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GKC
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Hence, in the Augustinian view, the utility of the distinction between valid and licit.
GKC
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GKC
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GKC
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Would it be presumptuous to ask in which jurisdiction your daughter’s Godfather hangs his miter?
GKC
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GKC
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And I’m rather fond of the Church you are now in.
Though i differ a little on the take re: proliferation of valid orders. As you know, the bulk of the Continuum trace their orders to +Chambers, who, by happenstance, not by selection, had PNCC lines. In fact, given the proliferation of both OC (Utrecht) and PNCC lines in Anglicanism since 1932, it would have taken an effort to find an Episcopal prelate to consecrate in 1979 who *didn’*t possess some form of Dutch touch. No one was going to try to do so, of course. It was hard enough to find Chambers. Hence, valid, illicit lines.
GKC
posterus traditus Anglicanus
Suudy
Active member
Disagreement does not equal disdain. I find it odd that some find offense in disagreement with an idea or concept. Stating that Anglicans may not have valid orders is not an assault on the personhood of Anglican bishops. It is merely a statement of their position within the Catholic church, i.e. that they might not be validly consecrated as Catholic bishops.
How is that uncordial?
Must the Catholic church accept their position as they have accepted the Catholic church’s position? If that were the sole criterion, then a host of other issues would crop up. For example, a polygamist accepts monagamous marriages, why shouldn’t those that believe in monagmy accept polygamy? The abortion lobby accepts our right to give birth to children, so why shouldn’t we accept their right to abort unborn children?
There is more to it than the fact that the Anglican communion has accepted Catholic orders. It has to do with what is objectively right and true. And that is what is being discussed. And disagreeing with the Anglican position is not uncordial.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
Global and worldwide and yet not Catholic. Nor universal.
It has to be all times, as well as all places according to the criteria of St. Vincent Lerins. GAFCON doesn’t even unite people of a single generation.
Can any Anglican from anywhere walk into any church connected with GAFCON? Can Gene Robinson? Barbara Harris?
Any anathemas for the behavior that is being deplored? No. Ersatz Ecumenical Council.
It is high irony that it found the 1662 Book of Common Prayer “a true and authoritative standard of worship and prayer.” Failing to both satisfy the Protestant and bring Anglicanism in line with the Cahtholic Church, its Prayers were not in common. Cramner’s attempts to satisfy everyone showed its cracks. And the traditon of compromise is why the GAFCON tradtionalists find themselves in the situation that they are in. Swimming the Bosphoros (actuallyt the Orentes or Volga), swimming the Tiber, or adrift on the Thames.
It doesn’t work that way. St. Ignatius wrote “where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church.” Each Church is the Catholic Church in its entirety, and in communion with the Cathoilc Church in its entirety (including past generations).
If it doesn’t fit that criteria, its not part of the Catholic Church. It’s an all or nothing proposition.
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GKC
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nonjuror
Guest
It doesn’t work that way. St. Ignatius wrote “where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church.” Each Church is the Catholic Church in its entirety, and in communion with the Cathoilc Church in its entirety (including past generations).
Who would disagree ? I do not and neither does the Church in England as far as I know.
If it doesn’t fit that criteria, its not part of the Catholic Church. It’s an all or nothing proposition.
"Where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church."Who would disagree ? I do not and neither does the Church in England as far as I know.
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mercygate
Guest
Ut unum sint. Any legitimate bishop is the Ordinary head of his jurisdiction. Whether the jurisdiction itself is legitimate depends on the Bishop’s unity with the rest of the Church. Where would you put my former Ordinary, Jack Spong, on your “there is the Catholic Church” list? Jim Pike?
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Contarini
Guest
Could you provide a reference for that quote? I’m familiar with the passage in the letter to the Smyrnaeans, chap. 8, where Ignatius says:
Is that the passage you are thinking of? It does not say that the presence of a bishop is sufficient to constitute the Catholic Church. St. Ignatius doesn’t get into that question.
The position you are defending has been deduced from Ignatius by the proponents of “eucharistic ecclesiology.” But to do this you have to write off other important parts of the patristic heritage, particularly the teaching of St. Cyprian.
Edwin
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Isa_Almisry
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"Where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church."
Who would disagree ? I do not and neither does the Church in England as far as I know.
Yes, they do.
The idea that you can have a female bishop here, and a bishop that doesnt’ accept female bishops there, a bishop who is an active homosexual over here, and a bishop who doesn’t accept him over there (with parishes under him over here) is the antithesis of the Catholic idea of the episcopacy. So is the idea that the Anglican church is the Catholic church of England (the reason why only Anglican bishops can be bishops of historic sees). Catholicism knows no branches.
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Isa_Almisry
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Isa_Almisry
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Yes. And actually, yes he does.
Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop.** He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil**. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for you are worthy. You have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ [shall refresh] you. You have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while you endure all things, you shall attain unto Him.
You mean Holy Orthodoxy.
Such as?
I think I was the one who brought up St. Cyprian.
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ibkc
Guest
‘C’ can be hard or soft in English. Do you pronounce ‘car’ as ‘sar’? ‘Catherine’ as ‘Satherine’? ‘Crabapple’ as ‘srabapple’? Gosh, talking to you could well be like getting stuck in a Monty Python sketch.but it’s the rule in English, and that’s what we are speaking (well, writing).
And since this word originates from the time when these tribes existed, that should be a big clue as to how the word is to be pronounced.
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nonjuror
Guest
An Anglican is someone who holds to the ancient faith and tradition ,this is to hold the Catholic Faith,
When the Anglican Communion ceased to believe, we,following
the injunctions of the Councils, put ourselves under Catholic bishops and severed our connection with the A/C… I joined what is known as the Continuum. The original Communions! We do not tolerate women in any orders, neither do we accept Homosexuals as clergy. We have not tolerated ‘Flying Bishops’ either and have as far as I can tell no intention of doing so. Neither as far as I know are we interested in talks with Rome, unless they are prepared to accept us as we are. Rome is based on heresy as far as I can see.
This is not to say we have not made mistakes! The greatest one obviously is not asking your advice first.
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Isa_Almisry
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Back in 1st grade they taught us “s” before “e,i”, “k” before “a,” “o.” Were you absent that day?‘C’ can be hard or soft in English. Do you pronounce ‘car’ as ‘sar’? ‘Catherine’ as ‘Satherine’? ‘Crabapple’ as ‘srabapple’? Gosh, talking to you could well be like getting stuck in a Monty Python sketch.
And as I stated, when you stop pronouncing “ph” like “f,” I might listen to your argument.And since this word originates from the time when these tribes existed, that should be a big clue as to how the word is to be pronounced.
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Isa_Almisry
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Someone I know at my old parish used to say “no one is safe from being Anglican.”
under the Vatican or in communion with the other ancient Sees of the Pentarchy?
I admire your integrity. If the Anglican communion had it, it might have a communion.
Original.
You mean called the Continuum.But you can’t speak for the future?
Which is what? I’d hope for something better.
No, St. Peter was quite Orthodox.
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Contarini
Guest
You’re straining the bolded passage way beyond a reasonable interpretation. Ignatius is talking about the need to submit to the authority of the bishop. He is not saying that all you need to have the Catholic Church is a bishop, whether or not that bishop is in communion with other valid bishops. He isn’t addressing that issue at all. No one here is disputing that a valid particular church exists wherever there is a bishop in apostolic succession. The question is whether the Catholic Church is fully and completely present wherever there is a bishop, no matter what that bishop’s relationship to other bishops may be. And I repeat: this is not what Ignatius is addressing.
No, I mean one particular theological school within Orthodoxy, originating in the 19th century (or at least revived in the 19th century–obviously you think the Fathers taught this) and more popular among the Russians than the Greeks (see Zizioulas’s criticisms of Eucharistic ecclesiology in Being as Communion).
The entire argument in *On the Unity of the Catholic Church. *Cyprian is arguing that there is one worldwide Church and that there can be no salvation apart from this Church. He is not arguing, as you seem to be, that all it takes to have the Church is one bishop in one place, no matter how isolated from other orthodox bishops that bishop may be. The unity of the episcopate is central to his argument, though chaps. 4-5 and 7 are particularly clear.
Well, now that makes two of us!
Edwin
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