A Challenge to Our Intelligence.

[Matthew_Sharp]

Also Ben, do a search on what myrrh and aloes, the so-called “medicine” you claim that Nicodemus brought, what there uses are for.

Myrrh was used for embalming or anointing of the dead. As for medicinal purposes it was used to clean wounds, but mainly to treat bad breath, sore throats, and gum disease, its still used in toothpaste and mouthwash today.

As for aloes, better known as aloe vera, it’s used for: blisters, insect bites, rashes, sores, herpes, urticaria, athlete’s foot, fungus, vaginal infections, conjunctivitis, sties, allergic reactions, and dry skin.

I hardly believe that even a million pounds of this stuff would have done Jesus any good.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Contradiction? Hardly. If–and I know it is hard for you to set your bias aside long enough to consider that “if”–but if Jesus was in fact God incarnate, then He had the authority to radically reinterpret the Law without abolishing it.

 

[KindredSoul]

Good! Now, show me in the Scriptures that Jesus used to handle, the quotation that
“Jesus was in fact God incarnate.” You can’t; and do you know why? Because Judaism never goes together with Greek Mythology.

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” That’s as much scripture as “In the beginning, when God made the Heavens and the Earth…” Of course, you only consider the OT to be scripture…even so, show me where the OT Scriptures say that “There will be a man called Jesus, and He will not be God incarnate.” You can’t; you know why? Because Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism.

Of course I do not believe the line of reasoning I have just used proves Christianity, but I use this reasoning to show a point: The above is the kind of reasoning you have been using. Do you not see how your reasoning works both ways, if we accept it as valid?

Your own NT says that Jesus came to confirm the laws down to the letter, even to the dot of the letter. It doesn’t help for you to rewrite the text. You only build more and more contradictions in the NT. (Mat. 5:18,19)

I didn’t rewrite the text, I showed you scriptural evidence–from the scriptures you reject, but which speak of Jesus by name and offer a source of what He taught–which suggests that what Jesus meant by fulfill (quite a bit different than “confirm”) was quite possibly, and quite justifiably, different than what you or His contemporaries would think that means. No rewriting required, only observation of the New Testament in its full context, without approaching it with the bias of already thinking “It must be false,” before even giving it a chance.

I have not proven that Jesus was not divine! What are you talking about? Read Isaiah 44:24 and 46:5. There are many more proofs in the Scriptures that Jesus was not divine. But I believe if you are not too blind, those two quotations will do it.

“Thus says the Lord, your redeemer, who formed you from the womb: I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens; when I spread out the earth, who was with me?”

“Whom would you compare me with, as an equal, or match me against, as though we were alike?”

Yes, indeed, those scriptures would prove something if we believed Jesus was a god, as in a rival god, something “other than” the Lord God of Israel. However, that is not what we believe…we believe that God, the one true and only God, is Triune; the “I AM” is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who are One, and spoke as One in the scriptures you cite. Indeed, there is no other “god” who was with God, nor any other “god” who can compare. But since Jesus is not an alternate God but is fully One with the Father and Holy Spirit, He does not constitute an “other-than-God” who was “with me” “when I spread out the earth,” nor an “other-than-God” with whom to “compare me”…instead, Jesus actually is the “me” in those scriptures you quote, as a result of His absolute Oneness with the Father. You do not believe this, and I know and respect that you do not…but your scriptures, which we share, do nothing to refute the belief if the belief is properly understood.

CONTINUED…

 

[KindredSoul]

…CONTINUED (From Above)

Jesus was a Jew and not a Greek demigod. And he was married or contradicted Matthew 5:18,19. Besides, when you deny that he did not fulfill the commandment to get married and produce children, you are calling him a liar.

First, Jesus was a Jew, God incarnate, and not a Greek demigod. You have said one thing truly: Indeed, He was not a Greek demigod–unless the God and creator of all was a Greek demigod, which He is clearly not. You see, only if we accept your bias are we required to believe that “God incarnate” is the same as “Greek demigod.” We do not accept your premise, nor is there any reason to believe we must if we are to maintain rationality.

Second, you say Jesus was married, and give no proof–for the umpteenth time, speculation of a nature that no one even mentioned until hundreds of years later is not proof. If you say He was married, show me an early source that plainly and directly says so instead of speculating “Oh that was Jewish Law, so it must have been true.” And then, should such a source exist, defying all our expectations, show me why that source is better than the sources that imply otherwise, including the New Testament.

Third, you refuse to admit that Jesus, by not being married, was not actually violating the Law in any way, as it does not require every Jew to be married.

Fourth, I am suspicious that, without wrenching the first chapter of Genesis out of context, which included a command specifically to the first humans, you have absolutely no scripture which backs up your claim that a man who doesn’t get married is somehow violating the Law.

Now, you have just told me that you know close to zero of your own NT. Okay, if you want a Jew, who has no obligation to know your bible, to teach you what is written in it, read John 19:39 if you know how. If you don’t, let me know and I will translate it for you.

You mean “myrrh and aloes weighing about one hundred pounds”? Burial ointments are supposed to convince me? Unless you believe Myrrh and aloe, whether one pound or a hundred, constitutes some miracle medicine, I do not see how you think this proves anything. And please, do not assume what I do and do not know about the NT, or any other aspect of my own religion. You’ll be proven wrong, as I have read it numerous times and have been formally schooled in it. Also it’s just rude of you. If you answer this with further rudeness, I hope you know it will only show you as even more rude.

Show me an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus and we are in business. If you can’t, ask for help. If none can help you give up and stop letting pride speak louder than commonsense. To have seen Jesus alive after his crucifixion is no proof that he even died, let alone that he resurrected. You know that what I say makes sense but your stubborness is without limit.

Show me an eyewitness (who actually said) that Jesus never in fact died. Show me an eyewitness that the men who said He died and rose again, the Apostles, never actually said so and opposed Paul when he said so. And if you cannot show me that, explain to me why those men, who would have known if Jesus hadn’t risen from the dead, were willing to die for what they would have known was a lie? To have not seen Jesus actually in the act of rising from the dead is no proof that He did not do so, especially given the testimony–the validity of which you have still not soundly refuted–of the Apostles who would have known if He was lying and who, let us be honest, would not then have been willing to be martyred for believing in Him.

Yes, it can be so rational that almost a thousand of the faithful of Jim Jones were murdered for their faith. If they had been a little rational they could have been saved.

Did I say faith is always rational? I said it can be, and your twisting of my words so that you may beat up a straw man caricature of them suggests a lack of sincerity or intellectual honesty. More rudeness.

**There is an enormous difference between faith and hope. Judaism is a religion of hope and Reason. If the faith of the faithful proves a failure, the faithful has only himself to blame for it. His faith was not good enough. If the hoped-for fails the hopeful, this is not to blame, for he can hope again. **

Faith, in the nature as we are using it here, is believing in something without its being proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. So again, does not your religion require faith, or do you believe your religion is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, so as to imply that anyone–Christian or not–who doesn’t believe in your religion is stupid and unable to see the obvious truth that Judaism alone has?

---

At the core of this debate is the fact that you seem unwilling to admit or cope with the fact that people disagree with you, and even the possibility that there is nothing irrational about them doing so seems to bother you, hence your undying need to “disprove” Christianity. You have a desire, a need, to prove that the beliefs of those who disagree with you are wrong or else you, who deny any place to faith in affirming a belief, have no secure basis for believing what you believe. You pretend that religion should be like physics, provable and 100% undeniable…but beliefs, whether religion or atheism, are never that way. Your own beliefs are no exception.

In the process of this you have taken to being rude and obnoxious; you pretend to be so sure that Christianity is a hoax and a lie, that you imagine that you have a right to insult Christians’ intelligence however you please, as even the title of this thread demonstrates…if you were as sure as you say, at least intellectually speaking, you would not have the aching preoccupation with making Christians, whose conversion you are not after and whose belief in Christianity you probably know you will not shake, see the “error of their ways.” One secure in his beliefs never tries to convince others for the simple sake of convincing…if evangelization is not the motive, desperation often tends to be. Doubly evident when the would-be convincer feels the need to be rude about it.

Unless you wish us to convert to Judaism, I suggest that you cease this meaningless assault. You will never disprove Christianity, because it cannot be dis-proven. It is true that this alone wouldn’t make it true, but it does mean that no one can smugly say “It is false and it is an insult to our intelligence.” So please, give up trying to do so, particularly if, as according to you, you have no real stake in it.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

 

[adrift]

Lapell;5681372:

There was no spear-piercing at Jesus’ side. It was not a Roman custom to do that.

On the contrary the Romans did do this. From The history and pathology of crucifixion.

Death was often hastened. "The attending Roman guards could only leave the site after the victim had died, and were known to precipitate death by means of deliberate fracturing of the tibia and/or fibula, spear stab wounds into the heart

, sharp blows to the front of the chest, or a smoking fire built at the foot of the cross to asphyxiate the victim

Josephus says that the Romans crucified thousands of Jews. There is not a single report in the writings of Josephus that they ever spear-pierced a crucified. John plagiarized it from Zechariah 12:10 with the purpose to score a prophecy to enhance Jesus’ credibility as the one.

I have searched his writings and have not found a single description of a crucifixion. He doesn’t mention the practice of breaking of the legs either.

A second reason is that before the alleged piercing, the Centurion and his corhots had acknowledged that Jesus was indeed the son of God. There is no logic to claim that they would still spear-pierce him. (Mat. 27:54)

I do not see that the piercing came after this acknowledgment. This is just your unfounded assumption.

The third reason is that the Centurion might have been generously bribed by Joseph of Arimathea to just allow him to take Jesus off the cross and report back to Pilate that everything was all right and that Jesus was dead. At least, there is precedence for this bribe in Matthew 28:12.

The bribe mentioned in Matt is to soldiers and it is not clear if they were soldiers are guards hired by the Jews. At any rate, they were not performing official Roman business so it would not be as serious as shirking official business. Your proof of Matt goes flat when it is realized that if they had let Jesus go they would be killed. There would be no smoothing it over as was the case in Matt. The biggest flaw in your argument is the “might have” with that anything might have happened what is needed is evidence and that is against Jesus surviving.

 

[yankee_doodle]

A Challenge to Our Intelligence

That’s about another puzzle that has been insulting our intelligence for 2000 years: The Roman guards who were asked of Pilate to watch the tomb for three days.(Mat. 27:64

perhaps. Although I think noting the similarities between the Egyptian myth of Horus and the Jesus narrative is probably an easier way to accomplish your goal. However, that begs the obvious comparisons between Sumerian, greater Mesopotamian, Arabian, and Egyptian mythologies and Judaism. IMO the similarities are just as striking, and present problems for all Abrahamic faiths.

I have a theory regarding this. I think it’s logical to assume that Judaism is an offshoot of earlier Sumerian mythology. The evidence is convincing enough (since we know enough about earlier Sumerian mythology to understand the similarities, and the logical implications are obvious enough). However, we obviously don’t know many of the particulars, but we can make reasoned speculation.

The Jewish people, according to its own bible, began in the land of Ur (greater Mesopotamian civilization, also where Sumer was located, in what is today Southern Iraq). Today’s Jewish people may have began as a religious cult who originated in the greater Mesopotamian world, but left that civilization for unknown reasons (perhaps their cult faced problems with mainstream Sumerian society, much as we see with small religious cults today, although all we can do is guess). Having left they became a nomadic group (eventually settling down & acclimating to desert life, raising crops, rearing children, forming villages, etc.). Generations go by, and because their religious myths were handed down between generations by oral transmission, the stories became altered (as stories relayed by oral transmission between many different people always do).

Having established a separate identity, the Hebrew language slowly emerged, becoming distinct from its earlier roots (shared with other Semitic peoples), the religious system that evolved naturally placed their tribe as the central figures in the narrative. However, at some point monotheism became the primary distinguishing characteristic between these different Semitic systems. Perhaps this occurred at the outset; or much later (as the religion became more remote in time and diluted from its original form).

We also see similarities between Judaism and Egyptian mythology (primarily in its worship practices and festivals). Evidence of permanent settlements in Jerusalem date back to the Bronze Age (about 5,000 years ago). However, tribes who developed cultures occupied Egypt about 2,500 years prior to any significant settlement in Jerusalem; and Mesopotamia was occupied beginning at roughly the same time period. As we understand more about these ancient cultures, and we find new archeological evidence, the prehistoric roots of today’s Abrahamic faiths are coming alive for us.

What I love about our emerging understanding of this history is the shared roots of everyone. It’s much like what we’re discovering about our genetic history and the migration patterns of prehistoric man. Once we evolved in almost what we are today, migration shaped the balance of our evolution. Biological organisms are adaptive, and sometimes evolve as a defensive measure (in response to environmental factors). Yet, this doesn’t detract from our shared heritage.

 

[Angelo_Michael]

Do you also not acknowledge the resurrections performed by/thru Elijah and Elisha? Moreover, for both of these occurrences women were present and could have given testimony about the matter.

1 Kings 17:
17: And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
18: And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
19: And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
20: And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
21: And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child’s soul come into him again.
22: And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
23: And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
24: And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

2 Kings 4:
8: And it fell on a day, that Elisha passed to Shunem, where was a great woman; and she constrained him to eat bread. And so it was, that as oft as he passed by, he turned in thither to eat bread.
9: And she said unto her husband, Behold now, I perceive that this is an holy man of God, which passeth by us continually.
10: Let us make a little chamber, I pray thee, on the wall; and let us set for him there a bed, and a table, and a stool, and a candlestick: and it shall be, when he cometh to us, that he shall turn in thither.
11: And it fell on a day, that he came thither, and he turned into the chamber, and lay there.
12: And he said to Gehazi his servant, Call this Shunammite. And when he had called her, she stood before him.
13: And he said unto him, Say now unto her, Behold, thou hast been careful for us with all this care; what is to be done for thee? wouldest thou be spoken for to the king, or to the captain of the host? And she answered, I dwell among mine own people.
14: And he said, What then is to be done for her? And Gehazi answered, Verily she hath no child, and her husband is old.
15: And he said, Call her. And when he had called her, she stood in the door.
16: And he said, About this season, according to the time of life, thou shalt embrace a son. And she said, Nay, my lord, thou man of God, do not lie unto thine handmaid.
17: And the woman conceived, and bare a son at that season that Elisha had said unto her, according to the time of life.
18: And when the child was grown, it fell on a day, that he went out to his father to the reapers.
19: And he said unto his father, My head, my head. And he said to a lad, Carry him to his mother.
20: And when he had taken him, and brought him to his mother, he sat on her knees till noon, and then died.
21: And she went up, and laid him on the bed of the man of God, and shut the door upon him, and went out.
22: And she called unto her husband, and said, Send me, I pray thee, one of the young men, and one of the asses, that I may run to the man of God, and come again.
23: And he said, Wherefore wilt thou go to him to day? it is neither new moon, nor sabbath. And she said, It shall be well.
24: Then she saddled an ***, and said to her servant, Drive, and go forward; slack not thy riding for me, except I bid thee.
25: So she went and came unto the man of God to mount Carmel. And it came to pass, when the man of God saw her afar off, that he said to Gehazi his servant, Behold, yonder is that Shunammite:
26: Run now, I pray thee, to meet her, and say unto her, Is it well with thee? is it well with thy husband? is it well with the child? And she answered, It is well.
27: And when she came to the man of God to the hill, she caught him by the feet: but Gehazi came near to thrust her away. And the man of God said, Let her alone; for her soul is vexed within her: and the LORD hath hid it from me, and hath not told me.
28: Then she said, Did I desire a son of my lord? did I not say, Do not deceive me?
29: Then he said to Gehazi, Gird up thy loins, and take my staff in thine hand, and go thy way: if thou meet any man, salute him not; and if any salute thee, answer him not again: and lay my staff upon the face of the child.
30: And the mother of the child said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And he arose, and followed her.
31: And Gehazi passed on before them, and laid the staff upon the face of the child; but there was neither voice, nor hearing. Wherefore he went again to meet him, and told him, saying, The child is not awaked.
32: And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed.
33: He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD.
34: And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.
35: Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
36: And he called Gehazi, and said, Call this Shunammite. So he called her. And when she was come in unto him, he said, Take up thy son.
37: Then she went in, and fell at his feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out.

Also, consider how Gehazi was unfaithful in monetary matters, (2 Kings 5), and, in this sense, is like a proto-type of Judas Iscariot (i.e., the unfaithful and rebellious disciple).

 

[Angelo_Michael]

About the Sabbath, Matthew 12 records Christ as saying:

1: At that time [Christ] went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
2: But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3: But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4: How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
*5: Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? *
6: But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7: But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
*8: For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. *
9: And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
10: And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
*11: And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12: How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. *
13: Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.
14: Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
15: But when [Christ] knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
16: And charged them that they should not make him known:
17: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18: Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
19: He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
20: A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21: And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

About “challenging intelligence” Isaiah relates:

Isaiah 28:
9: Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10: For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12: To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13: But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14: Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15: Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17: Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18: And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19: From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20: For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
21: For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
22: Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

and:

Isaiah 55:
1: Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2: Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3: Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
4: Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
5: Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
6: Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8: For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10: For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
12: For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
13: Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.

 

[Angelo_Michael]

I recommend considering this scripture as well:

Luke 16:
1: And [Christ] said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
2: And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.
3: Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
4: I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
5: So he called every one of his lord’s debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?
6: And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
7: Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.
8: And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
9: And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
10: He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
11: If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
12: And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man’s, who shall give you that which is your own?
13: No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
14: And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15: And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16: The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17: And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
18: Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
19: There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21: And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23: And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24: And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25: But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26: And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27: Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29: Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30: And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
*31: And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. *

 

[humblelurker]

If you use knowledge and research, you will be doing much better than wasting your time trying to appeal to my emotions. The road to my soul is not through my heart but through my mind.

You either missed the point, or you just proved my point. When God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, Pharaoh would not listen, reason or not. It is clearly a waste of time to communicate with you, but I will keep you in my prayers.
God Bless.

 

[Lapell]

Was that a case of life and death? Do you happen to know what is a case of life and death? That’s when a life can be saved. You claim that Jesus was dead; so, there was no life to be saved.

And what about the lives of the Jewish people? I think the Jewish religious authorities were seeing the rise of Jesus as a threat for all Jews because the Romans would come and intervene on a great scale, and so they might have searched to avoid a large-scale massacre, and now they thought they had to act quickly… might it not have been the case then? Or at least look like it was the case?

 

[Lapell]

**KS, you can never prove rationality in a religion whose blood in the veins is moved only by faith. Faith is the opposite of rationality. I have studied Psychology of religions. **

Lapell: I thought God revealed Himself to the Israelites. Hence It IS a Faith. In Christianity the Revelation went further. Yet both faiths don’t exclude at all reason within them, do they?

There were no Christians before Paul. Read Acts 11:26.It was in Antioch that Christianity started because Paul had spent a whole year preaching about Jesus as Christ. So, there was no such a thing as Christians coexisting with local Jews in Jerusalem.

Then, provided that what you say here is true, there were no Jews until some people called you Jews and you competed with with your opponents the Israelites and the Jews even stole the Scriptures from them!

 

[Lapell]

There was a graveyard in Jerusalem, didn’t you know? Nobody can be buried outside the graveyard duh!

I guess Joseph of Arimathea could bury somebody in his own property since it’s what he did? I don’t think the graveyard was installed so close to the place the crucifixions were done since the Romans were there AFTER the Jews had been already there, huh?

 

[Lapell]

There was a graveyard in Jerusalem, didn’t you know? Nobody can be buried outside the graveyard duh!

I think you mentioned that Joseph of Arimathea was quite well-off, didn’t you? And some notables certainly had the privilege of choosing to have a place of burial in their own properties, had they not?

 

[Lapell]

Daytime. (Mat. 27:62)

Are you sure? It reads: “The next day, which was the day of worship”, so it seems to refer to its being the 7th day rather than its being during daytime…

 

[Lapell]

Matthew the Apostle never wrote that stuff. The guy who wrote about that, probably, was never in Israel even for a visit. The gospel writers wrote half from hearsay and half from fabrication.

There still were Jews believing that Jesus was the Messiah, Ben. As for the Gospel writers writing half from hearsay, and half from fabrication, where do you take that? It can’t be just from the Gospels themselves, from from the rest of the NT. And it can’t be only from the TaNaKH either, since the last book was written even before Jesus of Nazareth came into the world. And you have told us that you go by Scriptures alone. But indeed to affirm a thing like this you must have had it from another source whom you believe is reliable… or you have used H.G. Wells’ Time Machine! (which I would be surprised you did!)

 

[Lapell]

If you use knowledge and research, you will be doing much better than wasting your time trying to appeal to my emotions. The road to my soul is not through my heart but through my mind.

So you have reason, but no faith in God? This because the two according to you are opposed and not complementary?

 

[Lapell]

Are you following the Scriptures without your heart being involved in this? Are you following them against your heart?

 

[Lapell]

Now yes, you said all in one word: Faith. It is indeed impossible to refute faith. Faith is synonymous with lack of knowledge. But for lack of knowledge People perish. (Hosea 4:6)

Sure, Ben. Moses had no confidence (faith) in God when came the time to make the Jewish people go across the sea on dry ground, that’s very clear indeed !!! And how many people do you personally know who don’t lack at least some knowledge? As Paul said: “He would thinks he is wise, or he who thinks he is “somebody” let him become foolish to acquire wisdom”…

 

[Lapell]

Yes, Jesus and the Apostles organized the Sect of the Nazarenes. And all the converts from the Gentiles would become Jewish and staunch defenders of the Law just like any other Jew. (Acts 21:20) The laws didn’t apply to the followers of Paul, whose custom was to rob the Nazarenes of their synagogues by overturning them into Christian churches. And all because he was unable to build a church from scratch.

How do you explain (other than by screaming: “It’s a lie!!”) that the attorney Tertullus, representing the Jewish Council in front the governor Felix, said at one point:“He’s a ringleader of the Nazarene sect” and that Paul never took the pain of refuting that point? Yet, the Acts of the Apostles were written by Paul’s companion in evangelization, Luke, so if he were to be found dissociate from the Nazarenes, there was the opportunity. Paul didn’t refute it!