A claim that Jesus didn't die on the cross?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Forte
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Since when? As far as I knew, there was no actual proof of a historical Jesus.
I have not seen this proof for myself, but it is a safe assumption.

The Romans were more meticulous in their record keeping than the US Government is today, and they did it without technology!

We have an approximate time period for the birth of Christ, because we know when the census discussed in scripture took place. It is the same way we are able to know approximately when Christ was crucified, because there are records of capital punishment, and we know when the people mentioned in the Bible (Pilate, Herod, Caiphus, etc.) were in their positions of authority.

I do not doubt that there is physical evidence of Christ’s existence.
 
I do not have citations handy, but historians that were contemporary to Jesus wrote about Him. That He was a historical figure is not disputed by scholars. I believe one of the more well known historians of the time ~ Flavius Josephus ~ was one of them.
 
OK, good to know. That was the only one I remembered since I do not make a habit of collecting quotes or citations. Thanks for letting me know. I won’t do that again. Since I have read that several contemporary historians mention the existence of Jesus, I trust that not all of them are suspect?
 
From prominent Jewish scholar Geza Vermes on Jesus in the Eyes of Josephus which comes the closest to what most scholars today believe Josephus wrote of Jesus. Vermes writes:

"In conclusion, what seems to be Josephus’s authentic portrait of Jesus depicts him as a wise teacher and miracle worker, with an enthusiastic following of Jewish disciples who, despite the crucifixion of their master by order of Pontius Pilate in collusion with the Jerusalem high priests, remained faithful to him up to Josephus’s days.

Let me offer therefore the text that I believe Josephus wrote. The Christian additions, identified in the paragraph that follows the earlier reproduction of the English translation of Antiquities 18: 63-64, are excised and the deletions are indicated by …]. The dubious authenticity of the phrase “[and many Greeks?]” (see the same paragraph above) is signalled by the question mark. Finally, the word [called] is inserted into the sentence “He was [called] the Christ” on the basis of Josephus’s description of James as “the brother of Jesus called the Christ”.

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man…For he was one who performed paradoxical deeds and was the teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews [and many Greeks?]. He was [called] the Christ. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him…And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
standpointmag.co.uk/node/2507/full

But of course, the Gospels, the Letters of Paul, and the Epistles are our central “historical” proof. The Christ movement must have been quite strong if already by the reign of Nero, Nero was blaming Christians for the fire of Rome in 64 A.D. according to Roman historian Tacitus.
 
There is really just ONE reason for the denial of Jesus’ death on the cross.

**- THE REJECTION OF THE SALVATION GRACE OF GOD - **

.
actually, the reason some faiths would do this is thats their effort to legitimize their faith that is not based on Christ
 
Their logic is that God saved Jesus from death, and when you try to point to those verses they will start to point to the “inaccuracies” of the Bible and say that the people at the crucifixion did not recognize Simon, but instead they saw Jesus.
John 19:25- Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. 26 When Jesus saw his mother and disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.”

I don’t understand how this claim has any legs when you think about how a mother would not know her own child?
 
John 19:25- Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. 26 When Jesus saw his mother and disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.”

I don’t understand how this claim has any legs when you think about how a mother would not know her own child?
As i’ve said before, I don’t agree with their teaching but that is what it is. They would argue that the “son” mentioned is actually Jesus, or that “something” obscured the person being crucified so that he was unrecognizable.
 
I was reading an online Koran (muslim.org/english-quran/quran.htm if I’m allowed to link) and on Surah 4:157-158 the footnotes give New Testament “proof” that Jesus didn’t die on the cross. Most of it is just junk, in my humble opinion, but I’m not sure how to refute the claim that even Pontius Pilate was surprised that Jesus was dead.

The scripture in question, Mark 15:44, is that Pontius Pilate was surprised Jesus was already dead. Just to clarify, was Pilate surprised that Jesus died so soon, or was he surprised that they cruicifed Jesus so soon after being sentenced to crucifixion, or what?

Some clarification would be much appreciated.
First and foremost, we should ask is ’ who stands to gain by this information? who wants to feed wrong information to the world? who wants to make the sacrifice of Jesus, an event that never took place? SATAN

What Islam portrays is that If Jesus never died on the cross, than there should be no Christianity, yet muslims do except that there is Christianity.

What Islam also says is that God is a liar and a magician, who after all the prophesies of Jesus’s death, didnt let it happen, and or that the replacement theory is of a magician.

Who is scared of the Cross? yes SATAN, AND so Islam does not accept the true fact due to that fear.
 
As i’ve said before, I don’t agree with their teaching but that is what it is. They would argue that the “son” mentioned is actually Jesus, or that “something” obscured the person being crucified so that he was unrecognizable.
I understand that, I was just using your statement to answer anyone who needed justification, not yourself though.
 
There is a well attested belief in the impassibility of God. Which makes sense, once one thinks about it.

Some early Christians came to believe that the Christ/Messiah (being God) could not have died on the cross, and left Jesus the man to die alone. Unless I have missed my guess this was basically an adoptionist viewpoint.

Ultimately, this was not the orthodox view and people who espoused this were considered Christian heretics. It is very likely (but not possible to prove) that people who held this view (perhaps Jewish-Christians or Gnostics) were dwelling in the margins of the empire and in the deserts, where Muhammed (being a merchant-traveler) may have encountered them.
 
I think Islam rejects the Crucifixion since Muhammad was not learned in Christian theology during His ministry - Muhammad probably did not know how to read and write! He was probably influenced by Christian Docetism - a belief that Christ could not have been Crucified because he was not made of flesh (An Early Heresy).
There were areas where the “heretical” version of Christianity was the first and earliest version for them. I suspect there were hidden groups especially on the African continent as Egypt’s Alexandria was where some forms of Gnosticism took hold. I think there’s some evidence to believe that what Muhammed learned of Christianity was from a non-orthodox group that survived in communities…like the Mandaenans.
 
First and foremost, we should ask is ’ who stands to gain by this information? who wants to feed wrong information to the world? who wants to make the sacrifice of Jesus, an event that never took place? SATAN

What Islam portrays is that If Jesus never died on the cross, than there should be no Christianity, yet muslims do except that there is Christianity.

What Islam also says is that God is a liar and a magician, who after all the prophesies of Jesus’s death, didnt let it happen, and or that the replacement theory is of a magician.

Who is scared of the Cross? yes SATAN, AND so Islam does not accept the true fact due to that fear.
EXACTLY!!

There are some thoughts:

What if when Uthman burned the various Qurans he burned the wrong ones?

What if when the hadiths were written 200 years after Mohammads death, they got them WRONG?

What if the Quran is supposed to be read from the aramaic-syriac language and not arabic?

**The Death and Crucifixion of Jesus in the Quran By Gabriel Sawma **

*But contrary to the Hadith interpretation of the Qur’anic verse, and contrary to the translation mentioned above, and to the erroneous interpretation rendered by Abdullah Yussuf Ali, the Qur’an does not deny the death and Crucifixion of Jesus, the Messiah. In fact the Aramaic language of the Qur’an is identical to the story of Crucifixion mentioned in the New Testament.

The Qur’anic conjugation “w” in the word “[w]ama” is similar to Aramaic “w” meaning ‘so, then, and’; Akkadian “u”. The Qur’anic word “wama” has been interpreted erroneously as ‘did not’. Syriac “wmo, or “wma” is an interrogative pronoun means ‘what’. Syriac “wmo li wlokh” or “wma li wlokh” means ‘and what have I to do with you’. The Qur’anic verse, “wama qataluhu” is identical to Aramaic “wm qtlhu”, Syriac “wmo qatluuy, or wma qatluuy” means ‘what they slew’. The Qur’anic verse “wama salabuuhu” is identical to Syriac “wmo salbuuy or wma salbuuy” meaning ‘what they crucified’. In other words, the Qur’an is saying: ‘what they slew and what they crucified’, a confirmation of the death and crucifixion of Jesus, the Messiah.

The Qur’anic word “walaaken” has been interpreted erroneously as ‘but’. Aramaic “lkn”. The initial “l” is a prepostion, it means ‘to, for, in regard to’. When the suffixes are added, it is pronounced ‘li (mine), lokh, or lakh (yours, sing.), leh (his), loh (hers), lan (ours), lkhuun (yours, plural), lkhen (yours, fem. Plu.). When the vowel sign /a/ is added to the Syriac “lkhen”, it turns into “lakhen”, Arabic “laken”, which means ‘theirs’. It is important to keep in mind that the early Qur’anic manuscripts did not use the vowel signs. Thus the original word used in the Qur’an was “lkn” as in Syriac “lken, or lkhen” meaning (yours, fem. Plu), which is found in Syriac Peshito (Ezekiel 13: 18) and Biblia Hebraica “lknh” (Eze. 13: 18). The reference to feminine plural in the Qur’anic verse is compatible with the Biblical events, which are mentioned in Matthew 27: 55, which reads the following: “There were many women there, looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee and helped him. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the wife of Zebede”. The Qur’anic word “shubbiha” has been interpreted erroneously as ‘he was made to appear to them like the one crucified’. Syriac “shabah” means ‘blessed’. The Qur’anic preposition “lahum” is equivalent to Aramaic “lhmh” meaning ‘in regard to, in reference to’ (Jer. 14: 16).

The correct interpretation is: ‘and they say, we did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, what they slew, and what they crucified, and to you (the women who followed Jesus at the Crucifixion) he is blessed and to them (his followers) as well. *
 
I once heard a very interesting sermon that Jesus did not suffer as long as usual on the cross as most crucifixion victims out of GOD’s mercy for HIS SON. Also disscussed was that Jesus was in complete control of the situation.

Luke 23
46Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Matthew 27
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

The Quran is really a vaque jumbled mess but it can be sorted out to make sense if you follow the TRUTH that is in the Holy Bible.

Allah talking about Jesus’ ressurection:
2.56 Then We raised you up after your death: Ye had the chance to be grateful.
3:54 And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

Allah raising Jesus up to be with him:
3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

The crucifixion:
4.155 (They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, “Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah’s Word; We need no more)”;- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-

4:156 That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

Simply says the Jews did not crucify Jesus. When you think about it who didAll us sinners!!!
4:157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

4.171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs

So Muslim are supposed to ask us!
10.094 If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

Jesus talking in the Quran:
19.33 “So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life”!
19.34 Such Jesus the son of Mary: a statement of truth, about which they dispute.
Because of the things said about Mary by the Jews this had to be added- Christians in no way believe that GOD had sexual intercourse with Mary:
19.35 It is not befitting to Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be”, and it is.

Abraham and the almost sacrifice of Isaac foreshadowing of Jesus’ sacrifice:
37.106 For this was obviously a trial-
37.107 And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
37.108 And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
 
40.png
Esdra:
Why can’t that be possible in your eyes that the disciples saw Christ, although He wasn’t crucified?
This is very easy possible: If Christ wasn’t a human & a god (like the Christians say), but a god, he of course could appear the disciples and the 12.
I think this was the core idea, “stolen” from a heretic sect. (see above!)
Because of the data. If Christ wasn’t crucified even though all the gospel accounts show that He not only knew that He was going to be killed but also how-crucifixtion-that would make Him a liar. Does a good God lie to His followers?

It wouldn’t even make Jesus a good man but a very bad man because good men don’t lie about such things.

Christianity doesn’t say that “Christ wasn’t a human & a god”. Christianity says that Christ was both human & God-True God and true Man. Hence we say truthfully that God the Son died on the cross.

The only other possibility was that all the apostles and disciples were hallucinating when they saw the resurrected Jesus. Which is also impossible because hallicinations are not group events but take place in individual minds.

Which would also mean that the apostles who converted the world were lunatics and even died for their lunacy?! Do lunatics go about doing good deeds like curing people and bringing people back from the dead? Absurd.
40.png
Esdra:
Or another possibility: If he wasn’t crucified but Simon (or Jude) - he also, of course, could appear the disciples because he didn’t die! - Then he was a human, a prophet like Muhammed! And then he was lifted up into heaven, like Muhammed…

So they (the Apostels) didn’t lie. Always remember: Muslims claim that there are many mistakes in the Holy Bible (and of course also in the Scriptures of the Jews!)! And that the Qu’ran is the only true Holy Book.
You also forget that the people who buried Jesus knew who He was and what He looked like. They took Him down off of the cross and placed His body in the tomb and watched the stone be rolled in front of it. Then they say that they saw Him again raised from the dead.

The Roman soldiers were professionals, not a bunch of bungling idiots. They would know which man was the condemned because if they failed in their job it meant their own deaths.

The Sanhedrin and the other Jewish authorities who cried for His crucifixtion, do you honestly think that they wouldn’t have recognized Jesus hanging on the cross?
40.png
Esdra:
To conclude: I think it is quite difficult to argue with Muslims about religion. Because they will always say the the Bible is wrong!
Any ideas how one could evengelize Muslims?
If they say such their argument begs the question. They are assuming that which they are trying to prove. The Bible is wrong? Which parts are wrong because not all the parts of the Bible are the same; some are narrative and some are historical? And how do they know? On top of the Bible there are secular records that I have mentioned in previous posts that show that Jesus was crucified and not some other.
 
What is also important to note is that regardless of the Biblical proof you find, Muslims will still say that Jesus was saved from his death and ascended into Heaven. They will point to the Bible and say that after Simon of Cyrene is ordered to carry the cross for Jesus, no mention is made that it was ever returned to Jesus.
Execept that he was hung on it!!! :eek:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top