A Catholic in a Protestant church

[GraceDK]

Grace, I’ve no doubt that the Holy Spirit inspires and leads the Catholic Church.
Are there practices that don’t especially please me? Maybe. People too? Maybe.
That’s my problem, not a flaw in the Church.

Now, my question for you is this:
Why do you call your religion ChristianCatholic? What is that?
The term means nothing to me. Maybe it’s used in Europe?

All Catholics are Christian. You must know that, yes?

“Not a flaw in the church”… hm. I think there are many flaws in the church… in the parish churches, in the leadership, hierarchy, habitual ways of doing things etc. I prefer to speak of church as the church we meet in our daily life. The other is theologically valid, but practically not what we are dealing with on a daily basis.
A lot of stuff is wrong in the church. The faster we admit it the faster we can deal with it.
I am the church. You are the church… the church is made of living stones. The Church is not God although protected by His Spirit and unified with Christ. The Church has made blunders throughout history both on a microcosmic and on a macrocosmic scene. John Paul 2. saw this when he said: “The Church needs to ask forgiveness”.
From my studies in the reformation I see that part of the problem with the Church back in Luther’s day was the lack of willingness to admit any faults.
People who did not start out as “reformers” ran their head against the wall trying even to find someone who would listen to them and honestly look at the points of criticism.
It’s often the same today. It seems some people think being a good Catholic means shooting down any criticism, reducing it to a “personal problem”.

As for my chosen title, I’d like to call my self Christian, for that’s one of my favourite words… I am so proud of Christ, you see, and I didn’t not grow up with calling myself “Christian”. I was baptised, for sure, but for me calling one self “Christian” was always a serious thing. I only started doing so when I had personally made a decision to walk with Christ after He graced me with a personal relationship with Him… unveiling my eyes.
At the same time I dont wan’t to confuse people on these threads. They may think I am not Catholic, if I call myself only Christian.
Then the last problem is the one you stated: that “every Catholic is a Christian”. What is a Christian then… I so often wonder. A Catholic friend shocked me one day as she said: “you are Catholic the moment you are baptised”. I felt that was rather like a robbery. Could someone at the ae of 20 be a devil worshipper and a Catholic all at once?
I always took labels and words very seriously. I like when people mean what they say and not make words void.
I thought some Protestants might come and attack me here for my calling myself Christian Catholic. But I have only heard criticism from Catholics.
I will now do something about it.

Peace be with you.

 

[juliamajor]

GraceDK-what is it you seek? You seem to dwell on negatives one way and positives the other…Perfection is not found in humans-never…If you seek perfection in humanity you’re doomed. I’ve heard dumb things, thoughtless things from every stripe of human being.The chuch is made of humans who cause all kinds of grief. .The perfection spoken about as more to to with tenets, doctrines,Tradition-then with the inhabitants therein.People will always, always,disappoint you.
I’ve been to all sorts of services throughout my life.Heard some good preaching,heard some good words-but without the Real Presence ,it’s just another building.
What kind of healings are you talking about?Physical?Mental, Spiritual? You seem impressed by these elderly folks who preach-again their faith ,impresses you. I’ve seen impressive faith, it exists in Catholicism, it probably exists in your parish among your people.-the problem is a they are invisible .Because a person is unimpressive outside-doesn’t mean that the inside isn’t spectacular spiritually. Seeking a spiritual experience, a spiritual high can be dangerous, because nothing else will rev you up.Being Revved up can be good if we remember the hard work dealing with the everyday. The problem is that many time that experience is right under our noses- we just don’t see it.I’ve been spiritually fed many times by the lives I’ve seen led . The Holy Spirit gives His gifts as He wills- no one else can say who it will be or why.He is not limited by denomination,race,creed or any other barrier we might put up.That also means your own church, your own parish.If you don’t see it that maybe you’re not looking hard enough.
What separates Catholics(East and west)is the real Presence.No other difference is as important…
May the Body and Blood of Our lord Jesus Christ, feed you nourish you and make you whole. Amen

 

[Bluegoat]

I’ve been attending some Catholic services recently, as I’m contemplating Catholicism, and I’ve gone to a few friend’s weddings this summer too. As well, I have some Catholic family and so have some broader experience in Catholic churches. I even went to Catholic school for a year.

A real issue for me has been the worship services. And I am not coming from a charismatic background. It wouldn’t keep me from becoming Catholic, but I know I would end up in much the same situation you are in - feeling like I have absolutely no spiritual juice going in, or only a tiny trickle from the Eucharist - enough to keep you alive, but not to thrive. And honestly, I don’t think it’s about emotionalism.

Keeping in mind that I live in a small town, so I have only very limited choices for attending Church and being really involved in my parish, it’s not very attractive.

I have actually heard some decent homilies - the wedding I went to recently, in another town, had a great and amazingly talented priest in homiletics. But the music and the liturgy!! Oh dear - indifferent folk music with really simplistic lyrics, or just cheesy sappy feel good stuff. And honestly, I find the liturgy really lacking - I’m sure it’s “valid” but its the use of language is poor and it just seems so clumsy to me. When I became a Christian we used the old lectionary that had been around for 1000 years, the Anglican service that is very much like the Latin mass, but in some of the most beautiful English prose ever written down, the Coverdale psalter, the congregation sang the psalms in plainchant and the choir sang the mass, Palestrina or Gallupi or many other beautiful and uplifting settings. Sometimes the Baptists next door would come and sing gospel music for us, which was also uplifting in a different way.

So I have no real advice for you on this, as I haven’t solved the problem, even in the Anglican church I have been attending lately, which likes all the new stuff. Other than maybe this is a time for you to develop a very strong personal spirituality.

But, on the friend front - that is also important, and hard in a new town. What about trying an ecumenical service group, like a food bank or soup kitchen, or one that works with disadvantaged kids? Anything that interests you and involves some people your own age?

 

[vz71]

Dare I suggest that you take the priests words and scrutinize yourself?

Absolutely. I read his words and immedietely started thinking about what I brought with me to Mass. And I marveled at the simple wisdom therein.

It seems you dont expect anything at all from a protestant/evangelical services. You in fact believe it would not benefit you at all, because you already have everything these other congregations might bring you. So you don’t want to visit them and you deter others from doing so, because you your self would indeed get nothing out of it.

Not at all. Doctrinal issues.
That is what it comes down to.
It has nothing to do with what I bring to the table and everything to do with what they (the protestant preacher) brings.

You can’t miss something if you have no idea it exists or if your heart is closed.

Yes, you can. This particular makes little sense, because everything has to have a beginning somewhere.

As for bringing everything with us to the Mass. We come as the frail people we are, full of needs. We offer our lives in prayer and worship, all that we are, indeed. But we also need encouragement, we need to be restored, we need the living word, we need the healing and the prophesy and all the things Jesus and His apostles exemplified…

I agree completely. But there is nothing in that statement that says to go to a protestant service.

You once said: “Then go talk to your priest”. I did. One said: “I am not supposed to preach, only give a homily… talk about repentance from sin?.. oh no, that might disturb some poor soul”.
I have been called a fanatic from the beginning by priests that believed in women in the priesthood, who called mouth communion “unhygienic”, slandered “the passion of the Christ”, called demons psychic phenomena, and told me that it was just nonsense when I told them I had seen dozens of healings at an evangelical crusade.
I have voiced my concern as I saw young people falling away or living in sin… but as a young lay woman I have nothing to say, and I was scolded for my lack of tolerance.

You are right, something should be done.
You are to be commended for going to the priest with your concerns.
Did you go to the Bishop once the priest turned a deaf ear to you?

If you can just walk into your parish church and make it truly apostolic then I congratulate you. Here it’s somewhat more difficult.
I am happy I am leaving shortly, because my faithlife does suffer when I find my self at places where the church acts like a social clup instead of as a powerful tool of the Holy Spirit in word and deed.

Here is the big secret no one seems to realize.
Protestant or Catholic, you are not going to have a good experience unless you come to the table ready willing and able.
If you feel it missing in the Mass, then bring it with you. God is not going to deny the fervent prayers of his people. Ask God for the help you need to bring about what you feel is missing. It has always been there, perhaps God will assist you in seeing it.

 

[mullenpm]

GraceDK, you are not Catholic; why do you come onto a Catholic website and try to turn us away from our our Catholic faith.

Give it up, please!!! You post sermon, after sermon, after sermon. When will you realize that you have nothing to bring to the plate.:knight2::knight1:

We have the True Presence, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. A Catholic has no need for the body swaying, hand clapping, etc.

 

[gabriel22a]

GraceDK, you are not Catholic; why do you come onto a Catholic website and try to turn us away from our our Catholic faith.

Give it up, please!!! You post sermon, after sermon, after sermon. When will you realize that you have nothing to bring to the plate.:knight2::knight1:

We have the True Presence, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. A Catholic has no need for the body swaying, hand clapping, etc.

Does Grace say she is not Catholic? She says she is–and nothing I have read of her posts indicates that she is trying to turn people away from the Catholic faith. Quite the opposite. You and your ilk are doing a good job of turning people away. I reiterate–thank God I came into the Church before I came across this legalistic, unreasonable, uncharitable, intentionally misinterpreting nonsense that comprises much of the thread.

A Catholic has no need for swaying, hand clapping? Wow. That’s quite a statement–characterizing everything she has said as “nothing”. I asked for this thread to be closed because I think it is a terrible witness–no love here. Just hard “TRUTH” which excludes an entire segment of Catholics who do enjoy charismatic worship. But these aren’t really Catholics, are they. Just deluded emotionally unstable people looking for a high.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

But these aren’t really Catholics, are they. Just deluded emotionally unstable people looking for a high.

That’s me! :extrahappy::clapping:

 

[babesinarms]

Grace, may I add that you literally ‘rock’. It is so refreshing to see someone able to carry their message of faith in such a ‘spirited’ manner! That to me witnesses that you indeed are someone filled with the Holy Spirit, carrying the ‘spirit of the law’, as opposed to merely the ‘legality’ of the law.

Don’t close this thread, it’s been the closest thing I’ve ever read on here that comes close to someone living out the true gospel of Jesus Christ, and it is a wonderful witness.

I came here originally to CAF with the intent of having a question in mind that I needed answering, having had two opposite answers from different priests. What I never knew about is the absolute fundamentalism that this branch of Catholicism preaches. This led me to begin exploring what Catholicism means,and believe me, it certainly does not mean universal. Upon returning to this Church in support of my rediscovered faith some years back, I was totally shocked to find what I had thought to be a universal Church, to be a Church in total disharmony and fragmented to the core. It has been this site which has led me to leave Catholicism behind, as an institution, once and for all. It has led me to realise that Catholicism is nothing more than a cult, brainwashing people for centuries, simply because as an institution, they have never allowed people to work out their own salvation. They TELL you what to think and believe. Kudos to those who have somehow managed to maintain any kind of faith life under this cloud of oppression.

People like Grace, carry the message of Jesus Christ. Why? Simply because she has experienced His living presence within her heart, her heart has become circumcised. Christ is no longer merely in the eucharist, He is living within. And that is the differrence that I have come to see primarily in these pages here on CAF.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Grace, may I add that you literally ‘rock’. It is so refreshing to see someone able to carry their message of faith in such a ‘spirited’ manner! That to me witnesses that you indeed are someone filled with the Holy Spirit, carrying the ‘spirit of the law’, as opposed to merely the ‘legality’ of the law.

Don’t close this thread, it’s been the closest thing I’ve ever read on here that comes close to someone living out the true gospel of Jesus Christ, and it is a wonderful witness.

I came here originally to CAF with the intent of having a question in mind that I needed answering, having had two opposite answers from different priests. What I never knew about is the absolute fundamentalism that this branch of Catholicism preaches. This led me to begin exploring what Catholicism means,and believe me, it certainly does not mean universal. Upon returning to this Church in support of my rediscovered faith some years back, I was totally shocked to find what I had thought to be a universal Church, to be a Church in total disharmony and fragmented to the core. It has been this site which has led me to leave Catholicism behind, as an institution, once and for all. It has led me to realise that Catholicism is nothing more than a cult, brainwashing people for centuries, simply because as an institution, they have never allowed people to work out their own salvation. They TELL you what to think and believe. Kudos to those who have somehow managed to maintain any kind of faith life under this cloud of oppression.

People like Grace, carry the message of Jesus Christ. Why? Simply because she has experienced His living presence within her heart, her heart has become circumcised. Christ is no longer merely in the eucharist, He is living within. And that is the differrence that I have come to see primarily in these pages here on CAF.

I appreciate Grace too, but I think you’re creating a false dichotomy, babes. There are plenty of Catholics who are very principled and uncompromising about core values, yet very flexible and openminded about the methods of worship and community. What things, exactly, do you cite as examples of brainwashing?

I agree that there is a lot of legalism and stodginess on these forums, but there is also a lot of truth. Out goes the bathwater! Keep the baby, though.

 

[distracted]

I
Just as I was ignorant of the truth of the Eucharist, I think that those who have not experienced charismatic worship should not judge either the worshippers or their intent. The emotional high of charismatic worship is simply another way of describing the bliss of close communion with Him. Which is found at Mass, at home, in the car–anytime we choose to commune with Him.

i agree to a point… but sometimes people fall away when the emotional thing isn’t there…

and there is nothing to compare w/ the Real Presence…

it is the Truth that will set us free… not emotional highs… and the truth is found (absolute truth) in the Real Presence…

do you spend time There, in silience… ?

 

[gabriel22a]

i agree to a point… but sometimes people fall away when the emotional thing isn’t there…

and there is nothing to compare w/ the Real Presence…

it is the Truth that will set us free… not emotional highs… and the truth is found (absolute truth) in the Real Presence…

do you spend time There, in silience… ?

People fall away from the Catholic Church all the time, and we “have” (I hate that possessive word like I did when it was used in reference to “having the Spirit”) the Real Presence. The issue is not emotions. The issue is the reality of your relationship with the Real Presence. And the Truth sets us free if we let Him. As Pentecostals, even, we were taught to not rely on the emotions of an experience, rather our faith is built on Christ. Sometimes God touches our emotions, so hallelujah. But it’s not the goal.

 

[gabriel22a]

That’s me! :extrahappy::clapping:

Good swaying and clapping! Oops–I think you may have created an emotional high for me…whew, I’m back down.

 

[Bluegoat]

I’m not sure that the Church agrees that all people need is the Eucharist. After all, if that were true, why would the mass contain anything other than what is absolutely required? Why would their be other sacraments? Why would churches find the need/desire for other kinds of programs (bible study, fellowship, etc.)

Just thinking of the mass liturgy, (I think the same principles apply to the other kids of groups in the discussion) there is lots in there, and there used to be more, that isn’t, technically, required to consecrate the elements. There is an attempt to bring people, both intellectually and emotionally, to a point where they are prepared to receive. Much of it is didactic, reminding us of the meaning, both universally and personally. They even use the body and the senses to help us in our contemplation of the divine, incense, beautiful music, bells, colours, certain ways of moving that emphasize what is going on.

The Church has always done this because it recognizes that the body and soul are a unity, that feeling and emotion, though ruled by reason, can also be harnessed to give power and fire to the intellect. Reason is the charioteer, and the senses and emotions are the horses - under the control of the charioteer but with purpose and strength of their own.

What has always been the hallmark of the traditional mass in the apostolic churches, compared to some of the charismatic churches, is that it does not substitute emotion for reason, but yokes the two together.

When the OP is finding the mass lacks some nourishing force, it says to me that something has been left behind. She should find, with only a little work, that she feels more nourished, because both of these human elements are being fed. Why is it that she feels less nourished?

I think the fact that she says that she found “cathedral worship” more satisfying is a good clue. It likely incorporated both reason and the passions to some extent. So it seems to me that works for her. But now, I suspect both are being fed only inadequately, so she finds herself longing, at least, for a time her emotional needs were fed and could nourish her spirituality.

As I said before, in my experience, many many modern Catholic masses have left behind both horses, and the charioteer is pushing the chariot himself. There is little for the emotions and senses to hold on to. The mass itself offers little intellectual material. We rely on whatever we already know intellectually about the mass to drive our participation in it.

This tendency in liturgy has infected a number of churches who previously seemed to take liturgy very seriously. I can’t help but think it is related to falling church attendance we have seen since then, in all those denominations.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

As I said before, in my experience, many many modern Catholic masses have left behind both horses, and the charioteer is pushing the chariot himself. There is little for the emotions and senses to hold on to.

Have you ever been to an Easter Vigil?

 

[Bluegoat]

Have you ever been to an Easter Vigil?

Not a Catholic one. Lots of Anglican ones. At my old church they used to sing Mozart, who isn’t my favorite, but worked for the Easter Vigil. Though I used to find the Maundy Thursday/Good Friday services more moving, the stripping of the sanctuary and the night of silent prayers with the reserved Sacrament in the side chapel, with lots of plants to represent the garden… very beautiful and moving. And I’ve always loved plainchant, more than Mozart I guess.

I should add, I’ve been to lovely Catholic Masses, and I don’t think they are totally devoid of content. But it seems to have been compromised in the liturgy (at least in English) and in some parishes the case is quite bad. If a person is stuck in one of those places, it can be nasty. I’m in an Anglican parish like that now, and after a few years it just sucks the life out of you.

It seems to me that both the Catholic and the Anglican hierarchy have somehow failed in allowing it to get so bad in some places. Of course individuals play an important role, but they need direction and leadership. Or you end up singing “Gather Us In” every week.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Not a Catholic one. Lots of Anglican ones. At my old church they used to sing Mozart, who isn’t my favorite, but worked for the Easter Vigil. Though I used to find the Maundy Thursday/Good Friday services more moving, the stripping of the sanctuary and the night of silent prayers with the reserved Sacrament in the side chapel, with lots of plants to represent the garden… very beautiful and moving. And I’ve always loved plainchant, more than Mozart I guess.

I ask because, before I went to a Catholic vigil, I didn’t *get *R.C. ceremony. The vigil opened it up to me. This isn’t to say that all vigils are created equal, but the fatigue (for lack of a better word) that sometimes shows up in weekly masses is totally transcended in the form of the vigil. This makes me curious as to whether some of the Vatican II reforms have actually hurt the appeal of the mass.

Perhaps the Tridentine mass has more in common with a charismatic prayer service than any of us would imagine. “All we who with unveiled faces reflect His glory are being transformed into His likeness, from glory to glory…”!

 

[Bluegoat]

I ask because, before I went to a Catholic vigil, I didn’t *get *R.C. ceremony. The vigil opened it up to me. This isn’t to say that all vigils are created equal, but the fatigue (for lack of a better word) that sometimes shows up in weekly masses is totally transcended in the form of the vigil. This makes me curious as to whether some of the Vatican II reforms have actually hurt the appeal of the mass.

Perhaps the Tridentine mass has more in common with a charismatic prayer service than any of us would imagine. “All we who with unveiled faces reflect His glory are being transformed into His likeness, from glory to glory…”!

Yes, well, I think you are quite right, actually. The Anglican vigils I attended were very much like the pre-Vatican II stuff, but in English. In fact, the Anglican liturgy I grew up with is largely identical with the Latin Mass, and the ceremonial aspect as well.

I think also, there is now less emphasis placed on the church seasons and feasts and festivals, which really contributes to that weekly fatigue.

But I agree - the Tridentine mass does have something in common with those charismatic services. And it’s directed, and intellectual as well.

 

[DLClark]

I am seeking Catholic (name removed by moderator)ut before I make any major decisions here…but I really need help.

Basically, here’s the backstory.

I became a christian in a charismatic protestant church. I learned to love God in this environment, and while the theology of it all proved ultimately flawed, I thrived in that church.

I became a Catholic about 2 years ago when I was studying to be a pastor for said church in one of their biggest bible colleges. I just learned too much about scripture and church history, and had to admit the truth in it all. Having come to the fullness of faith, there was now a lot of intellectual food on my plate…but 2 years later things are going horribly wrong on the spiritual and relational side.

I don’t relate to my parish at all. There is literally no one there in my age group that speaks my language. This is due largely to the demographic of my area. Secondly, I am not getting the same “spiritual buzz” that I got from my pervious church. Yes, I get a big lift out of eucharist (how could anyone NOT), but lately…I’ve felt dried up and dead inside. Compared to how I used to be.

I love God. I love the Catholic church. I fully believe in the Catholic church and her teachings. I am wondering how inappropriate it would be to attend a contemporary charasmatic protestant service during the week so I can still remain a very active member in my parish. I would not take communion, and I would hold fast to the Catholic church. I am talking about going just for the musical worship parts. I so greatly miss that, and it feels like part of me is dying without it. I didn’t realize how bad it was until I started listening to those old worship choruses on my iPod.

So, would be be sinning or cut off from the church if I went to an adult contemporary, charismatic protestant worship service, but refuse to take communion or become a member of that particular church? This may also prove an effective way to meet christian friends of my own age (something I am desparately in need of).

Try a solid Bible teaching church, like a conservative Bible church. There are many out there. You will find in most of these churches that the Bible (not man’s ideas about God) is the main thing taught here. Let’s keep this so and you will find the truth you are seeking for.

 

[GraceDK]

Try a solid Bible teaching church, like a conservative Bible church. There are many out there. You will find in most of these churches that the Bible (not man’s ideas about God) is the main thing taught here. Let’s keep this so and you will find the truth you are seeking for.

Bible teaching church? yep, I sure like the sound of that.
I also love to study the history of how the Holy Spirit guided the Bible’s coming into existence, dont you?
Year 382 the Bible as we know it was finally pronounced as the canon/ the compilation of Writings that were truly inspired. The Holy Spirit guided the Church in that process. One cannot therefore think that the Bible fell out of the sky year 33 and has been here ever since in all it’s simplicity.
Also, the creeds that are used still by the vast majority of Christianity testifies to how fathers of the church had to struggle every step to listen to the Holy Spirit and to conquer in Truth.
You do realise that you cant accept the Bible without somehow accepting the Church being led by the Holy Spirit while these particular documents - among many - were written and chosen under guidance of the Holy Spirit, right?