A comment on the Holy Father’s Mass at Nationals Stadium [Fr. Z]

[pnewton]

Is that where the term “grandstanding” came from?

I heard they even gave free bobbleheads to the first 10,000.

Hey, at least it’s better than taking a Communion souvenir home.

How about a liturgical laser/light show. Fireworks could take the place of Sanctus bells. Flood lights could zoom down on the consecrated host. For a papal blessing at the end, a large smoke machine could cascade special effect smoke down from the altar through the people to the tune of “Jesus Christ, Superstar.”

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

How about a liturgical laser/light show. Fireworks could take the place of Sanctus bells. Flood lights could zoom down on the consecrated host. For a papal blessing at the end, a large smoke machine could cascade special effect smoke down from the altar through the people to the tune of “Jesus Christ, Superstar.”

Is this the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass we are talking about. A reenactment of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for us and our salvation. Wow. such reverence.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Joe_Kelley]

In 1961 my wife and I visited St Peter’s; the bleacher stands had just been erected in preparation for VII. While we waited for Pope John XXIII’s arrival some German seminarians intoned the Gregorian Credo and everyone joined in. I don’t know how big the crowd was but it filled a substantial portion of St Peter’s and everyone seemed to know the piece.

In the early 70’s we again visited Rome and waited for Pope John Paul II in the square in front of St Peter’s. It was pretty well filled with people from many lands. As we waited each sang their version of Kumbaya or whatever. All I could think of was the end scene in 55 Days at Peking where they are all singing their national anthem, and Charlton Heston comments, “Oh well, they were united for a few days.”

 

[pnewton]

Is this the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass we are talking about. A reenactment of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for us and our salvation. Wow. such reverence.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Yes, but this is an internet forum. Therefore, I have shown no lack of reverence in an error where reverence is appropriate. Humor is allowed on the internet. The incongruity of the Holy Sacrifice and a sports stadium is deserving of a little humor.

RAH! RAH! RAH!

 

[Seagirt]

I am not knocking your opinion, as you are certainly entitled to it, just as are all of us. I am simply asking and pointing that much of what we see and hear, in music that we do not like, is cultural. The Church is universal. Do I like everyone’s music, no I don’t. What you and I like as Church music is mostly European and goes back 100s of years or more. As a universal Church, we say we embrace everyone. If we embrace everyone, we must embrace them as they are. (If their culture embraces sinful ways, we correct them.) Some of their music may go back, in some cultures, as far or further than ours. It is the words that are sung that make the music sacred, not the notes or melodies that are used to express them.
Prayers s& blessings
Deacon Ed B

I agree with you on this post that Music is cultural. While i prefer Western classical Music; some young people prefer " popular, louder type music" or evan African drum music. BTW, i thought that the singing of the AVA MARIA by Kelly Clarkson was reverent and quite touching. I thought Raymond Arroyo’s comments were a mite snotty,-- he said… " she INSISTED on singing the AVE to the Holy Father"… now what does that mean ?

 

[brotherhrolf]

have you seen liturgies, masses in Viet Nam, in Africa, In India,in the Far East, Oceania etc. it is not all as you say mon ami. Many of these areas are only now being brought into the true fold and some of the music they bring with them is truly inspiring. I have to admit, I do not like it all, but some is truly amazing.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

I’ve sung in Vietnamese, Deacon Ed. We have ordained several Vietnamese priests over here. I am not against ethnicity where ethnicity is a valid concern. I don’t want to brag so let’s just say I know my way around the halls of anthropology and history.

I reiterate my objection to the Hispanic “folk” hymns from OCP. There exists perfectly good sacred motets written by Cuban and Mexican composers. You have spoken about the musical traditions of people. You cannot tell me that 40 years ago the OCP music I heard was the norm in Havana or Mexico City.

Singing in Zulu? Swahili would have been a far better choice. I am not aware of massive Zulu immigration. Haiti? I’ve discussed that as well. Just because the Haitians are immigrating to the East Coast doesn’t mean that there are no Americans of both white and black Haitian ancestry who have been here for 200 years.

Where were the Irish, French, German, Polish, Lithuanian, Scot, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, Croatian, etc. etc. etc. hymns? Do you think that the Filipinos do not have a tradition of sacred music that aligns itself with HMC? Dance music is dance music is dance music. What I heard in Washington was dance music. I would condemn dance music such as “I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say” which is sung to the tune of the “Star of the County Down” if it were played with bodhran, tin whistle and Uillean pipes just as well as I would condemn any “two step” hymn.

This has all come from the “I’m OK; you’re OK” school of relativism which has developed in the last 40 years. Dance hall music belongs in the dance hall.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

My Cajun friend, believe me when I say, I am anything but relative. I know that can be taken two ways, and some of you probably will. My point, you are entitled to your opinion, so long as it does not conflict with dogma.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[brotherhrolf]

Dear Deacon Ed: I don’t believe anything I’ve said conflicts with dogma. The Mass at Washington stands in stark contrast to any other Mass including today’s. We got a bellyfull of OCP music and OCP is not publishing music that reflects our ethnicity (Deo gratias ite Deo Gratias). To treat Hispanics as something new and to avoid their own genuine liturgical traditions is to cheapen them. There ARE Hispanic composers who wrote music to rival their European antecedants. What I heard was no different from the sacro-pop I can hear at my local geographic parish and why I drive 25 miles and have done so for the last 25 years.

In a culture of “I’m OK; you’re OK” this kind of cultural relativistm really gets to me. God bless my Hispanic bretheren but their ancestors had a proud tradition of sining Latin motets. We Cajuns are not infliciting our dance hall music onto the rest of Catholicism. There is absolutely no difference between the sacro-salsa and sacro-merengue than there is between the sacro-pop we hear in most parishes in the US.

I don’t believe it. I don’t accept it. There are far too many examples of ethnic composers who wrote music in their own ethnic idiom for HMC.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I did not say what you said conflicts with dogma. It was general statement about opinions vs. dogma and the acceptance thereof.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[marchoi]

Here’s how I see it. In trying to please all, we please none. Somehow in the attempt to “reflect the multicultural nature of the Church in America” we ended up with a smorgasbord of music, which apparently satisfied very few people.

Yes, personally, I thought that there were quite a bit of music that the Holy Father probably winced at (I’m speaking of the Washington Mass). I winced too and thought, “Well, isn’t this ironic? I guess the organizers didn’t read some of the Pope’s writings…” Yes, I support a more Latin-ized Mass to truly unite the Church. But does this mean I support getting rid of the Novus Ordo? Heavens no. Yes, I think the Novus Ordo Mass can be celebrated quite reverently, and anyone who thinks otherwise ought to talk to the Holy See. The poor selection of music at the Papal Mass does not mean that the Novus Ordo is fundamentally flawed.

And it is quite interesting, seeing as the Vatican HAD to have been involved somewhat in the planning of the liturgy… I wonder if they ever looked at the music selection… Hmm…

It seems to me that, at the end of the day, even if the music selection was less than perfect (obviously an understatement), what is key is that I was able to participate in the Holy Eucharist celebrated by the Successor of Peter, upon whom Jesus built His Church. Was the music selection mediocre? Surely. But should that detract from the value of the Mass? Never.

 

[Leeta]

Yes. the Church includes people of every age, race, and time, but that doesn’t mean we have to tokenly parade a carefully selected variety of cultures at a Mass in America! Since when do have Chinese or Thai Masses at your average parish in America? The Mass is ultimately outside of time and culture. So why this contrived appearance of cultural diversity? We are not Europe where many different language groups and cultures exist side-by-side and within a short distance of each other. Actually we are culturally homogenous in comparison to Europe.
Our culture is American, not African or Chinese. We speak English. You can’t expect to last long in this country without knowing English.
So all the objections to Latinin the Mass must be just hypocrisy. Its Ok to attend Mass in a foreign language and not understand the words, but not when it is in Latin.

 

[elt1956]

I gotta say, you are quite right on both counts. Quoting the Pope is one thing, but assuming we know what he thinks is silly. And I agree, outside of a necessity because of persecution, the Mass should be prayed in a consecrated church, oratory, cathedral, chapel, basilica, etc. A large gathering of the faithful is fine for listening to the Pope speak and praying with him , but “temporary sanctuaries” are really a bit much.

Did y’all hear about the temporary confessionals built beneath the stadium? It is my understanding they were very popular spots. I wonder how many Catholics came back to the Church yesterday because the Head of our Faith reached out to them in a “STADIUM”. Somehow when I start to say stadium the image of a “STABLE” comes to mind.

 

[wcknight]

Didn’t have the opportunity to see the mass at Nationals stadium. but a Catholic mass in Vietnamese is something really special. Years ago I got to attend a mass at Our Lady of Vietnam in Maryland and the music there was the most heavenly music I’ve ever heard. IF Heaven matches or exceeds this, I can’t wait to hear it again.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Didn’t have the opportunity to see the mass at Nationals stadium. but a Catholic mass in Vietnamese is something really special. Years ago I got to attend a mass at Our Lady of Vietnam in Maryland and the music there was the most heavenly music I’ve ever heard. IF Heaven matches or exceeds this, I can’t wait to hear it again.

Our local Vietnamese community has a great choir. I hear them at weddings occasionally when I arrive early for Confession, or they run late. Wish I could get to hear them more often.