"A Clockwork Orange" and criminal reform

[Whitacre_Girl]

I have a friend who was recently sent to prison, and it has me thinking a lot about criminal reform. Not to mention I have been told about “A Clockwork Orange” and I just sat down to watch it this afternoon.

What are your thoughts for that kind of conditioning for willing criminals? What are your thoughts on criminal reform? I don’t know why, but I personally always feel so confused when I watch these films or think about it.

My heart breaks for the injustice done to the victims, and the choices made by the criminals. I have a strong pull to see justice done to the offenders…but at the same time my heart absolutely breaks for these people who have become so warped that they think their crimes were justified. It’s like I see the child within them that was never loved, never taught right from wrong, and never cared for. You know? I’d really like to hear your thoughts.

It just feels like violent crime is detestable not only for the victims, but a horrible crime agains tthe humanity for the offender. I don’t know what to feel, you know?

 

[jmcrae]

I have a friend who was recently sent to prison, and it has me thinking a lot about criminal reform. Not to mention I have been told about “A Clockwork Orange” and I just sat down to watch it this afternoon.

What are your thoughts for that kind of conditioning for willing criminals? What are your thoughts on criminal reform? I don’t know why, but I personally always feel so confused when I watch these films or think about it.

Well, the conditioning obviously didn’t work for Alex, in the story. I think the point of the story is that violent criminals cannot be reformed, and must be kept in jail. Under Catholic teaching, he would probably be a good candidate for the death penalty, since the jail couldn’t confine him.

I don’t know anything about your friend, of course, but I think we all want to justify our actions, especially when we know we’re wrong. I also think that most people who commit criminal acts probably feel in their own minds that they have good reasons for doing what they do - even though the rest of us can’t relate to those reasons, they somehow made sense at the time, to the person who did the action.

Keep in mind, there is no such job as “criminal” - all of us are criminals, any time we break the law. Most of the time, we only break very minor laws, or else we don’t hurt anyone and we don’t get caught - but there is only a difference in degree between someone who recklessly endangers life by speeding down the highway or jaywalking in heavy traffic (it’s just pure chance that the jaywalker and the speeder don’t suddenly encounter each other more often), and someone who recklessly endangers life by selling illegal drugs, or setting off a gun in a crowded area.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Well, the conditioning obviously didn’t work for Alex, in the story. I think the point of the story is that violent criminals cannot be reformed, and must be kept in jail. Under Catholic teaching, he would probably be a good candidate for the death penalty, since the jail couldn’t confine him.

I don’t know anything about your friend, of course, but I think we all want to justify our actions, especially when we know we’re wrong. I also think that most people who commit criminal acts probably feel in their own minds that they have good reasons for doing what they do - even though the rest of us can’t relate to those reasons, they somehow made sense at the time, to the person who did the action.

Keep in mind, there is no such job as “criminal” - all of us are criminals, any time we break the law. Most of the time, we only break very minor laws, or else we don’t hurt anyone and we don’t get caught - but there is only a difference in degree between someone who recklessly endangers life by speeding down the highway or jaywalking in heavy traffic (it’s just pure chance that the jaywalker and the speeder don’t suddenly encounter each other more often), and someone who recklessly endangers life by selling illegal drugs, or setting off a gun in a crowded area.

Hmmm…a good thought.

I should clarify, my friend was going through the stress of having a pregnant wife in the hospital with twins, not knowing if the babies were going to make it. He lost his business, was being sued, went bankrupt, and looked out his window one morning to see an unmarked tow truck hooking up his only vehicle. He ran out to the street with an unloaded shotgun to tell the men to leave his car alone. Turns out the men were repo men, and he was charged with two counts of aggravated assault. He received 3 years, which started about 2 weeks after his children were born.

Basically, life circumstances and a few poor choices led to a very troubled mental state. He reacted brashly when he thought his only form of transportation to see his wife and get to work was being stolen, and now all that stress combine with missing the first 3 years of his kids life have led him to be suicidal and severely depressed. He’s been transferred to a mental institute prison for extra help.

It just has me thinking a lot about our prison and criminal justice system.

 

[Hastrman]

The problem with “A Clockwork Orange” is, the guy is a complete monster. It’s supposed to be so terrible that they “conditioned” him like that, but after the stuff he does, you’re really in a mood to see him undergo a DJ battle between Roman and Chinese penal torturers, or something. No I don’t mean that’s actually the policy I would favor in real corrections, but it just doesn’t bother to win your sympathy at all.

And in the book, at the end, he decides to give up his life of crime, and settle down and start a family—and, apparently, we’re supposed to just forget about all the horrible things he’s done. Sorry but you don’t get the normal life you ruined for other people; at minimum, you better dedicate your life to the poor or something.

Also there’s really no way to recondition criminals like that, without full-on lobotomizing them. So it’s like “I wanna talk about rehabilitative corrections, but at the same time I want to add some weird SF gimmick rather than talking about the real thing.” It’s not like Larry Niven’s books, where criminals are broken up into the organ banks, and the people eventually vote the death penalty for traffic tickets—sure the surgeons are robotic but the principles involved are real.

Clockwork Orange is just not very good science fiction, or indeed fiction period.

 

[Rascalking]

The problem with “A Clockwork Orange” is, the guy is a complete monster. It’s supposed to be so terrible that they “conditioned” him like that, but after the stuff he does, you’re really in a mood to see him undergo a DJ battle between Roman and Chinese penal torturers, or something. No I don’t mean that’s actually the policy I would favor in real corrections, but it just doesn’t bother to win your sympathy at all.

And in the book, at the end, he decides to give up his life of crime, and settle down and start a family—and, apparently, we’re supposed to just forget about all the horrible things he’s done. Sorry but you don’t get the normal life you ruined for other people; at minimum, you better dedicate your life to the poor or something.

Also there’s really no way to recondition criminals like that, without full-on lobotomizing them. So it’s like “I wanna talk about rehabilitative corrections, but at the same time I want to add some weird SF gimmick rather than talking about the real thing.” It’s not like Larry Niven’s books, where criminals are broken up into the organ banks, and the people eventually vote the death penalty for traffic tickets—sure the surgeons are robotic but the principles involved are real.

Clockwork Orange is just not very good science fiction, or indeed fiction period.

You took the words out of my mouth, literally. Word for word. Spooky.

 

[jmcrae]

Hmmm…a good thought.

I should clarify, my friend was going through the stress of having a pregnant wife in the hospital with twins, not knowing if the babies were going to make it. He lost his business, was being sued, went bankrupt, and looked out his window one morning to see an unmarked tow truck hooking up his only vehicle. He ran out to the street with an unloaded shotgun to tell the men to leave his car alone. Turns out the men were repo men, and he was charged with two counts of aggravated assault. He received 3 years, which started about 2 weeks after his children were born.

Wow.

Okay, yes, I can see how he might be thinking that that’s a pretty harsh response to what from his point of view was a momentary lapse in judgement - but at the same time, we also have to consider the point of view of the men who were just doing their job, and the neighbors - nobody wants to be threatened with a gun at work, and nobody wants to look out the window and see one of their neighbors yelling angrily and waving a gun around. He might not be considering the fact that he was the only one who knew that the gun wasn’t loaded - everyone else was (sensibly) assuming that it was loaded. They had reason to fear for their own safety.

If you heard about something like this on the news, or if it was you looking out the window and seeing a neighbor yelling at people and waving a gun, you’d probably want to see something substantial being done about it - people can’t - no matter how good they are, normally - people can’t be getting away with stuff like that, and they can’t appear to get away with it. The majority of people act or don’t act based on what they think they can get away with, and if people are appearing to get away with this sort of thing, then you would start to see it a lot more often.

He also probably did know, or at least suspect, that they were repo men, unless he was completely unaware of being behind on his bills.

Basically, life circumstances and a few poor choices led to a very troubled mental state. He reacted brashly when he thought his only form of transportation to see his wife and get to work was being stolen, and now all that stress combine with missing the first 3 years of his kids life have led him to be suicidal and severely depressed. He’s been transferred to a mental institute prison for extra help.

That’s good. And if it really was completely out of character for him to do that, then the parole board will realize it, and he will probably get out of prison sooner - and hopefully he’ll have the support he needs to get a good job and to turn his life around.

 

[catsrus]

“A Clockwork Orange” aside; Your friend’s story broke my heart. I too feel for both the victims and perpetrators. Often, the perps come from horrific backgrounds and though that’s no excuse, it makes some of the crime understandable.
I sincerely believe that a lot of crime is due to the conditioning of our society to debase and depersonalize other humans and yes, animals as well. One day’s worth of TV speaks for itself in this regard. A steady diet of the smarm of TV, internet, movies, etc.over time desensitizes.