A challenge for those who don't like the music they hear at mass

[Faithful2]

Thanks, kage_ar for passing on your ideas. I may use a couple in the future. especially ‘let mortal flesh keep silence’

Unfortunatley this thread mirrors my experience in real life music ministry. There are far more people who willing to criticize than to offer suggestions, get involved, or be part of a solution…

I am sometimes critical of the music used for Mass, and I gladly take correction that I should offer more suggestions and be part of a solution.

But I also want to point out that if orthodox people in a congregation percieve the music ministers to be unorthodox in their theology and/or choice of music, and depending on how “far gone” and stubborn the music team seems to be, sometimes it can appear that there is no point in talking to them. I had this experience some time ago in a parish not with music people, but with religious sisters giving homilies and/or “editing” the scripture readings. When I tried to talk with those in authority, I was ignored and shunned. If people are stubborn and are not open, there is no point in talking with them.

When the Church splits up into 2 (or more) camps on some issue, the solution, and communication, is not always easy.

BTW, regarding music, I am one of those who advocate using orthodox music during Mass (orthodox to be defined by Rome and by our Bishops-- they are in the process) and saving the very contemporary music for entertainment outside of Mass.

If you like “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent,” there’s a GREAT jazzed-up version of it – only for use OUTSIDE of the Mass (oremusmusic.net/music.php ) . . . :clapping:

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[PaixGioiaAmor]

I am sometimes critical of the music used for Mass, and I gladly take correction that I should offer more suggestions and be part of a solution.

But I also want to point out that if orthodox people in a congregation percieve the music ministers to be unorthodox in their theology and/or choice of music, and depending on how “far gone” and stubborn the music team seems to be, sometimes it can appear that there is no point in talking to them. I had this experience some time ago in a parish not with music people, but with religious sisters giving homilies and/or “editing” the scripture readings. When I tried to talk with those in authority, I was ignored and shunned. If people are stubborn and are not open, there is no point in talking with them.

When the Church splits up into 2 (or more) camps on some issue, the solution, and communication, is not always easy.

BTW, regarding music, I am one of those who advocate using orthodox music during Mass (orthodox to be defined by Rome and by our Bishops-- they are in the process) and saving the very contemporary music for entertainment outside of Mass.

If you like “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent,” there’s a GREAT jazzed-up version of it – only for use OUTSIDE of the Mass (oremusmusic.net/music.php ) . . . :clapping:

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Jazzed-up music is not automatically inappropriate for mass. In all styles there is some that is worthy and some less worthy. Individual compositions should be judged by their texts and their compositional integrity. Don’t write off an entire genre.

 

[VociMike]

Unfortunatley this thread mirrors my experience in real life music ministry. There are far more people who willing to criticize than to offer suggestions, get involved, or be part of a solution…

True. There are far more patients than doctors too, but that doesn’t mean that only other doctors should be able to sue for malpractice.

 

[Faithful2]

Jazzed-up music is not automatically inappropriate for mass. In all styles there is some that is worthy and some less worthy. Individual compositions should be judged by their texts and their compositional integrity. Don’t write off an entire genre.

True, don’t write off an entire genre.

But we will have to respect what the Pope and Bishops are asking for, a return to more solemn music that is more suitable for the Mass. If they approve jazzed-up music, I will gladly listen. Somehow I suspect they will not. See ncregister.com/site/article/1480 and madisoncatholicherald.org/2006-10-26/bishop.html .

BTW the artists of the jazzed up “Let All Mortal Flesh” (Oremus Catholic Rock) do NOT advocate using that particular version during Mass – see oremusmusic.net/ and oremusmusic.net/rock_music.php .

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[PaixGioiaAmor]

True, don’t write off an entire genre.

But we will have to respect what the Pope and Bishops are asking for, a return to more solemn music that is more suitable for the Mass. If they approve jazzed-up music, I will gladly listen. Somehow I suspect they will not. See ncregister.com/site/article/1480 and madisoncatholicherald.org/2006-10-26/bishop.html .

BTW the artists of the jazzed up “Let All Mortal Flesh” (Oremus Catholic Rock) do NOT advocate using that particular version during Mass – see oremusmusic.net/ and oremusmusic.net/rock_music.php .

.

It all depends on many factors - including the local traditions and culture.

A liturgist speaking at a convention once pointed out that Pope John Paul II went to Mexico and celebrated a liturgy involving balloons - and he obviously took part in it and condoned it. This was part of the culture of the native people. He went on to say that obviously, this should not be an invitation for the liturgy director at the local parish church here in the states to do this - but rather, what was done was a reflection of the culture of the people of a particular time and place.

Liturgy is the work of the PEOPLE!

 

[VociMike]

It all depends on many factors - including the local traditions and culture.

A liturgist speaking at a convention once pointed out that Pope John Paul II went to Mexico and celebrated a liturgy involving balloons - and he obviously took part in it and condoned it. This was part of the culture of the native people.

I’m sorry, but it’s not as simple as that. When the pope goes to an “outside” Mass and sees something that should not be, what can he do? Stomp out of the sanctuary? No, he stays and celebrates the Mass, but that is not to be understood as an official approval of everything that happened in the Mass.

Here is what Cardinal Arinze said about exactly this sort of situation regarding papal Masses:

Somebody can say, “but the pope visited this county and the people danced”. A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father – he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged. And somebody introduces something funny – is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out! If people want to dance, they know where to go.

 

[VAC]

I am sometimes critical of the music used for Mass, and I gladly take correction that I should offer more suggestions and be part of a solution.

But I also want to point out that if orthodox people in a congregation percieve the music ministers to be unorthodox in their theology and/or choice of music, and depending on how “far gone” and stubborn the music team seems to be, sometimes it can appear that there is no point in talking to them. I had this experience some time ago in a parish not with music people, but with religious sisters giving homilies and/or “editing” the scripture readings. When I tried to talk with those in authority, I was ignored and shunned. If people are stubborn and are not open, there is no point in talking with them.

When the Church splits up into 2 (or more) camps on some issue, the solution, and communication, is not always easy.

BTW, regarding music, I am one of those who advocate using orthodox music during Mass (orthodox to be defined by Rome and by our Bishops-- they are in the process) and saving the very contemporary music for entertainment outside of Mass.

If you like “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent,” there’s a GREAT jazzed-up version of it – only for use OUTSIDE of the Mass (oremusmusic.net/music.php ) . . . :clapping:

.

Thanks for posting that link…

I am horrified at the idea of anyone editing a mass reading.

I generally welcome comments from the ‘peanut gallery’ if they are constructive. Althought I don’t implement every suggestion I get, I do listen and have learned from many of them.

When I’d just started leading the music at mass an elderly woman came up to me afterward and told me that although our music was pretty. she felt like she was at a funeral. "This is the children’s mass!! Play something upbeat.!!, you’re putting people to sleep.

I had the director of ministries come to me and tell me to play upbeat offertory songs so people would be AWAKE when that plate was going around.

Within the same week a fellow choir member came to me and said “You know, the Vatican says we should be playing Gregorian chant at mass”. (At that point, neither of us knew any Latin, much less any Gregorian chant, but that’s beside the point… ) You cannot please everyone…

So the next time the ‘funeral music’ complainer said something to me, I offered her, and everyone else in the choir the opportunity to submit song suggestions in advance for any given Sunday mass. I asked her which musical instruments she would prefer to hear, she could not answer.
Our pianist sat down with her and showed her our books and asked her if there was anything she’d like to hear…

The woman never offered a single song suggestion Imagine that!!! I have to admit that once she learned that all of us in the music ministry were unpaid volunteers, her criticism of us subsided.

So I try to focus on the message of the readings, and now the anthipons … See, I learned something here

I do admit that I feel if one is going to complain and is not going to offer constructive suggestions for improvement, volunteer to join and help, or produce valid theological reasons why songs are not appropriate,
then I am not going to give much weight to what they have to say.

 

[Songirl]

We are an orthodox Charismatic Catholic parish.We try to do as the Church proscribes for music, Latin taking pride of place. (we still need an organ). We also sing in tongues Sing praise songs and traditional Catholic hymns. Fun. We follow the Liturgy and the readings and our resident composers write settings for the Res. Psalm, etc.
What think ye?

 

[VAC]

We are an orthodox Charismatic Catholic parish.We try to do as the Church proscribes for music, Latin taking pride of place. (we still need an organ). We also sing in tongues Sing praise songs and traditional Catholic hymns. Fun. We follow the Liturgy and the readings and our resident composers write settings for the Res. Psalm, etc.
What think ye?

If you’re serious (can’t tell with the grins) I love it. We really could almost please everybody…
I’d like to check out those original psalm settings… Sometimes I am not excited with the ones in the respond and acclaim books we have.

 

[grandadmiralboo]

Christ is not present in three ways but in five ways. According to Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy from Vatican II He is present in:

1. in the priest during the liturgy
2. ESPECIALLY under the Eucharist
3. in the sacraments
4. in His Word
5. when the Church prays and sings

Paragraph 7 of SC states:

To accomplish so great a work, Christ is always present in His Church, especially in her liturgical celebrations. He is present in the sacrifice of the Mass, not only in the person of His minister, “the same now offering, through the ministry of priests, who formerly offered himself on the cross” (20), but especially under the eucharistic species. By His power He is present in the sacraments, so that when a man baptizes it is really Christ Himself who baptizes (21). He is present in His word, since it is He Himself who speaks when the holy scriptures are read in the Church. He is present, lastly, when the Church prays and sings, for He promised: “Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them” (Matt. 18:20) .

Pax

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I’m sorry, but it’s not as simple as that. When the pope goes to an “outside” Mass and sees something that should not be, what can he do? Stomp out of the sanctuary? No, he stays and celebrates the Mass, but that is not to be understood as an official approval of everything that happened in the Mass.

Here is what Cardinal Arinze said about exactly this sort of situation regarding papal Masses:

Somebody can say, “but the pope visited this county and the people danced”. A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father – he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged. And somebody introduces something funny – is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out! If people want to dance, they know where to go.

I have never seen this quote before. I suppose what the Cardinal said, he said; but I’d pose this question:

When our bishop goes to a parish and sees things he does not like, he makes a note, and afterwards, the offending parish gets a kind but stern letter pointing out the problem and asking for what changes the bishop wants to rectify the situation, if any.

Surely the Holy Father cannot and does not do this as well when he visits a diocese and sees something he does not like?

Also, I find it hard to believe that the Vatican does not send a whole team out in the days and weeks prior to the papal liturgy to plan the liturgy and find out what is in the works. That is done to great lengths in our diocese for a simple sunday mass in which the bishop presides and even more so for a Chrism mass or ordination mas. Surely it would be done to an even greater extent for a national liturgy involving the pope?

 

[VociMike]

I have never seen this quote before. I suppose what the Cardinal said, he said; but I’d pose this question:

When our bishop goes to a parish and sees things he does not like, he makes a note, and afterwards, the offending parish gets a kind but stern letter pointing out the problem and asking for what changes the bishop wants to rectify the situation, if any.

Surely the Holy Father cannot and does not do this as well when he visits a diocese and sees something he does not like?

Also, I find it hard to believe that the Vatican does not send a whole team out in the days and weeks prior to the papal liturgy to plan the liturgy and find out what is in the works. That is done to great lengths in our diocese for a simple sunday mass in which the bishop presides and even more so for a Chrism mass or ordination mas. Surely it would be done to an even greater extent for a national liturgy involving the pope?

I am not (obviously) in a position to answer this question. I can say that the relationship of a bishop to the parishes in his diocese is very different from the relationship of the pope to those locations outside the Vatican where he says Masses. The pope in these instances is more of a guest, but the bishop is not a guest in his own diocese.

 

[VAC]

True. There are far more patients than doctors too, but that doesn’t mean that only other doctors should be able to sue for malpractice.

Yes, but you don’t need a degree and license to practice music!

Standards of care are also in place by licensing authorities and individual healthcare facilities. If these are violated, yes there would be basis for a lawsuit.

To take your analogy a step further…
Let’s suppose a patient choses to withhold information such as symptoms or reactions to medication or treatment from his doctor. Would the doctor be able to adjust medication regimens or try alternate treatments?
Would a person then still be justified in complaining about their doctor not treating them appropriately??