A Church Divided

[OraLabora]

My wife recently pointed out this blog post from a Benedictine that struck my attention and I thought it would be good to post here given the sometimes acrimonious debates that happen on this forum. I think it’s a message we’d all do well to heed no matter what our views are.

ibenedictines.org/2015/06/28/a-church-divided/

Excerpt:

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Like Martha and Mary, Peter and Paul show us two aspects of what it means to be a disciple of Christ. Both are necessary; both express something of the unity of the Church. Why, then, have I become less and less convinced that many who call themselves Catholic have any interest in maintaining the unity of the Church? Could it be because of the hate-filled rhetoric that distorts much public discourse and the extraordinary (as it seems to me) position of those who believe everyone, from the pope down, to be in serious error if they happen not to believe the same things that they do on any given subject? Only this week I have had to ‘unfriend’ one person on Facebook for making gravely defamatory accusations against Pope Francis while at the same time having to defend myself privately for not thinking exactly as another does on the subject of ‘assisted dying’. To one I am a liberal spawned in hell, to the other a reactionary bound for the same destination. The idea that someone might (a) be sincere in her opinions and (b) have come to whatever conclusions she has after years of prayer and study (which are on-going) is, apparently, irrelevant. Many others have experienced the same. I hold no particular brief for Fr James Martin SJ, but I was dismayed to read on Facebook some of the criticisms he has received, not to mention the terms in which they were expressed. There is more here than mere disagreement. There is a fundamental disregard for the Church herself.

[More]

 

[cjforJesus]

My wife recently pointed out this blog post from a Benedictine that struck my attention and I thought it would be good to post here given the sometimes acrimonious debates that happen on this forum. I think it’s a message we’d all do well to heed no matter what our views are.

Thank you for this incredible post! I see the same thing all the time regarding petty arguments and such. A church divided cannot stand.

Mary said at Akita that it will be bishop against bishop and cardinal against cardinal as the demons themselves seek to attack the faithful,especially those in vocations. It seems like there is something within the Church(the smoke of satan) that is attacking from within.

Of course we know the gates of hell will not prevail and we must stand strong and TOGETHER.

ibenedictines.org/2015/06/28/a-church-divided/

Excerpt:

---

Like Martha and Mary, Peter and Paul show us two aspects of what it means to be a disciple of Christ. Both are necessary; both express something of the unity of the Church. Why, then, have I become less and less convinced that many who call themselves Catholic have any interest in maintaining the unity of the Church? Could it be because of the hate-filled rhetoric that distorts much public discourse and the extraordinary (as it seems to me) position of those who believe everyone, from the pope down, to be in serious error if they happen not to believe the same things that they do on any given subject? Only this week I have had to ‘unfriend’ one person on Facebook for making gravely defamatory accusations against Pope Francis while at the same time having to defend myself privately for not thinking exactly as another does on the subject of ‘assisted dying’. To one I am a liberal spawned in hell, to the other a reactionary bound for the same destination. The idea that someone might (a) be sincere in her opinions and (b) have come to whatever conclusions she has after years of prayer and study (which are on-going) is, apparently, irrelevant. Many others have experienced the same. I hold no particular brief for Fr James Martin SJ, but I was dismayed to read on Facebook some of the criticisms he has received, not to mention the terms in which they were expressed. There is more here than mere disagreement. There is a fundamental disregard for the Church herself.

[More]

 

[mh2007]

As periods of great change occur in history, there will be many opposing views regarding what is right, and debates over the proper course of action. As for the bishop vs. bishop thing, that appears to be a stretch.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I am an Anglican/Episcopalian in the US. Our Church has just concluded it’s General Convention, where I am sure you have heard, sacramental marriage adaptations were decided upon. There were long discussions before the decisions were made, amongst the House of Bishops as well as amongst clergy and laity.

One of the things I appreciate most about Anglicanism is that there is room for many thoughts, theologies, disciplines, and practices (truly the via media), yet we are united in Christ. There are hard things we must work through and we are doing that. There have also been schisms, also with hard feelings. But in the end, we are the Body of Christ. We listen to each other, support each other, learn from each other, and then come together around the Table.

 

[annem]

OraLabora

Why, then, have I become less and less convinced that many who call themselves Catholic have any interest in maintaining the unity of the Church? Could it be because of the hate-filled rhetoric that distorts much public discourse and the extraordinary (as it seems to me) position of those who believe everyone, from the pope down, to be in serious error if they happen not to believe the same things that they do on any given subject?

You speak of “maintaining the unity of the church”. With great love, the church offers her truth to everyone and bids everyone to join.

However, Catholics can never be unified to any kind of heresy. That’s the problem, that’s where the difficulty comes in.

The magisterium of the church has given us the great truths of our faith, a deposit of faith given to us by Jesus Christ himself. These dogmas cannot be changed. Not today. Not ever, however much a corrupt culture may want us to capitulate. So anyone who proclaims outright heresy can never be joined in any way to the church, although of course we must love and forgive those in great error.

God bless, Annem

 

[OraLabora]

OraLabora

You speak of “maintaining the unity of the church”. With great love, the church offers her truth to everyone and bids everyone to join.

However, Catholics can never be unified to any kind of heresy. That’s the problem, that’s where the difficulty comes in.

The magisterium of the church has given us the great truths of our faith, a deposit of faith given to us by Jesus Christ himself. These dogmas cannot be changed. Not today. Not ever, however much a corrupt culture may want us to capitulate. So anyone who proclaims outright heresy can never be joined in any way to the church, although of course we must love and forgive those in great error.

God bless, Annem

The words you quoted are not mine but are from the blog post I cited.

 

[edwest2]

OraLabora

You speak of “maintaining the unity of the church”. With great love, the church offers her truth to everyone and bids everyone to join.

However, Catholics can never be unified to any kind of heresy. That’s the problem, that’s where the difficulty comes in.

The magisterium of the church has given us the great truths of our faith, a deposit of faith given to us by Jesus Christ himself. These dogmas cannot be changed. Not today. Not ever, however much a corrupt culture may want us to capitulate. So anyone who proclaims outright heresy can never be joined in any way to the church, although of course we must love and forgive those in great error.

God bless, Annem

Amen.

Bishop Fulton Sheen:

"Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

"It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.

"The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth.

"It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.

"The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom.

"Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.

"Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment.

“Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.”

Ed

 

[annem]

OraLabora

The words you quoted are not mine but are from the blog post I cited.

Oh, of course, Perfectly clear once I went back and read it. Sorry, I was an idiot!
God bless, Annem

 

[floresco]

I am an Anglican/Episcopalian in the US. Our Church has just concluded it’s General Convention, where I am sure you have heard, sacramental marriage adaptations were decided upon. There were long discussions before the decisions were made, amongst the House of Bishops as well as amongst clergy and laity.

One of the things I appreciate most about Anglicanism is that there is room for many thoughts, theologies, disciplines, and practices (truly the via media), yet we are united in Christ. There are hard things we must work through and we are doing that. There have also been schisms, also with hard feelings. But in the end, we are the Body of Christ. We listen to each other, support each other, learn from each other, and then come together around the Table.

Thank you for this wonderful illustration of how making “room for many thoughts, theologies, disciplines, and practices” can be taken too far.

Some things, such as your example of same-sex marriage, can never have a place in the Catholic Church. Accepting such a thing is not about unity in Christ. On the other hand, we ought to make room for both trads and charismatics, for example

We need to discern what are the areas of legitimate disagreement and where we draw the line and say, “this is not and never can be Catholic.”

 

[OraLabora]

Thank you for this wonderful illustration of how making “room for many thoughts, theologies, disciplines, and practices” can be taken too far.

Some things, such as your example of same-sex marriage, can never have a place in the Catholic Church. Accepting such a thing is not about unity in Christ. On the other hand, we ought to make room for both trads and charismatics, for example

We need to discern what are the areas of legitimate disagreement and where we draw the line and say, “this is not and never can be Catholic.”

One of the huge appeals of Catholicism to me is just that, that there is room for many different legitimate spiritualities. I think the best examples come from the various religious orders, congregations and societies, as well as lay movements such as the KofC. This squares well with our varied talents and personalities.

There are many ways to legimately serve Christ, His Church and His people.

The issues arise when one sees his or her way as the only true way, which I think is the issue the sister was trying to flag.

 

[floresco]

One of the huge appeals of Catholicism to me is just that, that there is room for many different legitimate spiritualities. I think the best examples come from the various religious orders, congregations and societies, as well as lay movements such as the KofC. This squares well with our varied talents and personalities.

There are many ways to legimately serve Christ, His Church and His people.

The issues arise when one sees his or her way as the only true way, which I think is the issue the sister was trying to flag.

Some people seem to think that because some disagreements are legitimate then all disagreements are legitilmate. This is not correct. Sister was in danger of being misunderstood.

 

[otjm]

I am an Anglican/Episcopalian in the US. Our Church has just concluded it’s General Convention, where I am sure you have heard, sacramental marriage adaptations were decided upon. There were long discussions before the decisions were made, amongst the House of Bishops as well as amongst clergy and laity.

One of the things I appreciate most about Anglicanism is that there is room for many thoughts, theologies, disciplines, and practices (truly the via media), yet we are united in Christ. There are hard things we must work through and we are doing that. There have also been schisms, also with hard feelings. But in the end, we are the Body of Christ. We listen to each other, support each other, learn from each other, and then come together around the Table.

There have been lists of decisions which have been made within the Anglican/Episcopalian world which have been causing a greater and greater chasm, and the result of that chasm has been in part the causation of reconciliation between certain parts of that community and Rome. This decision may be the impetus for more to “cross the Tiber”.

Moral law is either absolute, or it is a malleable, culturally driven ideology subject only to place and time. The liberal wing of the Anglican/Episcopalian Church is in the driver’s seat and seems bound and determined to follow politically correctness in the mode of Western - North American and European - cultures. Not that they don’t have fellow travelers in the Lutheran, Presbyterian and Methodist camps; but to gather around the Table is either an act to acknowledge and follow the Truth (Christ), or to remake the Gospels, and our understanding of Christ, to be time and place driven; in other words, to make Him a sage and a guru, willing to tell us what we want to hear, rather than what we need to hear.

I don’t think in the last 100 years there has been a more prophetic document than Humanae Vitae; nor a church leader more charismatic and inspired than Pope Paul VI. He absolutely nailed it, and now the Supreme Legislative Body has put one more round into advancing the Secular Philosophy by usurping the role of the legislature and legislating by fiat a further breakdown in natural law; a point made years ago in the document as the natural progression of ignoring that natural law. And they - the Court - seem to only be matched by the vacuity of the leaders of the Anglican/Episcopalian branch of Christianity. The fallout will continue, as people who can actually read the Gospels and the Epistles come to terms with the disparity of practice and Word.

 

[commenter]

Amen.

Bishop Fulton Sheen:

"Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

"It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.

"The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth.

"It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.

"The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom.

"Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.

"Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment.

“Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.”

Ed

Very true.

It is known Sheen was influenced by G. K. Chesterton. This writing appears to possibly reflect the GKC book “Orthodoxy”, as well as other influences no doubt. More true today than ever before.