A Challenge to Our Intelligence.

[Angelo_Michael]

Ben,
The title you gave , and the content of your argument on,] this thread reminds me of this scripture:

Matthew 11:
1: And it came to pass, when [Christ] had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
2: Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3: And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4: [Christ] answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5: The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6: And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
7: And as they departed, [Christ] began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8: But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings’ houses.
9: But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10: For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11: Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12: And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13: For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14: And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15: He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
16: But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17: And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18: For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19: The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
20: Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22: But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23: And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24: But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
25: At that time [Christ] answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26: Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27: All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29: Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30: For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[Matthew_Sharp]

Matthew_Sharp;5703366:

Ben Masada;5701790:

FatTire;5680271:

Quoting Ben Masada from a previous post of his:
Ben Masada;5710026:

What caused hundreds of Baha’is to walk to their death at the time of Aiatolla Chommeni? What causes Muslims to throw themselves to their death on behalf of Islam? Should I continue? The same spirit that compels all people moved by an ideal. What is it that’s so hard for you to understand?

We are going in circles with you. Baha’is and evangelist who go out and preach or stay true to their religion is based on faith. The point being made is what caused the drastic change in the apostles to make them become who they were and go out and preach and as everyone is trying to point out that something groundbreaking something earth shattering had to happen to their worlds to make them do what they did and that was the Resurrection. You really are thick headed, you avoid taking the topic head on. This same spirit that you use lock stock for every argument does not work in this case, so stop it. Also it’s Ayatollah Khomeini, learn to spell it, in your 20th time using that dead and weak example of Baha’is in Iran you butcher that name in 17 different ways. I feel sorry for your students.

Again! Do I have to repeat the above?

No, you need to quit bringing up the same dead weak arguement to try to explain the actions of the Apostles, from going to scared cowards who abandoned their master to being uplifted and risking their life preaching his message.

Wow! At least you accept one case! Josephus says that it was not uncommon for crucifieds to remain alive 3 or 4 days. Jesus was taken off his cross after only a few hours. That’s a very high percentage that he was alive.

High percentage? Really when modern medical and scientific research shows that wild birds and dogs usually began to tear at the bodies after a few hours and that most importantly that crucifixion was extremely lethal, if not within a few hours but for sure long term, within a week.

Not everyone reacts in the same manner. Your generalizations are based on preconceived Christian notions.

Preconceived Christian notions? No they are not! They are based on thorough research done last year. It’s clear that the nail blow through the feet would render the individual handicapped. Everyone reacts like that. It’s basic human biology, that blow is dangerously effective at paralyzing it’s victim. Why are you so thick headed?

I am not quoting myself but Luke. You don’t read the quotations I put down for the evidences of what I state here. Read Acts 1:1-3. If the “Christian already knows that Jesus
resurrected” where is this Christian hiding? I have been asking for an eyewitness to the resurrection and I can’t find this Christian that you claim knows that Jesus resurrected.

The Gospels are testimonies to the resurrection, but since they have been grouped together and put together as part of the NT, you deny them because you are Jewish, simple as that.

If you are not the one who posted about the National Geographic, why are you braking in to reply the post of another? Are you trying to tell me that the National Geographic has proved that Josephus was wrong? Nothing is absolute when dealing with humans.

I’m not breaking it, I’m asking you to reference it, that’s all. Just like everything else that is not Jewish you misconstrue it and attack it.

 

[Matthew_Sharp]

Anyone who makes use of ad hominem deserves no reply. You should know much better that ad hominem is forbidden in this forum.

Well done ignoring the rest of the post and arguments made against you just so you can reference something an old poster made.

Go back and address the real issues at hand, ok Benny?

 

[Angelo_Michael]

So what do you think about the fact that earlier Mesopotamian myths are so strikingly similar to stories in the Jewish bible? What about wild claims like those in the book of Numbers affirming the existence of unicorns?

If you want to talk about logic and reason, then great. Why isn’t there a shred of evidence affirming the claim that the Jewish people were enslaved in Egypt in any of the archeological or other historical Egyptian artifacts we’ve found (and we’ve discovered an immense array of information at this point that brings ancient Egyptian history alive).

So is your faith really reasonable? If it isn’t reasonable then how smart has it been for your people to base its entire ethnic heritage on mythological fabrications? Wow right

Also, I remember watching some other documentary on the Exodus and scientific explanations for it and I remember that it said something about the Red Sea had a neck that is now a resort area and that there is some theory that water can be parted by strong winds. They ended up showing that a hydroplane boat (those with the big fans) could separate waters by blowing upon them near the shore (an inclined plane) and this, in turn, would expose and dry land. Also, another difference of this documentary from the aforementioned is that the death of the Egyptian firstborn was attributed to mycotoxins in mold infested grains that the firstborn ate more of than the others (?? accuracy of memory questionable ??), rather than by asphyxiation by carbon dioxide. Or maybe this is info from 3 separate documentaries, I can’t quite remember.

Also, there is some Biblical qoute I’d like you to consider about how exacting the requirements of God can be and how, in my opinion, similarities with other religions doesn’t discredit the merit of Judaism.

Deuteronomy 13:
1: If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2: And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3: Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4: Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5: And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
6: If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7: Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8: Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10: And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11: And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
12: If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13: Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
14: Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
15: Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
16: And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
17: And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
18: When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

Also, you might like to consider the incidences of Baalam and Balak and any similarities that exist between them and others and their acceptance or rejection according to certain standards/criteria. The letter of Jude addresses them in the N.T. and their acts are related in the O.T. as well (Numbers 22-23 and also Nehemiah 13).

 

[yankee_doodle]

Also, I remember watching some other documentary on the Exodus and scientific explanations for it and I remember that it said something about the Red Sea had a neck that is now a resort area and that there is some theory that water can be parted by strong winds. They ended up showing that a hydroplane boat (those with the big fans) could separate waters by blowing upon them near the shore (an inclined plane) and this, in turn, would expose and dry land. Also, another difference of this documentary from the aforementioned is that the death of the Egyptian firstborn was attributed to mycotoxins in mold infested grains that the firstborn ate more of than the others (?? accuracy of memory questionable ??), rather than by asphyxiation by carbon dioxide. Or maybe this is info from 3 separate documentaries, I can’t quite remember.

well yeah of course (there’s been a bunch of attempts to figure out how the red sea could have been split). But this is obviously different than asking whether the supernatural events in the bible (or some of its historical claims) ever actually happened in the first place.

Also, there is some Biblical qoute I’d like you to consider about how exacting the requirements of God can be and how, in my opinion, similarities with other religions doesn’t discredit the merit of Judaism.

In my view these are merely the words of its human author, and it’s nonsensical to accept a theory that the bible validates itself by it’s own logic or standards?

Also, you might like to consider the incidences of Baalam and Balak and any similarities that exist between them and others and their acceptance or rejection according to certain standards/criteria. The letter of Jude addresses them in the N.T. and their acts are related in the O.T. as well (Numbers 22-23 and also Nehemiah 13).

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, which of course doesn’t exist with regards to the bible. Asking me to consider a theory that the bible validates itself (and overcomes its many problems through self-validation, including its similarities to numerous other ancient myths) just doesn’t cut the mustard … IMO anyway (and empirically speaking it’s just not a probative fact).

 

[Angelo_Michael]

well yeah of course (there’s been a bunch of attempts to figure out how the red sea could have been split). But this is obviously different than asking whether the supernatural events in the bible (or some of its historical claims) ever actually happened in the first place.

In my view these are merely the words of its human author, and it’s nonsensical to accept a theory that the bible validates itself by it’s own logic or standards?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, which of course doesn’t exist with regards to the bible. Asking me to consider a theory that the bible validates itself (and overcomes its many problems through self-validation, including its similarities to numerous other ancient myths) just doesn’t cut the mustard … IMO anyway (and empirically speaking it’s just not a probative fact).

**I think I might have got you mixed up with Sharp (who said that he was new to Christianity) at one point in this thread. You’re a bit more hardened against faith than I anticipated. I guess the problem I have with your demand for proof is you don’t seem to understand or acknowledge that it might require the loss of life – or that it already has – to provide it. So, whereas some people believe without “proof”, you are essentially asking me to provide [more of] it; and this, in turn, reminds me of all the people that have died recently and how they don’t satisfy your ‘need’ for proof. I guess your whole focus is off, in my opinion. You are asking for proof that God exists in order to recognize, honor, or obey God; but, from my perspective, one is obligated to do such things whether proof exists [satisfactory to their criteria] or not.

The only other insight I have for you is that Christ says that leading into “all truth” is to be performed later, after his death and resurrection, by some other entity than either He or Moses.**

John 16:
12: I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14: He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

**Also, if you are so unhappy with Biblical genealogy maybe you might like to consider the notion that, since Moses is a prophet, that the account of creation might also have a future context as well as a historical one. Do you know that when Christ talks about the death of Lazarus [et. al.], His friend, that He refers to death as sleep? **

John 11:
9: [Christ] answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
10: But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.
11: These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12: Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13: Howbeit [Christ] spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14: Then said [Christ] unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

And that, in a creation account, the Lord brought upon Adam a deep sleep before creating, or giving, a wife for/to him.

Genesis 2:
21: And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22: And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Albeit, in the resurrection, the relationship is different.

Matthew 22:
23: The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24: Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25: Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27: And last of all the woman died also.
28: Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29: Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30: For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31: But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33: And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Yet, perhaps the creation account can be taken as symbolic of, or imbuing, the resurrection.

 

[Lapell]

According to the old testament unicorns really existed

Sounds like an awesome animal to ride into battle (that is if your an ancient guy with no tank). Horn on his head, but otherwise agile like a horse. I think they fly too

I think you got it not from the Bible, but from an Irish song called “The Unicorn”.
It sure told of Noah and of his ark, but the part about the unicorn I challenge you to find it in the story of Noah (Gen. chapters 6, 7 and 8). Good luck…

 

[Lapell]

**Wow! At least you accept one case! Josephus says that it was not uncommon for crucifieds to remain alive 3 or 4 days. Jesus was taken off his cross after only a few hours. That’s a very high percentage that he was alive. **

** Lapell: Whatever, my friend! Were the other crucified also scourged as much as Jesus was. Or did they too wear a helmet, or crown, of thorns on their heads? Were they also nailed? Anyhow, they had to break the legs of the ones crucified on both sides, but when they came to Jesus they did not need to, for he already was dead then. They all are treated badly, but to the same extent as Jesus was? Those gone to the same extent, how many of them would last 3 or 4 days? This was not the Olympics, though!**

Not everyone reacts in the same manner. Your generalizations are based on preconceived Christian notions.

And yours apparently are based on preconceived Jewish notions…

 

[yankee_doodle]

I think you got it not from the Bible, but from an Irish song called “The Unicorn”.
It sure told of Noah and of his ark, but the part about the unicorn I challenge you to find it in the story of Noah (Gen. chapters 6, 7 and 8). Good luck…

It’s not in Genesis, it’s Job 39:8-12, Numbers 23:22, and 24:8 (although some bibles translate the term as wild ox, it used to be translated as “unicorn” … for instance the KJV still uses the term “unicorn”).

The original Hebrew is: ראם, translated it’s rĕ’em, and in English “unicorns”

Here’s the definition:

probably the great aurochs or wild bulls which are now extinct. The exact meaning is not known.

Oh yeah … now exitenct

 

[yankee_doodle]

I think I might have got you mixed up with Sharp (who said that he was new to Christianity) at one point in this thread. You’re a bit more hardened against faith than I anticipated.

I take that to mean I’m not as dumb as you anticipated

I guess the problem I have with your demand for proof is you don’t seem to understand or acknowledge that it might require the loss of life – or that it already has – to provide it. So, whereas some people believe without “proof”, you are essentially asking me to provide [more of] it; and this, in turn, reminds me of all the people that have died recently and how they don’t satisfy your ‘need’ for proof. I guess your whole focus is off, in my opinion. You are asking for proof that God exists in order to recognize, honor, or obey God; but, from my perspective, one is obligated to do such things whether proof exists [satisfactory to their criteria] or not.

huh?

The only other insight I have for you is that Christ says that leading into “all truth” is to be performed later, after his death and resurrection, by some other entity than either He or Moses.

save the bible thumping … a book cannot validate itself without referring to extrinsic evidence (that really exists).

 

[yankee_doodle]

I noticed I misspelled extinct above (in post# 188) … the only flaw you people will find in any of my arguments

 

[Angelo_Michael]

I take that to mean I’m not as dumb as you anticipated

huh?

save the bible thumping … a book cannot validate itself without referring to extrinsic evidence (that really exists).

Well, to me, faith is different than intelligence; and that is what I’ve tried to describe in other posts here by quoting certain scriptures. Another example of faith and reason is Einstein’s rejection of quantum mechanics and pursuit of the “theory of everything.” Einstein worked diligently to accomplish his goal while many others wrote him off as impudent and washed-up. He died without accomplishing that goal and one of his final theories released was admittedly flawed. But he tried and would not be discouraged and that is what his intelligence/faith/works tell(s) us, “Keep trying, even if you fail and are mocked,… keep trying.” The fact that he accomplished so much in his lifetime that impacts the modern view of “reality” implores us to, not only respect his efforts, but also consider that his perseverance may have been a quality that enabled his success. Today, string theory is generally considered the most closely related theory to the “theory of everything”, but it also incorporates certain aspects from quantum mechanics. I wonder, what is your view of Einstein’s efforts? Intelligent, faithful (i.e. inspired by faith), or dumb/stupid/etc.?

Also, another question I have is if you [and/or Ben] also discredit, with equal abandon [as for God and/or the resurrection of Christ], the findings associated with the Gospel of Judas?

P.S: Perhaps the main point that I am making with my correlation above is that, in my opinion, the lessons we learn from Einstein’s perseverance – irrespective of the content of the work produced thereby – is, in at least some ways, equally important to (if not moreso), and complementary for, any other idea, theory, or concept he promoted.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Well, to me, faith is different than intelligence; and that is what I’ve tried to describe in other posts here by qouting certain scriptures. Another example of faith and reason is Einstein’s rejection of quantum mechanics and pursuit of the “theory of everything.” Einstein worked diligently to accomplish his goal while many others wrote him off as impudent and washed-up. He died without accomplishing that goal and one of his final theories released was admittedly flawed. But he tried and would not be discouraged and that is what his intelligence tells us, “keep trying, even if you fail and are mocked,… keep trying.” The fact that he accomplished so much in his lifetime that impacts the modern view of “reality” implores us to, not only respect his efforts, but also consider that his perserverance may have been a quality that enabled his success. Today, string theory is generally considered the most closely related theory to the “theory of everything”, but it also incorporates certain aspects from quantum mechanics. I wonder, what is your view of Einstein’s efforts? Intelligent, faithful (i.e. inspired by faith), or dumb/stupid/etc.?

Also, another question I have is if you [and/or Ben] also discredit, with equal abandon, the findings associated with the Gospel of Judas [as you do God and/ or the resurrection of Christ]?

I’m not sure I buy your analogy, but Einstein did also create general & special relativity (and while he did reject quantum mechanics, it was mostly due to his objection to quantum entanglement, and he was right to say quantum mechanics is not a complete theory).

I don’t think I mentioned the Gospel of Judas at all? But you can probably guess what I’ll think of any supernatural claims it makes.

 

[Angelo_Michael]

…]

In my view these are merely the words of its human author, and it’s nonsensical to accept a theory that the bible validates itself by it’s own logic or standards?

…]

**My main concern for your remarks is that the implications are far reaching, and if you are suggesting to a Jew, and thru him to all Jews, that [their] God is not real; then it is my opinion that you are, not only being disrespectful to any Jew [and/or Christian, et. al.,] living, but also to the memory of any Jew [and/or Christian, et. al.,] that has been murdered or is otherwise deceased.

Furthermore, I would like to bring to your attention some of the teachings of [some forms of] Judaism:**

Ezekiel 20:
1: And it came to pass in the seventh year, in the fifth month, the tenth day of the month, that certain of the elders of Israel came to inquire of the LORD, and sat before me.
2: Then came the word of the LORD unto me, saying,
3: Son of man, speak unto the elders of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye come to inquire of me? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be inquired of by you.
4: Wilt thou judge them, son of man, wilt thou judge them? cause them to know the abominations of their fathers:
5: And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up mine hand unto them, saying, I am the LORD your God;
6: In the day that I lifted up mine hand unto them, to bring them forth of the land of Egypt into a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands:
7: Then said I unto them, Cast ye away every man the abominations of his eyes, and defile not yourselves with the idols of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
8: But they rebelled against me, and would not hearken unto me: they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt: then I said, I will pour out my fury upon them to accomplish my anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.
9: But I wrought for my name’s sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, among whom they were, in whose sight I made myself known unto them, in bringing them forth out of the land of Egypt.
10: Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness.
11: And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.
12: Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
13: But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.
14: But I wrought for my name’s sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out.
15: Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands;
16: Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols.
17: Nevertheless mine eye spared them from destroying them, neither did I make an end of them in the wilderness.
18: But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols:
19: I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;
20: And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

(Continued…)

 

[Angelo_Michael]

(Continued from #193…)

[Ezekiel 20:]
21: Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.
22: Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name’s sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth.
23: I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries;
24: Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers’ idols.
25: Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
26: And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.
27: Therefore, son of man, speak unto the house of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed me, in that they have committed a trespass against me.
28: For when I had brought them into the land, for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to them, then they saw every high hill, and all the thick trees, and they offered there their sacrifices, and there they presented the provocation of their offering: there also they made their sweet savour, and poured out there their drink offerings.
29: Then I said unto them, What is the high place whereunto ye go? And the name thereof is called Bamah unto this day.
30: Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations?
31: For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be inquired of by you.
*32: And that which cometh into your mind shall not be at all, that ye say, We will be as the heathen, as the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone.
33: As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: *
34: And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35: And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36: Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
37: And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38: And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
39: As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.
40: For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.
41: I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
42: And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.
43: And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.
44: And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name’s sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
45: Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
46: Son of man, set thy face toward the south, and drop thy word toward the south, and prophesy against the forest of the south field;
47: And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.
48: And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.
49: Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?

And so, along with your persistent denial of God and your insistence that you are right; you should, in my opinion, also acknowledge how your views could threaten the security of Jews who might adopt it – (because the relationship between you and God, and them and God, may not be the same) – even if you don’t believe in God yourself.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I know that. Actually, remember that I never implied I could

 

[Ben_Masada]

This was a totally unnecessary jab, in context of the conversation, and based upon poor knowledge or a deliberate refusal to demonstrate knowledge of the difference between Catholic statues and ancient pagan idols. For Catholics, statues serve a function very much like pictures. Pictures remind one of a loved one, and one might look at a picture of a loved one to call them more fully to mind. Some people might even affectionately kiss a picture of a loved one who is separated from them by time or death, just to express how much they care. But by no means do they believe the loved one is the picture, nor that being near the picture actually makes them any physically closer to them; they do not believe the picture is a living incarnation of the one they love. It is simply something that might help one focus one’s thoughts in calling a loved one to mind, gives them something to look at and cathartically release their emotions by. While no one would argue that statues always accurately depict the saints and such, they serve to call them to mind like a picture. Unless cherishing a picture of a loved one is idolatry, neither is iconography or statues as used by Catholics.

You are going to have to forgive me for this one, but I can’t help thinking of your whole explanation above about the veneration of statues in the Catholic Church as an absolute cop-out.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Replies:

1. From what I understand, the Gospel of John and letters of John were either written by him or some of his followers or students and contains – unlike many of the writings of Paul, (who is not the first Pope; that is Peter) – an admonition to follow the commandments of Christ [as He is Prophet, “like unto Moses.”]

 

[Ben_Masada]

So what do you think about the fact that earlier Mesopotamian myths are so strikingly similar to stories in the Jewish bible? What about wild claims like those in the book of Numbers affirming the existence of unicorns?

If you want to talk about logic and reason, then great. Why isn’t there a shred of evidence affirming the claim that the Jewish people were enslaved in Egypt in any of the archeological or other historical Egyptian artifacts we’ve found (and we’ve discovered an immense array of information at this point that brings ancient Egyptian history alive).

So is your faith really reasonable? If it isn’t reasonable then how smart has it been for your people to base its entire ethnic heritage on mythological fabrications? Wow right

What does anything you have said above have to do with Jewish Monotheism versus Christian Polytheism? If you don’t have an answer for the reason why the front door of your house is broken, why question the trash cans of your neighbour? Let us fix your front door
first, then we will see about my trash cans. I think that to find a explanation for the lack of Monotheism in Christianity is more important that a little dirty of folklore beliefs found in the cans of Judaism.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Hadi is Muslim. Hadi is on the other side of your wall with the Palestinians whom your people seclude from living a normal life. You are out there in the wilderness.

The “Palestinians” are secluded from living a normal life not by us but by their own brothers, their Arabic neighbours, who in 1948 pressed on them to leave Israel and return only after they pushed us into the sea. Their fiasco backfired in a way that even up to this very day, they are still punishing their own brothers in the hope that the Westerners are as stupid as they are and turn on Israel. So, don’t blame us for their stupidity and lack of brains. I mean those who made war on us and have lost several times.