A Catholic Response to "The Scandal of NFP"

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Contraception is a human-intervention into the procreative process, for the purpose of thwarting and preventing conception.
You don’t get to define “contraception”. Remember, we are discussing what the Church teaches, so we will use the Church’s teachings based on the Church’s definitions. We are looking for the Catholic Answer…not the “other” answer. The Church’s definition of contraception involves an act, as Rau points out.
… that we must first have a marital act occur before we can say contraception was/was not used. [That is, abstinence is never contraception.]
Given the Catholic Church’s understanding of the act, and of contraception, you’ll need to answer the following questions in order to support any view that periodic continence can be used in a contrceptive manner:
  1. How is it possible to remove the procreative nature from an act that is not taking place?
  2. How is it possible to remove the procreative nature of an act that is infertile by God’s design (the “infertile period”) when that act is being completed in the natural manner?
 
I dove into this conversation without actually actually watching the Vortex video. I just took a few minutes to watch it, and It left me speechless. Well, speechless and laughing.
What is it with unmarried Catholics that want to tell married couples that they are obligated to do more than the Church teaches in terms of marital relations and producing children? As I said in a previous post, I think Priests probably know more than most of us about married life/relations/etc through hearing confessions.
But others? Imposing a burden of interpretation that you yourself are not willing to take on is just plain wrong. It’s not an academic exercise for those of us living these issues.
The Scandal of NFP is that it is a licit means to regulate birth for serious reasons that occur “not rarely”, but some people want to make it hard, want to make married people suffer, either through total abstinence or having more children than prayerful consideration indicates you should have.
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

Michael Voris is completely insane. He had a video saying that the best system of government is a “benevolent Catholic monarch.” Hasn’t he ever heard the phrase “power corrupts?” I don’t understand how anyone can take anything he says seriously.
 
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

Michael Voris is completely insane. He had a video saying that the best system of government is a “benevolent Catholic monarch.” Hasn’t he ever heard the phrase “power corrupts?” I don’t understand how anyone can take anything he says seriously.
:thumbsup:THIS!!
 
I read it all and I really appreciate your insight. I don’t know the Voris quy and probably won’t watch an episode but you really gave me food for thought about comparing the contraception mentality and NFP. I really got the message there! Thanks for your help.
 
You don’t get to define “serious”.
I do if I am using the term. Whether or not a person agrees with the definition that I gave is another matter. The point is, that the term needs defining, otherwise, we cannot meaningfully discuss the moral boundries of NFP, because an essential term is left undefined.
And no, the Church doesn’t say what you said. NFP is information. What you are referring to is *avoiding children * and spacing births, I believe. NFP is neither of these…though the information gathered from NFP CAN be used to acheive these goals. What you are doing is misrepresenting what NFP is.
Any careful reading of my posts would show that at no point did I criticize fertility awareness (knowledge of one’s body). Biology is not the object of my or Voris’ criticism.

This whole time, by “NFP”, I have been referring to, per convention, a means of avoiding pregnancy: notice the “planning” in Natural Family Planning, also called fertility awareness methods.

Mere knowledge of one’s fertility phase is NOT Natural Family Planning. The application of this knowledge, for the purpose of avoiding or achieving pregnancy IS (and in the context of this thread, we are specifically discussing the avoidance of pregnancy) – that is what the “planning” refers to.
Nevertheless, the Church says “just reasons” [the proper translation for what had once been written as “serious”] for AVOIDING FURTHER CHILDREN. That has nothing to do with spacing births.
You are making a false distinction that Pope Paul VI himself did not make. If you read carefully, you will note that in the paragraph in which he using the term “serious”, he covers both the temporary AND permanent avoidance of further children.

Temporary avoidance of children = spacing (e.g. a couple has three children, and they decide that for the next two years, they wish to deliberately avoid having another child, after which, they will attempt to conceive a fourth child).

Permanent avoidance of children = ending the addition of children to the family.

Humanae Vitae No. 16
With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.
 
You don’t get to define “contraception”. Remember, we are discussing what the Church teaches, so we will use the Church’s teachings based on the Church’s definitions.
Even Catholic apologists give their own definitions of contraception; they do not, in every single instance of their writings, use only the verbatim definition of contraception found in magisterial documents. That’s because there is something called paraphrasing and equivalent definitions, which vary in wording, but are identical in meaning.
Given the Catholic Church’s understanding of the act, and of contraception, you’ll need to answer the following questions in order to support any view that periodic continence can be used in a contrceptive manner:
  1. How is it possible to remove the procreative nature from an act that is not taking place?
  2. How is it possible to remove the procreative nature of an act that is infertile by God’s design (the “infertile period”) when that act is being completed in the natural manner?
You are misunderstanding my argument. At no point have I argued or suggested that NFP is contraception, or that it violates the procreative process. Why then, do you pose me the above questions?

I have already clarified, but will repeat once again, that by NFP, I am specifically referring to the timely-coordinated enjoyment of the marital act that knowingly and deliberately excludes windows of fertility.

I am NOT arguing that NFP is contraception.

I AM arguing that a couple is not morally entitled to use NFP just because they feel like it. The desire to use it does not establish the right to use it.
 
I AM arguing that a couple is not morally entitled to use NFP just because they feel like it.
Ana, I think you are entirely correct.

However the term “serious reasons” is understood, I believe it is clear from Church teachings that NFP is to be used after careful consideration, not just because they feel like it.

As discussed, I think the couples desire could lead them to explore their reasons and perhaps rightly conclude that they are serious, but it remains the case that each couple who wishes to use NFP has a moral obligation to consider their reasons before doing so.

Some people would say the process itself (abstaining through the fertile phase) effectively forces you to consider your reasons, because it is a difficult thing to do, and thereby it becomes highly improbable that a healthy couple, with typical labidos, would use NFP to avoid “just because they feel like it”.
 
I AM arguing that a couple is not morally entitled to use NFP just because they feel like it. The desire to use it does not establish the right to use it.
This is not a “real” example though is it. NFP (for avoidance) is never adopted just for the heck of it - it involves some effort, it can be hard. The intended result is no pregnancies.

I would value your response to my earlier post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11212869&postcount=131
 
Hi everyone,
Actually I had planned to also ask someone in the US to send CMTV a piece of my mind about this subject. I do watch the Vortex and Miced-up conversations they post in youtube´. Right now I don’t have money to help them because I don’t have enough money to buy a premium membership and, guess what, is also the reason me and my wife use NFP right now.
I have to admit I was shocked to listen to this theme not because I don’t think NFP can be abused but because of the way Michael and his guests made NFP look like. Especially Jay Boyd… a self proclaimed “Doctor of the Church” that in spite of saying NFP is so horrible managed to “only” have 2 children, which makes me wonder if she actually had intercourse more than 2 times in her life.
I don’t want to sound bitter, but it really makes me sad that they made NFP look so bad when it is actually hardly used… much less by Catholics. I mean, we know that there are more Catholics using contraception than NFP and NFP is the scandal?
They must have a different understanding of what scandal is. Or maybe they know all about the reasons why “so many” couples use NFP.
ahs thank you very much for your work regarding this.
I was a little underwelmed about that freedom of choice part of the answer from Terry though… I wonder if it is only with NFP that he is so providentialist, or also with medicines.
I really wonder if so many of the people bashing NFP have even tried it… to assume that all the NFP users are using it as if it were the easiest thing to do.
My parents stopped using NFP because it was too hard for them, and they still think they did the right thing. I cannot say that I won’t follow the same way, but I pray to God to help me always to be faithful.
God bless,
D.
 
I do if I am using the term. Whether or not a person agrees with the definition that I gave is another matter. The point is, that the term needs defining, otherwise, we cannot meaningfully discuss the moral boundries of NFP, because an essential term is left undefined.
I agree with you in terms of discussing our views about what the Church means…but NOT in presetning what the Church teaches. What Voris did was NOT present the Church teaching…but HIS VIEW on what the Church either meant or should teach. That’s well and good when everyone knows we are just discussing the theolgoy of it…but Voris did not present it like that. No, neither you nor Voris nor me nor anyone else gets to define “serious” when stating what the Church teaches. Our definitions are only valid in the realm of our opinions because the Church , in Her wisdom, has not set out to define “serious”, though a Pope of two DID give some examples of these things that “not rarely” occur… If you are to mean that you are describing “serious” in terms of what YOU think, that’s fine…but no couple in the workd is bound by YOUR definition of “serious”.
Any careful reading of my posts would show that at no point did I criticize fertility awareness (knowledge of one’s body). Biology is not the object of my or Voris’ criticism.
This whole time, by “NFP”, I have been referring to, per convention, a means of avoiding pregnancy: notice the “planning” in Natural Family Planning, also called fertility awareness methods.
Okay. So what is the method employed by NFP in avoiding pregancy? Is it abstinence, or is it contracepting of an act which is taking place? If it’s abstinance, then where is the problem with it? Is Voris (or are you) upset by the fact that a couple gets to enjoy the Marital embrace on infertile days?

I realize you are honing in on the “just because” of it…but that’s a false dilema. I assert that there are NO couples who use NFP “just because”…that NO couples volunteer to abstain from sex in the fertile window “just because”. Now, show me a couple who does.
You are making a false distinction that Pope Paul VI himself did not make. If you read carefully, you will note that in the paragraph in which he using the term “serious”, he covers both the temporary AND permanent avoidance of further children.
No, I’m taking into account what other Popes have taught…doing as Terry Carroll suggested and looking at the “hermenuetic of continuity” as he puts it. And Pope Paul VI did not use the word “serious”, by the way. That was a mistranslation of the word he DID use, which was “iustae”, which translates to “just”. (Explanation here: hprweb.com/2009/03/nfp-a-defense-and-an-explanation/ )
Temporary avoidance of children = spacing (e.g. a couple has three children, and they decide that for the next two years, they wish to deliberately avoid having another child, after which, they will attempt to conceive a fourth child).
…which the Church calls “an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood” (CCC 2399) and of which Pope JPII, quoting Pope Paul VI, said "Yet this discipline, which is proper to the purity of married couples, far from harming conjugal love, rather confers on it a higher human value. It demands continual effort yet, thanks to its beneficent influence, husband and wife develop their personalities integrally, enriching each other with spiritual values…It favors attention to one’s partner, helps both parties to drive out egoism, the enemy of true love, and deepens their sense of responsibility.” (Paul VI, HV 21 via Theology of the Body 59:6, emphasis mine)

Where’s the issue?
Permanent avoidance of children = ending the addition of children to the family.
…of which Pope Pius XII said, "Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called “indications,” may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life.” (Pius XII, Allocution to Midwives)

Where’s the issue?
 
Even Catholic apologists give their own definitions of contraception; they do not, in every single instance of their writings, use only the verbatim definition of contraception found in magisterial documents. That’s because there is something called paraphrasing and equivalent definitions, which vary in wording, but are identical in meaning.
But when presuming to teach other Cathoics what the Church DOES teach, we don’t get to change what the Church has defined. Your definition is NOT equivalent to what the Church teaches, unless by “procreative process” you mean “a sexual act”. Is that what you meant? If not, then your definition is very different than the Church’s.
You are misunderstanding my argument. At no point have I argued or suggested that NFP is contraception, or that it violates the procreative process. Why then, do you pose me the above questions?
I apologize for misunderstanding you. So, what you are saying then, is that even though NFP does NOT violate the procreative process, couples are not free to use it “just because”. If this is correct, then we agree. But I believe you are painting a false dilema in making that statement unless you are prepared to provide some example of how a couple can use NFP “just because” The problem you will run into in trying to come up with an example is that you are going to necessarily have to decide, for your hypothetical or literal couple, whether the reason they have is “just/serious”. And the problem with doing that, is that the Chruch teaches that this decision belongs to the couple ALONE and that preseuming to make the decision for the couple is a “grave offence”.
 
I read it all and I really appreciate your insight. I don’t know the Voris quy and probably won’t watch an episode but you really gave me food for thought about comparing the contraception mentality and NFP. I really got the message there! Thanks for your help.
You are welcome! Thanks for the kind words…it’s encouraging. 🙂
Hi everyone,
Actually I had planned to also ask someone in the US to send CMTV a piece of my mind about this subject. I do watch the Vortex and Miced-up conversations they post in youtube´. Right now I don’t have money to help them because I don’t have enough money to buy a premium membership and, guess what, is also the reason me and my wife use NFP right now.
I have to admit I was shocked to listen to this theme not because I don’t think NFP can be abused but because of the way Michael and his guests made NFP look like. Especially Jay Boyd… a self proclaimed “Doctor of the Church” that in spite of saying NFP is so horrible managed to “only” have 2 children, which makes me wonder if she actually had intercourse more than 2 times in her life.
I don’t want to sound bitter, but it really makes me sad that they made NFP look so bad when it is actually hardly used… much less by Catholics. I mean, we know that there are more Catholics using contraception than NFP and NFP is the scandal?
They must have a different understanding of what scandal is. Or maybe they know all about the reasons why “so many” couples use NFP.
ahs thank you very much for your work regarding this.
I was a little underwelmed about that freedom of choice part of the answer from Terry though… I wonder if it is only with NFP that he is so providentialist, or also with medicines.
I really wonder if so many of the people bashing NFP have even tried it… to assume that all the NFP users are using it as if it were the easiest thing to do.
My parents stopped using NFP because it was too hard for them, and they still think they did the right thing. I cannot say that I won’t follow the same way, but I pray to God to help me always to be faithful.
God bless,
D.
Excellent points. Yes, it’s disconcerting that some folks put so much energy into harping on couples who actually complete each and every Marital act in the proper manner when they engage in it, instead of focusing that energy on couples who are thwarting the procreative nature of the acts that engage in…contracepting the Marital embrace.
 
(From AnaV): I AM arguing that a couple is not morally entitled to use NFP just because they feel like it. The desire to use it does not establish the right to use it.
This is not a “real” example though is it. NFP (for avoidance) is never adopted just for the heck of it - it involves some effort, it can be hard. The intended result is no pregnancies.

I would value your response to my earlier post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11212869&postcount=131
(Post #131) Could you please confirm then that the following is how a married couple should see their sex life (in so far as exercising it is concerned):

If no there is no threat that a pregnancy would truly and unreasonably harm, in so far as a properly formed conscience and good judgment is able to foresee, the spiritual or temporal well-being of the spouses/family., then
  1. When you desire sex, do not allow knowledge of the woman’s cycle (fertile vs. non-fertile timing) to influence the decision to proceed.
  2. In general, expect children will be conceived at various intervals and in whatever numbers arise naturally from the sexual relations enjoyed pursuant to point 1 (and your fertility).
  3. Continue as above for so long as you are able to have sex, or until such time as a situation as above does arise. At this point, adopt continuous abstinence until the situation is deemed to have passed (or till menopause?) - then continue from point 1.
I, too, would value a response…it will probably help me understand you more, as we have seen that I already misunderstood on a key point earlier.
 
Yes, it’s disconcerting that some folks put so much energy into harping on couples who actually complete each and every Marital act in the proper manner when they engage in it, instead of focusing that energy on couples who are thwarting the procreative nature of the acts that engage in…contracepting the Marital embrace.
And quite possibily aborting a tiny fertilized little human being, complete with DNA…
 
For information:

hprweb.com/2009/03/nfp-a-defense-and-an-explanation/

NFP: A Defense and an Explanation

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What are the conditions according to which one may use NFP without offending Almighty God?

As everyone knows, after the Second Vatican Council it was widely expected that, despite the authoritative teachings of Pius XI and Pius XII, somehow the Church would and could change her teachings on contraception.9 But Pope Paul VI, in an action that was little short of heroic, issued his encyclical Humanae Vitae on July 25, 1968. Although, as we will see, Humanae Vitae continues the same approach to natural family planning use as found in the teaching of Pius XII, we are met with an initial difficulty, based however on an error. In the pamphlet edition of Humanae Vitae published by the Daughters of St. Paul, which features the “NC News Service Translation,” the section that deals with the licit use of NFP, section 16 of the encyclical, reads (in part) as follows:

If, then, there are serious motives to space out births, which derive from the physical or psychological conditions of husband and wife, or from external conditions, the Church teaches that it is then licit to take into account the natural rhythms immanent in the generative functions….”

This text would seem to teach that any licit use of natural family planning is confined to situations in which “serious motives” are present, so that the same conditions apply to use of NFP simply to space out births as to its use “for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life,” as Pius XII had earlier taught.** But this is not the case. For in this instance it is simply a case of a faulty translation. The Latin of the beginning of the above quotation runs, “Si igitur iustae adsint causae generationes subsequentes intervallandi, quae a coniugum corporis vel animi condicionibus…” (my emphasis).** The word erroneously translated as serious is the Latin world iustae. Paul VI thus speaks of just causes or just reasons, and there is no mention of serious at all. Fortunately more accurate translations followed, so that in the volume of post-Vatican II documents edited by Austin Flannery, iustae is translated as “reasonable.”10 But for reasons unknown to me, “serious motives” has acquired a life of its own and one sees it repeated again and again. Paul VI did not specify exactly what he meant by “just reasons,” and we will look at that more closely below. But here we should simply note that any use of Humanae Vitae to try to show that serious reasons are required for the licit use of NFP is simply based on an error.

Finally, let us look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church. In no. 2368 we find again the word “just” used by Paul VI in Humanae Vitae, and we read, **“For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children.”**12 This sums up what we have seen above in the teaching of Pius XI, Pius XII, Paul VI and John Paul II and may be taken as indicating the Church’s judgment on this matter.

From these documents of the Magisterium we can see that the Church does not look on natural family planning with a jaundiced eye. To be sure excusing reasons are necessary for its use. But Pius XII mentions th**e “very wide” limits for its licit use, John Paul II speaks of its value in the development of marital love. **We have also seen that except for its use over the entire lifetime of a marriage or for “a long period” the Magisterium has never required serious or grave reasons for its use. Let us look at the issue more generally and examine the question of what might be just reasons for its use. We should keep in mind what seems to be the basic line of papal thought, namely, that the longer the use, generally speaking, the more serious the reason that will be required. Thus for example, it would seem that for a couple with only one or two children to voluntarily cease having children would indeed require some serious and extraordinary cause. Or to space children six years apart would require a more serious reason than three years. And so on.
 
hprweb.com/2009/03/nfp-a-defense-and-an-explanation/

A very interesting discussion of this question took place in the 1950s and early 1960s by moral theologians entirely orthodox and loyal to the Church’s Magisterium. In particular, let us look at a work written by Jesuit Fathers John C. Ford and Gerald Kelly, volume 2, Marriage Questions, of their Contemporary Moral Theology, published in 1964.18 Frs. Ford and Kelly opine that, even with absolutely no excusing cause based on health, economics, etc., no married couple is bound by the law of God to have more children than is necessary for the general conservation and gradual increase of the human race. They state,** “There may be difficulty in determining the exact limit for various countries; but certainly today in the United States a family of four children would be sufficient to satisfy the duty.”19 Such an approach to the question of use of natural family planning was not limited to these two authors. As they state, “Verbal acceptance of the theory was expressed by a great majority of some thirty moral theologians who discussed it at Notre Dame in June, 1952, on the occasion of the annual meeting of the Catholic Theological Society of America.”20 I am not insisting on four children as necessarily the correct number. In Europe at least, with its falling population and huge influx of Moslems, a higher number would seem to be called for [why??? As european, i am not okay, it is so simple like reasonning, even a good analysis can have some wrong parts. The good view is very difficult]**

.** I only wish to argue that the general approach of these authors and of the pre-conciliar moralists was correct. Agreement on the exact number of children which fulfills one’s duty is less important than acceptance of the principle involved.**

In no way do I intend to disparage large families or those heroic spouses who do not wish to use periodic abstinence to space their children.** My only purpose in writing is to show that the Church, always a loving Mother, speaking through her Sovereign Pontiffs, has indicated a generous attitude toward NFP use, an attitude, as Pius XII stated it, of “sympathy and comprehension” for the struggles of married couples. ****These couples should not have burdens put upon them greater than God requires, and to know what the requirements of God’s law are we simply turn to his Church, the Catholic Church, the ark of salvation for all of mankind.**21
 
Fpt,

Thanks for providing Mr. Storck’s article. He has done a more recent one as well on the topic that focuses more on why we are seeing a sudden rise in “controversy” type articles. It’s also worth the read:
crisismagazine.com/2013/the-curious-controversy-over-natural-family-planning

“No doubt someone will point out to me that NFP can be misused. Truly so, just as any other legitimate human activity can. But how often is it in fact misused? NFP users tend to have larger families than the American Catholic norm, even if they do not have families of the size that the critics of NFP think they should have.” -Storck, “The Curious Controversy Over NFP”, linked above.

And we can flow right from the end of that sentence back to the question: “Who alone has the right to decide the number and spacing of children when meeting the primary end of Marriage…which is BOTH the generation AND education of children?”
Some people tend to leave out the “education of” part…and only harp on the “generation” part. Mr. Storck examined this in the previous article: " If we forget the words “and education” we are apt to see the value of marriage only in how many children a couple can have, and even to reduce a wife’s value to that of how many children she bears. But if we consider the phrase as a whole, “procreation and education” we will reach a different conclusion. For as Pius XII noted, “The work of education exceeds by far, in its importance and its consequences, that of generation.”13 And surely here education means much more than schooling. Perhaps it could be rendered best as formation, the entire spiritual, moral, intellectual, social and physical shaping of a child, so that he can serve God in this world and attain eternal life in the next. Certainly in order to be educated a child must first be generated and born. But, as we see all too evidently around us, not all children who are procreated are educated. And if parents are indeed the first and primary educators of their children,14 then the state of the parents’ health, both physical and psychological, has a great impact on their ability to educate their children. Thus if parents are stressed or constantly tired or overworked, they are not apt to be the best educators of their children. "-Storck, “NFP: A Defense and Explanation”, the article fpt linked

Sure, there are couples capable of bearing and raising and educating any given number of children. And there are also couples who are not as capable. Some can reach a heroic virtue of surpassing their own strengths…some not so much. In the end, the Church, who is the Authority on the matter, has left it to the couples to decide when these limits have been met, and when they have waned.
 
Fpt,

Thanks for providing Mr. Storck’s article. He has done a more recent one as well on the topic that focuses more on why we are seeing a sudden rise in “controversy” type articles. It’s also worth the read:
crisismagazine.com/2013/the-curious-controversy-over-natural-family-planning

“No doubt someone will point out to me that NFP can be misused. Truly so, just as any other legitimate human activity can. But how often is it in fact misused? NFP users tend to have larger families than the American Catholic norm, even if they do not have families of the size that the critics of NFP think they should have.” -Storck, “The Curious Controversy Over NFP”, linked above.

And we can flow right from the end of that sentence back to the question: “Who alone has the right to decide the number and spacing of children when meeting the primary end of Marriage…which is BOTH the generation AND education of children?”
Some people tend to leave out the “education of” part…and only harp on the “generation” part. Mr. Storck examined this in the previous article: " If we forget the words “and education” we are apt to see the value of marriage only in how many children a couple can have, and even to reduce a wife’s value to that of how many children she bears. But if we consider the phrase as a whole, “procreation and education” we will reach a different conclusion. For as Pius XII noted, “The work of education exceeds by far, in its importance and its consequences, that of generation.”13 And surely here education means much more than schooling. Perhaps it could be rendered best as formation, the entire spiritual, moral, intellectual, social and physical shaping of a child, so that he can serve God in this world and attain eternal life in the next. Certainly in order to be educated a child must first be generated and born. But, as we see all too evidently around us, not all children who are procreated are educated. And if parents are indeed the first and primary educators of their children,14 then the state of the parents’ health, both physical and psychological, has a great impact on their ability to educate their children. Thus if parents are stressed or constantly tired or overworked, they are not apt to be the best educators of their children. "-Storck, “NFP: A Defense and Explanation”, the article fpt linked

Sure, there are couples capable of bearing and raising and educating any given number of children. And there are also couples who are not as capable. Some can reach a heroic virtue of surpassing their own strengths…some not so much. In the end, the Church, who is the Authority on the matter, has left it to the couples to decide when these limits have been met, and when they have waned.
My comments:

crisismagazine.com/2013/the-curious-controversy-over-natural-family-planning

There is no mandate that couples must use NFP [In Catholicism, there is a mandate concerning the conjugal responsible procreation, the responsible maternity, the responsible paternity (see the doctrine). In addition, as the fideism and the quietism were banned, it is easy to state that the theoritical providentialism of procreation, the absolute natalism of the procreation, the absolute procreationism and the quiverfullism in the catholic sauce, in the catholic marriage, are not good, in doctrine and in practice. In my humble opinion, the catholic church requires the responsible procreation and the conscientization of the potential conception of the marital act, otherwise we are acting like animals. Here I am not on the same line than Thomas Storck. He forgets something: there is a mandate, the couple has to be responsible and thus under particular conditions the using of the NFP can be a moral obligation, a moral duty and a moral right.]

and I am not criticizing those couples who do not choose to use it. Husbands and wives are free in this matter, and those who use NFP, and those who, without resorting to illicit means, do not use it, have no cause to judge each other or regard each other as enemies. Instead they might hope that someday all Catholic couples will avoid the serious sin of deliberately separating the unitive and the procreative aspects of the marriage act.
 
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

Michael Voris is completely insane. He had a video saying that the best system of government is a “benevolent Catholic monarch.” Hasn’t he ever heard the phrase “power corrupts?” I don’t understand how anyone can take anything he says seriously.
I thought it was people and their abuse of power which leads to corruption? If you’re saying power corrupts then you claiming that corruption is a natural consequence of power. If this is the case we would have to conclude that anyone in a position of power is corrupt.
 
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