. The Catholic bible… is self contradictory. There is only one Bible. Even if some books have been removed, what is there is still the Bible and was still made by the first ecclesia and the church under the guidance of the Spirit.

As I said. Perhaps you left the protestant service with more then you realize.
This statement is contrary to the Catholic faith.
In fact, I would be hard pressed to claim someone Catholic that does not know the Eucharist is God.

Give me quotes and sources.
I believe you are the one who is contradicting the Catholic faith actually.
While the Eucharist is God, God is not limited to the Eucharist. Thus you may encounter God in many ways… both through His Word, in the silence of a desert, in prayer and contemplation…
As a Catholic you ought to know this but apparently you don’t.

Actually, we do.
In the Catholic as well as the Protestant versions of the bible.

Nope. You cant point to one place where purgatory is clearly mentioned. Not by its name and not in ways that are explicit in any way. You may have an interpretation, an interpretation that you take over from the Church you believe to be inspired like we do, but its still a fact that there is no clear mention of purgatory in Scripture.

It is also the Church. Read Timothy, pay special attention to chapter 3.
Why wouldn’t he lead people to himself?

He leads people to Himself, yes, but He does not lead every believer to Himself through the Catholic Church. Try take a look at reality.

This too runs contrary to church teaching.
I believe you have brought more from the protestant services you attended then you realize. How else could you get so many fundemental teachings of the Catholic faith so wrong?

I think you get things wrong. In fact I have said nothing contrary to the faith. Again, let me remind you that the Bible was written by the Church and the Holy Spirit.

You are reading more then is there.
Do not mistake love for the church for conceit and pride.

No I am not. Your love for the church resembles Sauls love for the truth before he had his conversion experience. A zeal without much charity. You may love dogma, but you seem to have little compassion for people. Sauls love was proud and accusing and he had God chained in his own belief system…

I am humbled to be in the same building as God, see God, kneel before God, and receive God.
It is something that one cannot experience elsewhere.

God is not confined to the tabernacle. i tell you this again. When you walk down the street you walk with Christ. Invite Him to live and reign in your heart, and you will feel His presense and comfort also when you step outside the buildings of brick, also when you havent received the eucharist for days…
Jesus said that the Spirit of truth will come and dwell within us. When I read your posts I feel you altogether lack the experience of the Spirit as a Person of the Trinity. God is not only experienced through the Eucharist.

Read Timothy. You may be surprised.

I have a few times, thanks. And I was not surprised. The whole Bible is very wonderful. I think you should study Acts… especially the part about Peters visit in the house of cornelius and his experience on the roof.
I believe you misuse Scripture actually. Your selective choice of little sentences strikes me as odd, when you accuse me of being protestant in my methods.

I think we have exhausted the topic and wont get on the same page anytime soon. so why dont we leave it at that.

 

[vz71]

vz,

If you have read the Gospels, and you have found in it some reason to pester those who disagree with you, I beg you to read them again. Even if all you said was true, there is a way to speak the truth in love. Unless you plan to do so, please stop this conversation.

Humility is not a chain; it is our glory. We have the Truth, but we must not wield it like a weapon.

Should I not challange the belief that protestant services are complementary to the Mass? That the fullness of truth is not found in the Catholic church?

Should I just leave alone the concept that the Eucharist is not Christ?

If you can lay claim that their heart is hardened to this and they will not see the facts for what they are, so be it.
But as it sits right now, I see someone that simply does not know (or at least claims to).

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Should I just leave alone the concept that the Eucharist is not Christ?

She did not say the Eucharist wasn’t Christ. She said that Christ was available to man outside of the Eucharist. This is church teaching.

 

[vz71]

She did not say the Eucharist wasn’t Christ. She said that Christ was available to man outside of the Eucharist. This is church teaching.

It would seem quite clear in this quote that this is not the case.

…The core should be the Eucharist.

The core should be Christ. If you have Christ you have everything. Christ is more than the Eucharist.

It seems very evident that the Eucharist is not looked at as God.

Should we simply let this go unchallanged?
This is simply wrong.

The Eucharist is Christ. Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

 

[GraceDK]

It would seem quite clear in this quote that this is not the case.

It seems very evident that the Eucharist is not looked at as God.

Should we simply let this go unchallanged?
This is simply wrong.

The Eucharist is Christ. Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

I have at no point stated that the Eucharist is not Christ. But Christ is not limited to the Eucharist. Christ was Christ before He instituted the Eucharist and will remain Christ after there is no longer need for the Eucharist.
I think you deliberately try to misunderstand things that are evident. I imagibe this is also the case when people like you finally listen to Evangelicals and other non-catholic Christians… you choose to read your own suspicion into their words, and choose to misunderstand. Like if someone says the number 1, you will then assume they did a crime when they didn’t mention the number 2.
Just like we call the Bible “The Word of the Lord” but the Word is more than the Bible… , so Christ is more than the Eucharist. Also if someone chooses to destroy the Eucharist, Christ is not destroyed, although He suffers spiritually.
I hope you understand.

 

[gabriel22a]

Oh my. This thread has turned into private venting sessions for a few posters.

My impression from reading the postings is that some converts have not been able to let go of their protestant roots and the need to feel good at service. The receiving of our Lord in the Holy Eucharist does not seem to be enough of a ‘high’ for some.

No comments by Catholics who appreciate the beauty and spiritual growth and love of the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Dear Savior Jesus Christ will change their minds so I think we should stop trying. If they want to return to their old ways, then so be it.

Statements that imply Catholics are people who are uncaring, mean and nasty (smiles in the parking lot, etc.) are so irrelevant because they are opinions of people who are determined not to like the Catholic Church irrespective of what label they put on themselves.

I was raised by a mother who was a convert to the Catholic Church. When we were young children my mother’s sister was always trying to drag us to bible classes, etc. in her own church. My mother never permitted it and I thank her to this day for persevering in being strict in our religious upbringing.:harp:

Ok, I am finished so back to the Protestants in the Catholic Church.:knight2::knight1:

Your impression needs some review as v71 has consistently, vehemently and with great repetition upheld and fought for all that can be found in the Catholic Church and in it alone.

Your generalization that some are just protestants wanting to go back to their roots is painfully wrong and accusatory. I know–I’m one of the former protestants and I don’t want to go back, but I do carry with me the good things Christ did for me before. And missing that particular kind of worship does not mean that I want to go back or that I am lacking some good that the Eucharist provides. I go to daily Mass and I love it–I feel nothing lacking in the Mass. But, as Prodigal Son has tried diligently and kindly to convey, wanting to experience Christ in many ways is no sin. And you judge the intent of the person by accusing them of seeking a spiritual high.

Good for you if you have all you need of God you find inside of the Mass. It wasn’t enough for Thomas Merton–and he suggests it’s not enough for us either.

 

[gabriel22a]

vz,

If you have read the Gospels, and you have found in it some reason to pester those who disagree with you, I beg you to read them again. Even if all you said was true, there is a way to speak the truth in love. Unless you plan to do so, please stop this conversation.

From Ut Unum Sint (John Paul II):

Humility is not a chain; it is our glory. We have the Truth, but we must not wield it like a weapon.

I agree–and great quotes. Is there any way to stop this thread? Appeal to a moderator? I think it is a circular disagreement that will find no resolution. I also think it is damaging to the Body of Christ universal to have this online. My husband–not philosophical or Catholic–calls it fighting and thinks it alienates people. It certainly would have alienated me had I been unlucky enough to find this forum before I entered the Catholic Church.

 

[vz71]

I have at no point stated that the Eucharist is not Christ. But Christ is not limited to the Eucharist. Christ was Christ before He instituted the Eucharist and will remain Christ after there is no longer need for the Eucharist.

Read Revelations. The Mass continues in heaven as well.

I think you deliberately try to misunderstand things that are evident. I imagibe this is also the case when people like you finally listen to Evangelicals and other non-catholic Christians… you choose to read your own suspicion into their words, and choose to misunderstand.

You are free to believe what you wish of my intentions.
I remain uninjured by your beliefs.
However, I do not believe you have made yourself very clear at all.
You have repeatedly avoided answering straight yes/no questions, you have substituted alcohol consumption for drunkeness, and there appears to be a stubborness to the idea that you can bring what you believe is lacking to church.
My point remains the same, there is no need to go to a protestant service for anything. If you believe something is lacking, BRING IT.

 

[dgrave]

Hello there. I also converted to the Catholic church at age 19. I can relate to your frustration because I think the same thing when I’m at church. Where’s the joy? Where’s the unself-conscious worship? I’m realising that the Catholic church lacks much fire in it’s belly and no wonder many young people don’t attend. I’m considering attending the local baptist church and like how the protestants stick more to the word of God, rather than man-made traditions. Best wishes and God bless you. DG

 

[dgrave]

I would say show some compassion! I believe she/he should go to a Protestant service where at least they take the beloved Word of God (ie Jesus) more seriously than catholic people. I believe that all Catholic people need to really read the bible themselves, and not rely on a mere man (Pope) to interpret holy scripture for them. I just say: look for yourselves, into your own conscience. Eg where in the bible is Mary venerated, where are the sacraments (apart from baptism & eucharist) mentioned or hinted at. I feel sorry for people who are swayed and attend mass out of fear of the fires of hell. Bye. DG

You are free to believe what you wish of my intentions.
I remain uninjured by your beliefs.
However, I do not believe you have made yourself very clear at all.
You have repeatedly avoided answering straight yes/no questions, you have substituted alcohol consumption for drunkeness, and there appears to be a stubborness to the idea that you can bring what you believe is lacking to church.
My point remains the same, there is no need to go to a protestant service for anything. If you believe something is lacking, BRING IT.

 

[dgrave]

How do you KNOW the Eucharist is Christ?? You believe it because you’ve been taught it by mere men (the Pope and his cardinals)! Jesus himself said to do it in MEMORY of him, as a commemoration. He paid our debt as sinners once and for all on the Cross. The Mass involves a sacrifice again - continual sacrifice but Jesus’ sacrifice was a once off (if you read scripture you’ll see this as fact). Please - read and learn for yourself, don’t follow teachings blindly out of fear!! The Eucharist is extremely important - yes. However, it’s more important to ask God to fill you DAILY with the Holy Spirit, who leads you to all Truth. Take care.

 

[gabriel22a]

Read Revelations. The Mass continues in heaven as well.

You are free to believe what you wish of my intentions.
I remain uninjured by your beliefs.
However, I do not believe you have made yourself very clear at all.
You have repeatedly avoided answering straight yes/no questions, you have substituted alcohol consumption for drunkeness, and there appears to be a stubborness to the idea that you can bring what you believe is lacking to church.
My point remains the same, there is no need to go to a protestant service for anything. If you believe something is lacking, BRING IT.

Are you trying to alienate people from the Catholic Church? The Pharisees had the Law and you have the Eucharist. As I see it, the same spirit motivates your responses as did motivate the Pharisees when they accused Jesus of breaking the law.

Now please don’t misinterpret and parse what I’m writing by saying anything about comparing the Law with the Eucharist. You know that is not the point, just as you have known Grace’s point, my point, Prodigal Son’s point, et al. The comparison is between your words and the words of the Pharisees. Bait and trap, pick at words, accuse–all tricks of the same trade. But to what end? What is your goal?

Read what the previous poster said–he’s ready to leave right now and go to a Baptist church. Is this the response you are looking for? Am I judging? Absolutely.

Again–how do we stop this thread? It seems like a cancer.

 

[Shlomo]

Come on Shlomo.
Why dont you join the conversation some more.
Is this just “hit and run” or are you interested in the topic here.
I see your name is Shlomo. Are you an Israeli Jew? Where do you worship? A Messianic congregation? … In Jerusalem, or Haifa maybe?

I would like to turn your question around.
Not, whom do I identify with.
But who identifies with me, on earth and in heaven.
The answer is the Messiah, the Brigde, the Foundation.
His identification with us teaches us everything we need to know about human dignity and the love we are called to live.

Shalom and Peace.

Yes GraceDK, I am an Israeli Jew and I worship in a messianic congregation in Jerusalem.
I personally believe God is not trying to identify with us as I hardly believe He wants to be human. But, surprisingly and in contradiction to my logic, He introduces Himself as ‘God of Abraham, Isaak and Jacob’ and ‘God of Israel’. Amazing grace!

Shabbat shalom

 

[GraceDK]

Yes GraceDK, I am an Israeli Jew and I worship in a messianic congregation in Jerusalem.
I personally believe God is not trying to identify with us as I hardly believe He wants to be human. But, surprisingly and in contradiction to my logic, He introduces Himself as ‘God of Abraham, Isaak and Jacob’ and ‘God of Israel’. Amazing grace!

Shabbat shalom

Which congregation do you go to brother? Is it Shemen Sasson perhaps?
You say that you hardly believe God wants to be human and yet you say you are a messianic Jew… You puzzle me now. You believe Yeshua is Messiah, right? But He is fully God and fully man according to the New Covenant…
So as far as I see, He identifies Himself with humanity and lifts it up into glory. But maybe I use the word “identification” in a wrong sense…(English is not my first language).
Would you like to elaborate?

Shabbat Shalom.

 

[vz71]

Are you trying to alienate people from the Catholic Church?

No I am not. My posts show this very clearly.

But to what end? What is your goal?

I believe I stated well my intent.
I cannot leave unchallanged statements written about the church that are simply untrue.

Read what the previous poster said–he’s ready to leave right now and go to a Baptist church. Is this the response you are looking for? Am I judging? Absolutely.

OK, your right. We should examine what has been written by this poster…

dgrave:

I also converted to the Catholic church at age 19.
Where’s the joy?
Where’s the unself-conscious worship?
I’m considering attending the local baptist church and like how the protestants stick more to the word of God, rather than man-made traditions.
I believe she/he should go to a Protestant service where at least they take the beloved Word of God (ie Jesus) more seriously than catholic people.
where in the bible is Mary venerated
where are the sacraments (apart from baptism & eucharist) mentioned or hinted at
How do you KNOW the Eucharist is Christ??
Jesus himself said to do it in MEMORY of him, as a commemoration.
The Mass involves a sacrifice again - continual sacrifice but Jesus’ sacrifice was a once off (if you read scripture you’ll see this as fact).

The bolded parts I placed to show what I am seeing with greater clarity.

I am not at all convinced this individual is all that they appear to be.
The individual wrote only 3 posts in the entire forum, the individual claims to be Catholic, the individual places several statements that are not simply non-catholic teaching, but are actually anti-catholic tripe.

Something seems fishy here. It that’s not just because it is Friday.

 

[GraceDK]

I would say show some compassion! I believe she/he should go to a Protestant service where at least they take the beloved Word of God (ie Jesus) more seriously than catholic people. I believe that all Catholic people need to really read the bible themselves, and not rely on a mere man (Pope) to interpret holy scripture for them. I just say: look for yourselves, into your own conscience. Eg where in the bible is Mary venerated, where are the sacraments (apart from baptism & eucharist) mentioned or hinted at. I feel sorry for people who are swayed and attend mass out of fear of the fires of hell. Bye. DG

Hey DG.
I am sorry this was your experience too. But as you see from this thread, severel of us are trying to adress the question, we see it, and we try to do something about it wherever we are. However, the structure of the RCC is very heavy… like a big boat.
I am a Catholic. I daily read Scripture. Its my Life, its truly the greatest gift God has given us, that the Words and actions of Jesus were recorded before they were forgotten.
I know many good Catholics who pray ardently, have joy, worship with music, and read Scripture too.
You will find in the baptist church that there is a lack of reference to authority of interpretation. I believe that if you do leave, chances are that you will come back to either the Catholic or the Orthodox church because protestantism lacks foundation in authority… even in my country the main protestant church blessed gay-marriage and remarry divorced people… they have a liberal interpretation of the Bible, and because they have no hierarchy and historical root, no one can tell them they are out of line with apostolic tradition.

You gotta do what you gotta do. But I hope you have given this a lot of thought. The Eucharist is not something to be left behind, unless you find no other way…

The Pope does not interpret Scripture for me, by the way. The interpretation is handed down to us as result of 2000 years of theology in the Church.
Please, do not leave out of ignorance. A lot of extremely well-educated people become Catholics because there is logic…
Our problem is with the spirituality, not with teaching.

Peac be with you.

 

[GraceDK]

No I am not. My posts show this very clearly.

I believe I stated well my intent.
I cannot leave unchallanged statements written about the church that are simply untrue.

.

You actually do alienate people.
You sit there and pretend to be the defender of orthodox Catholicism and does not understand at all what I am saying to you. So you find some thing to strike down on in order to discredit my points, saying that I am influenced by my protestant upbringing, even though my cradle-Catholic brothers here agree with me.
You really do have the finger of accusation… I think of the pharisee who makes sabbath into God, instead of understanding the right order of things.
I have said nothing about the Church that was untrue. You have proven nothing by means of sources… Only used your indignation.
I agree 100 percent with everything that was quoted from Second Vatican Council on the previous page. If you do too, then I am happy and we have nothing much further to discuss.

Lastly you tell me that **I **am to correct the things that are wrong in the Church. Thats a pretty big mouthful. Let me see, how do I, again, try to tell my priest that evil spirits are not mental phenomena, when he once brushed me off in anger … how do I get him and his colleages to preach repentance from sin, how do I, personally, come with all the charismatic gifts when Paul clearly stated: “When you come together, one will bring a psalm, another will preach, another will bring a word of prophesy, another the gift of interpretation of tongues… Can everyone heal, can everyone preach?..” (this is my free interpretation by memory from one of the Letters to the Corinthians).
Tell me, how is it that all ministries have been gathered into the priest in the Catholic parish? He is the only one who gets to say anything of use and when he does not, then the parish starts to wither… Where are all these ministries that Paul mentioned?
Thats, for me, the biggest problem… a structural problem. How do I deal with this? Do I write a letter to the Pope… ?

When it comes to ministries I think the Evangelicals have more truth than we do. So too when it comes to fellowship, mighty deeds, evangelisation etc.

 

[GraceDK]

.

Again–how do we stop this thread? It seems like a cancer.

With all due respect.
Please do not destroy it for the rest of us. I might not like what I read in this thread,
however, lets get everything out in the open.
We draw up some clear lines in the sand. This is necessary.
We should not be deterred from discussing these things. We are adults.
One of the things I have found stiffling in the church is the lack of wish to take
the discussions and to take things up and scrutinize them without fear. To question
things… If they cant handle the light of scrutiny then we need to know that too.
I think there is much passion in this thread precisely because the problematics are very important.

Peace to you.

 

[vz71]

Lastly you tell me that **I **am to correct the things that are wrong in the Church.

Not at all. What I am saying is that you believe that there is something missing, bring it.
Consider for a moment the illogic of the position here:
you believe there is something sorely lacking in the Mass.
you want it to be brought into the Mass
Yet you go to a Protestant service to get it rather then try to bring it about in Mass.

So who exactly is this person you are waiting for that will bring what is lacking?
Why are you waiting?

how do I, again, try to tell my priest that evil spirits are not mental phenomena, when he once brushed me off in anger .

If the priest is not listening to you, then your next stop should be the Bishop.
Start working your way up the food chain.

how do I get him and his colleages to preach repentance from sin,

Ask him?

He is the only one who gets to say anything of use and when he does not, then the parish starts to wither…

Not quite. History shows this not to be the case.

Thats, for me, the biggest problem… a structural problem. How do I deal with this? Do I write a letter to the Pope… ?

No. You work your way up from the bottom.
Start with your priest.

When it comes to ministries I think the Evangelicals have more truth than we do. So too when it comes to fellowship, mighty deeds, evangelisation etc.

That is truly sad.

 

[firstmode]

I am seeking Catholic (name removed by moderator)ut before I make any major decisions here…but I really need help.

Basically, here’s the backstory.

I became a christian in a charismatic protestant church. I learned to love God in this environment, and while the theology of it all proved ultimately flawed, I thrived in that church.

I became a Catholic about 2 years ago when I was studying to be a pastor for said church in one of their biggest bible colleges. I just learned too much about scripture and church history, and had to admit the truth in it all. Having come to the fullness of faith, there was now a lot of intellectual food on my plate…but 2 years later things are going horribly wrong on the spiritual and relational side.

I don’t relate to my parish at all. There is literally no one there in my age group that speaks my language. This is due largely to the demographic of my area. Secondly, I am not getting the same “spiritual buzz” that I got from my pervious church. Yes, I get a big lift out of eucharist (how could anyone NOT), but lately…I’ve felt dried up and dead inside. Compared to how I used to be.

I love God. I love the Catholic church. I fully believe in the Catholic church and her teachings. I am wondering how inappropriate it would be to attend a contemporary charasmatic protestant service during the week so I can still remain a very active member in my parish. I would not take communion, and I would hold fast to the Catholic church. I am talking about going just for the musical worship parts. I so greatly miss that, and it feels like part of me is dying without it. I didn’t realize how bad it was until I started listening to those old worship choruses on my iPod.

So, would be be sinning or cut off from the church if I went to an adult contemporary, charismatic protestant worship service, but refuse to take communion or become a member of that particular church? This may also prove an effective way to meet christian friends of my own age (something I am desparately in need of).

Does your Catholic Parrish not support Biblical Praise? I assume they worship as stated below?

Psalm 150

1 Praise the LORD. [a]
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.

2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.

3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,

4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,

5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD.

Are you allowed to Dance when you praise? Do they have a full set of musical instruments up there to give you the praise that David enjoyed?