A Catholic Look at Mormanism

[KathleenGee]

Good point, Pap…

Mormons do not have historical explanations because they condemn it because it is corrupt, coming from ancient Christian sources.

There is too much inclination in Mormon thought to prefer to believe in unsubstantiated claims rather than seek the Truth.

 

[theidler]

Good point, Pap…

Mormons do not have historical explanations because they condemn it because it is corrupt, coming from ancient Christian sources.

There is too much inclination in Mormon thought to prefer to believe in unsubstantiated claims rather than seek the Truth.

What a convenient fall back that is…:coffeeread:

 

[KathleenGee]

True…for me it is very draining…but people encourage me to stay…because of the lurkers…

I still think former Mormons have the heads up though in discussing faith with Mormons…and they catch them doing the regular…

 

[Janderich]

Good point, Pap…

Mormons do not have historical explanations because they condemn it because it is corrupt, coming from ancient Christian sources.

There is too much inclination in Mormon thought to prefer to believe in unsubstantiated claims rather than seek the Truth.

Kathleen, We don’t necessarily condemn all ancient Christian sources. As a matter of fact I asked you to point me to a few a number of posts back. But you didn’t reply so I’m thinking Early Christian Writings: The Apostolic Fathers as maybe a good place to start.

However, in the case of John we have direct revelation on the subject so we will have to disagree. Joseph Smith asked specifically about this issue of John remaining on the earth. Here is the answer,

And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you. And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee. And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people. (D&C 7:1-3)

 

[theidler]

Kathleen, We don’t necessarily condemn all ancient Christian sources. As a matter of fact I asked you to point me to a few a number of posts back. But you didn’t reply so I’m thinking Early Christian Writings: The Apostolic Fathers as maybe a good place to start.

However, in the case of John we have direct revelation on the subject so we will have to disagree. Joseph Smith asked specifically about this issue of John remaining on the earth. Here is the answer,

Alright then - which ancient Christian sources do you not condemn, specifically?

Also, concerning the D+C reference, then it would follow that John did an absolutely terrible job of bringing souls to God. He disappeared for almost 1800 years, and then suddenly popped back into the picture??? Can we try to be serious here?
That’s like me promising my highest work ethic and allegiance to a company that has just hired me, and then not showing up for any of my shifts until, say several decades down the road.

 

[KathleenGee]

Janderich…

I did not mean to ignore you, and was also clarifying another Catholic poster rhetorically asking when the Church began…

As I said countless times, the Mormon religion bypasses all the events and works to insure that what we have for our faith is documented, verified, substantiated…

I have brought documents before, put alot of work in it…only to be ignored…so I have not wanted to use my energy much in that way anymore…

Our Lord is the one speaking through John in Revelations. I have an entire course work on John,college accredited… here so many feet from my desk…will access it later today…

No, St. John was not called to martyrdom. And Christ came to Him, spoke through Him in the Book of Revelations – no human feat, even for an apostle, an actual witness to the Lord could create and write out using such profound and mysterious imagery. Only those anointed in the Holy Spirit and consecratdi nn the Lord in Spirit and Truth…and called…can explain to us the meaning of Revelations. St. John died in exile. Here we look at the tradition of the Church.

As St Peter said in 2 Peter 2, we are to only listen to the Apostles who were the actual witnesses to His Majesty, Our Lord, and we are not to personally interpret Scripture…the whole crux of the Church…not the spin coming out on BYU’s ‘King James Bible’…that we understand the faith of Sacred Scriptures… .through the Apostles.

To trust in other, unrecognized books is not bearing the fruit of Jesus Christ.

I take it Mormonism uses its books to interpret Scripture whereas we rely on Tradition – how we are to live Christ in His totality–faithful to witness…not just one person…but twelve…with documented sources successors, teachers, pupils of St. John and the other apostles who had first hand living knowledge of them…I read some documents written by a pupil of St. John…

Problem with Sola Scriptura and American fundamentalism is that they are severed from all their historical roots so you have the Bible without the Church…Joseph Smith came out of this mindset…

 

[KathleenGee]

Janderich…

I will come back to you…there was an SDA fellow who challenged me…coming up ‘out of the deep’ when I was working with someone here publicly…he asked for references…I went through a number of points, references…and he literally invalidated every statement I made…was on here for awhile…I would run across him and again…would give him a piece of my mind…

But you are different…will get back…going to work…

 

[theidler]

Actually Janderich, I bet you I can answer that question for myself - I think the Mormons use some of the words of St. Athanasius and St. Irenaeus to support their doctrines, yes? (Which is odd, given that in the Mormon view, these men were apostates or whatever).

 

[theidler]

Janderich…

I will come back to you…there was an SDA fellow who challenged me…coming up ‘out of the deep’ when I was working with someone here publicly…he asked for references…I went through a number of points, references…and he literally invalidated every statement I made…was on here for awhile…I would run across him and again…would give him a piece of my mind…

But you are different…will get back…going to work…

I am a former SDA, and they are nearly impossible to debate with. It was hell growing up in that religion…Ellen White, the nightmarish interpretations of the Catholic Church, the pseudo-observances of Jewish laws, it was awful.

 

[KathleenGee]

I was going to put in a comment…just got a pm…

Janderich…are you pointing to the misinformation put out by Mormon sophists in May of 2008 that it was a miracle that Joseph Smith was proven right by St. Irenaeus and St. athanasius?

There is a CCC460 that is being very abused by Mormons…and the footnotes of the teaching are based on the Eucharist…that they ignore…I also wrote out all the passages of the Catehism to Tony888 giving the context to 460 which he ignored and continued to misrepresent.

I do not like Mormons misrepresenting our teachings and imposing misrepresentations back to us.

St. Justin the Martyr, Origin gave personal reflections on the Eucharist on entering the lives of the gods…but we are adopted sons and daughters…and we are already living in divine relationship with God…

The Church began as a seed…and theology and apologetics developed…St. Athanasius and St. Uldbethe would be the biggest defenders of our Catholic faith and would most resoundly oppose Mormonism…

So I haven’t seen your answer to who or what the sources are…but I hope you are not intending them…I am waiting for the right time to send in my 2 cents worth to the Vatican about the misuse of CCC 460…My instructor was appointed then by Cardinal Leveda who heads the Congergation for the Faith – Orthodoxy – and the only passage of any ecclesial documents he had us clarify with a pen was CCC460…we partake in the divine life but we do not become gods…one of the footnotes comes from St. thomas Aquinas who would greatly debate the Mormon religion against plurality of gods.

So I am going now…and I onlyl hope…I only hope you are not using these sources…misusing them as such is violating…the most sacred…the Eucharist…

 

[theidler]

I was going to put in a comment…just got a pm…

Janderich…are you pointing to the misinformation put out by Mormon sophists in May of 2008 that it was a miracle that Joseph Smith was proven right by St. Irenaeus and St. athanasius?

There is a CCC460 that is being very abused by Mormons…and the footnotes of the teaching are based on the Eucharist…that they ignore…I also wrote out all the passages of the Catehism to Tony888 giving the context to 460 which he ignored and continued to misrepresent.

I do not like Mormons misrepresenting our teachings and imposing misrepresentations back to us.

St. Justin the Martyr, Origin gave personal reflections on the Eucharist on entering the lives of the gods…but we are adopted sons and daughters…and we are already living in divine relationship with God…

The Church began as a seed…and theology and apologetics developed…St. Athanasius and St. Uldbethe would be the biggest defenders of our Catholic faith and would most resoundly oppose Mormonism…

So I haven’t seen your answer to who or what the sources are…but I hope you are not intending them…I am waiting for the right time to send in my 2 cents worth to the Vatican about the misuse of CCC 460…My instructor was appointed then by Cardinal Leveda who heads the Congergation for the Faith – Orthodoxy – and the only passage of any ecclesial documents he had us clarify with a pen was CCC460…we partake in the divine life but we do not become gods…one of the footnotes comes from St. thomas Aquinas who would greatly debate the Mormon religion against plurality of gods.

So I am going now…and I onlyl hope…I only hope you are not using these sources…misusing them as such is violating…the most sacred…the Eucharist…

I absolutely guarantee that Mormons are using St. Irenaeus and St. Athanasius to substantiate their teaching of becoming gods. I saw an article on it just recently - I’ll have to find it again though.
The funny thing is, their use of our saints’ teachings is an oxymoron. They claim the Church was in apostasy after the last apostles died (oh, wait…except for John apparently), so why are they using teachings from men who were, in the Mormon view, apostates and heretics???
Mormonism cannibalizes itself - its doctrines do not add up, do not substantiate each other, it is literally like watching a snake eat itself while in a twisted pretzel shape trying to avoid a flame. It’s ridiculous.

 

[Telstar]

I did a little digging and found that it’s believed that John died in Ephesus around 100 AD, where the Blessed Mother also lived before her death and Assumption. It certainly makes sense that they were there, together, since Jesus had charged John from the cross, with caring for her as his own mother (a Jewish tradition), “Son, behold thy Mother.”.

Here’s a picture of his tomb that was under a huge Basilica, named for him, that has since been destroyed:
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/...ca-st-john/resized/tomb-cc-francois-marie.jpg

I’d think this might refute the claims of him still being alive, but some people tend to believe whatever they want to believe.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormons just make stuff up. Eusebius wrote in his “Church History” that the Apostles dispersed, John going to Asia, where he died at Ephesus.

 

[Janderich]

I was going to put in a comment…just got a pm…

Janderich…are you pointing to the misinformation put out by Mormon sophists in May of 2008 that it was a miracle that Joseph Smith was proven right by St. Irenaeus and St. athanasius?

There is a CCC460 that is being very abused by Mormons…and the footnotes of the teaching are based on the Eucharist…that they ignore…I also wrote out all the passages of the Catehism to Tony888 giving the context to 460 which he ignored and continued to misrepresent.

I do not like Mormons misrepresenting our teachings and imposing misrepresentations back to us.

St. Justin the Martyr, Origin gave personal reflections on the Eucharist on entering the lives of the gods…but we are adopted sons and daughters…and we are already living in divine relationship with God…

The Church began as a seed…and theology and apologetics developed…St. Athanasius and St. Uldbethe would be the biggest defenders of our Catholic faith and would most resoundly oppose Mormonism…

So I haven’t seen your answer to who or what the sources are…but I hope you are not intending them…I am waiting for the right time to send in my 2 cents worth to the Vatican about the misuse of CCC 460…My instructor was appointed then by Cardinal Leveda who heads the Congergation for the Faith – Orthodoxy – and the only passage of any ecclesial documents he had us clarify with a pen was CCC460…we partake in the divine life but we do not become gods…one of the footnotes comes from St. thomas Aquinas who would greatly debate the Mormon religion against plurality of gods.

So I am going now…and I onlyl hope…I only hope you are not using these sources…misusing them as such is violating…the most sacred…the Eucharist…

I think I am being seriously misunderstood. As LDS we try and take truth where we find it. After your earlier comment about saints in the catacombs I thought it might be interesting to look into some of the early writings. I have no ulterior motive here. I hope no one berates me for it but I only have a peripheral understanding of Catholic teachings. I have almost no idea what you are talking about in your above statement. Based on a quick internet search I am guessing CCC stands for Catechism of the Catholic Church. I guess I should read that? If I do find something that appears to corroborate some of our beliefs I promise I will not beat you over the head with it.

 

[pablope]

Kathleen, We don’t necessarily condemn all ancient Christian sources. As a matter of fact I asked you to point me to a few a number of posts back. But you didn’t reply so I’m thinking Early Christian Writings: The Apostolic Fathers as maybe a good place to start.

However, in the case of John we have direct revelation on the subject so we will have to disagree. Joseph Smith asked specifically about this issue of John remaining on the earth. Here is the answer,

So. let me get this…you trust Joseph Smith’s vision, unverified and not investigated for authenticity…versus what St. John himself said here…in post 272…his saying, therefore: [4] that is, a report went about among the disciples, the John was not to die. But S. John himself, as S. Aug. and S. Chrys. observe, took care to tell us, that Christ said not so. Nor do we find any sufficient grounds to think that S. John is not dead.

 

[Telstar]

I think I am being seriously misunderstood. As LDS we try and take truth where we find it. After your earlier comment about saints in the catacombs I thought it might be interesting to look into some of the early writings. I have no ulterior motive here. I hope no one berates me for it but I only have a peripheral understanding of Catholic teachings. I have almost no idea what you are talking about in your above statement. Based on a quick internet search I am guessing CCC stands for Catechism of the Catholic Church. I guess I should read that? If I do find something that appears to corroborate some of our beliefs I promise I will not beat you over the head with it.

Yes, CCC is the Catechism. You can access it, here, if you wish to read it. But, that might take you a while.

You can also try this link to read some of the writings of the early Church Fathers. Many of those articles are from those who vehemently defended the Faith against many of the early heresies. They also include many discussions of the development of Church doctrines, traditions and beliefs, that clearly show them to be founded very early in the Catholic Church, contrary to what others claim were ‘fabrications’ made up by men, coming much later in our history. That should keep you busy for quite a while.

 

[Janderich]

So. let me get this…you trust Joseph Smith’s vision, unverified and not investigated for authenticity…versus what St. John himself said here…in post 272…his saying, therefore: [4] that is, a report went about among the disciples, the John was not to die. But S. John himself, as S. Aug. and S. Chrys. observe, took care to tell us, that Christ said not so. Nor do we find any sufficient grounds to think that S. John is not dead.

Yes, I do trust Joseph Smith’s and Oliver Cowdery’s vision. However, it is not unverified. All writtings in the Doctrine and Covenants have also been fully reviewed and approved by Joseph Smith himself, others of his time, and our modern day Prophets and Apostles. I do find the information you have provided interesting. I hope no one tells me that I believe many people lied etc. etc. Because we do not have John here himself, this is simply a disagreement.

 

[theidler]

Yes, I do trust Joseph Smith’s and Oliver Cowdery’s vision. However, it is not unverified. All writtings in the Doctrine and Covenants have also been fully reviewed and approved by Joseph Smith himself, others of his time, and our modern day Prophets and Apostles. I do find the information you have provided interesting. I hope no one tells me that I believe many people lied etc. etc. Because we do not have John here himself, this is simply a disagreement.

Janderich, it sounds like your knowledge of Christianity outside of Mormon teaching is rather scant (no offense meant at all). How often do you read the Bible? Maybe put the Book of Mormon down for a minute, and focus on some other scriptures for a while.
Also, might I recommend a few books for you? Give these a read:
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis
The Way of a Pilgrim (Anonymous)
Confessions by St. Augustine

Delve into the richness of Christianity - you might be surprised.

 

[Janderich]

Janderich, it sounds like your knowledge of Christianity outside of Mormon teaching is rather scant (no offense meant at all). How often do you read the Bible? Maybe put the Book of Mormon down for a minute, and focus on some other scriptures for a while.
Also, might I recommend a few books for you? Give these a read:
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis
The Way of a Pilgrim (Anonymous)
Confessions by St. Augustine

Delve into the richness of Christianity - you might be surprised.

The Bible is one of our standard works so I do read it often. I have also read, and love, C.S. Lewis. I have most of his books including* Mere Christianity*. One of my favorite fictions of all time is Till We Have Faces. Have you read it? Another essay by him that is phenomenal is “The Trubble with X”. I also started Confessions the other day. I’ll check out The Way of a Pilgrim. Thanks.

 

[theidler]

The Bible is one of our standard works so I do read it often. I have also read, and love, C.S. Lewis. I have most of his books including* Mere Christianity*. One of my favorite fictions of all time is Till We Have Faces. Have you read it? Another essay by him that is phenomenal is “The Trubble with X”. I also started Confessions the other day. I’ll check out The Way of a Pilgrim. Thanks.

Glad to hear it. Yes, I have Till We Have Faces, though I have not read it yet. I have a bunch of works by him though, and all our great. Never heard of “The Trubble with X” though.
I hope that those books reach you.