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mlchance
Guest
So you claim the Holy Spirit empowers you to infallibly interpret Scripture to determine correct doctrine, and you’re doing so in the same thread that you state disbelief in papal infallibility.
– Mark L. Chance.
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– Mark L. Chance.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Good observation Mark. I have been making this observation repeatedly when interacting with Protestants. They simply are utterly blind to the fact that all the revolution has attempted (unsuccessfully) was to “take” the infallible authority from The Church including its apostolic leaders (Pope, Bishops, Priests and even lay ministry) and lay its hand on the revolutionaries to declare each individual infallible. It is at its core “mob rule” and anarchy - the exact same pattern of Lucifer when He fell through pride and refusal to serve to become the shameful and utterly disgraced Satan. Eventually even mobs come to realize that everyone suffers under anarchy and there will be an attempt to remedy the deficiency through self-directed “councils” - and that is just what Protestants are doing. They are attempting to redefine the structure of God’s Kingdom around a majority rule theology as if salvation and truth are outcomes of the mediocrity of Democratic rule and compromise. Thus the inevitable pattern protestantism will suffer is the same that we see in its secular counterpart. That is, discontent over losing individual excellence by reaching a least common denominator compromise will lead to precipitating clusters of ecclesiastical communities (at last count 30,000 or so I believe) of like minded individuals. These will then fight with their neighboring communities until such time as new regional leaders emerge through social-economic power or force of politic. Eventually Protestants if they do not come back to The Church will naturally have to elect their own pope or CEO spokesperson and take on a corporate structure that will look more like fascism than it does an assembly of God.
But everyone forgets God’s Divine Providence and that is what controls the external environment. God will simply knock down anything that He chooses not to permit. Either way Protestantism is doomed either individually or institutionally to suffer itself as well as God’s displeasure and wrath.
James
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Orionthehunter
Guest
Protestantman, with all do respect, you have not answered this question. You have just said “my text” in your opinion trumps “your text”. This is an insult to the wholeness of Scripture and the wholeness of the Word, Jesus Christ.
The problem with your free will argument is that it implies that we have free will until we make a commitment to Christ at which time that Salvation is inviolable. It almost is like a covenant that binds God no matter what sin and abomination that we might do later.
OSAS advocates then say that such a person was really never saved. Well, a large percentage of people that I know who live under this “assurance” do not live a very Christian life. They are penurious, mean-spritited and judgmental. But they claim they are saved. They live their entire life under an illusion that OSAS theology teaches they are saved. And, even the OSAS advocate says such a person will go to Hell. Any teaching that “encourages” people to live under a false promise is faulty at its core.
An OSAS advocate says they must make a commitment to Christ and then live that life daily. Well, in practice this is what the Catholic Church teaches and we don’t do it with a false teaching that fails to incorporate the Scripture that makes the point similar to:
This very poignant point by Mark reinforces what I said above. People believe that because of their OSAS “commitment” they are given special gifts to interpret Scripture infallibly such that they don’t ever feel a need to reconcile the differences of interpretation that abound. The end effect is that the Holy Spirit doesn’t speak with one voice but a cacophony of disparate voices as each person claims to become their own Magisterium. This cacophony becomes just noise which is the voice of Satan.
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jmcrae
Guest
That’s a good point.
It’s interesting how the Holy Spirit can infallibly guide every random Protestant who prays with the community of believers once a week when he isn’t playing golf (even though they contradict one another on almost every issue), but a fully educated Catholic such as the Pope, who prays with the community of believers at least seven times a day (Liturgy of the Hours, Mass, Rosary), is left to stumble in the dark?
Please …
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ni8_shadow
Guest
protestantman, you mentioned faith and works as two things people might see as contradicting. Not true, the Catholic and I believe the Orthodox have always held these two together.
The contradicions I speak of in protestantism are truly indeed contradicions.
Some denominations don’t believe in infant baptism, some do. There is no middle ground here. Either you do it or you don’t.
Some believe you can lose salvation, some say you can never lose it. Again no middle ground.
Some believe in the prescence in the Eucharist, some say it is just bread and water. No middle ground.
The Holy Spirit could not have possibly led each denomination to these doctrinces since they blatantly contradict eachother.
The Church has the Holy Spirit guiding it as Christ promised it would. No where does Christ even mention anything remotely similar to sola scriptura, but He does mention a Church with authority to bind and loose.
The contradicions I speak of in protestantism are truly indeed contradicions.
Some denominations don’t believe in infant baptism, some do. There is no middle ground here. Either you do it or you don’t.
Some believe you can lose salvation, some say you can never lose it. Again no middle ground.
Some believe in the prescence in the Eucharist, some say it is just bread and water. No middle ground.
The Holy Spirit could not have possibly led each denomination to these doctrinces since they blatantly contradict eachother.
The Church has the Holy Spirit guiding it as Christ promised it would. No where does Christ even mention anything remotely similar to sola scriptura, but He does mention a Church with authority to bind and loose.
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justasking4
Guest
Does a person need to be infallible to interpret the scriptures correctly?
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justasking4
Guest
Does the Holy Spirit infallilby guide catholics when they pray, read scripture or church teachings?That’s a good point.
It’s interesting how the Holy Spirit can infallibly guide every random Protestant who prays with the community of believers once a week when he isn’t playing golf (even though they contradict one another on almost every issue), but a fully educated Catholic such as the Pope, who prays with the community of believers at least seven times a day (Liturgy of the Hours, Mass, Rosary), is left to stumble in the dark?
Please …
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justasking4
Guest
Is the Holy Spirit guiding those churches that have it right though? Is the Holy Spirit guiding those churches that believe you can lose your salvation, infant baptism or belief in the prescence in the Eucharist?
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jmcrae
Guest
A person needs to have the guidance of an infallible teacher in order to do so - in order to know how to understand various confusing passages that are in the Bible.
The Holy Spirit does not normally guide individuals, though; He guides the Church as a whole. He can and does prod individuals in the right direction from time to time, but He expects us to look to the Church for guidance under ordinary circumstances. And yes, we should always pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance when we are reading the Scriptures, but having done so does not mean that every random thought that pops into our heads is coming from the Holy Spirit.
Not even the Pope is personally guided by the Holy Spirit, He, too, looks to the teachings of the Church.
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guanophore
Guest
No. A person can get it right just by dumb luck. For example, a broken watch is even right twice a day.
Yes, when such a one is perfectly unified with the Holy Church to whom the promise has been made.
The Catholic Church affirms that the HS does work through non-Catholic ecclesiastical communities. To the extent that they are in agreement with Catholic doctrine, they are following the guidance of the HS, yes. I am sure that the HS is attempting to guide EVERYONE into the knowledge of the truth. However, to the extent that people adhere to doctrines not taught by Jesus, they are lacking in following that lead. For examples, there are people who believe they are Christians, but don’t believe Jesus is God.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Good comments jmcrae.
I think most protestants get all agitated at the notion of “papal infallability” without really understanding what it really means. They can’t conceptually seperate individual behavior from infallible teaching. The can’t see Peter being a sinful man but under the guidance of the Holy Spirit penning scripture - something good and holy coming out of something prone to sin.
Also Protestants do not know that it is only on special occassions that the Pope actually speaks with infallability. An infallible pronouncement—whether made by the pope alone or by an ecumenical council —usually is made only when some doctrine has been called into question. Most doctrines have never been doubted by the large majority of Catholics.
Ironically, Protestants are completely unaware that the notion of infallability extends also to The Church as the body of Christ itself as an ecclesiastical body. The member conduct can be improper but The Church as a mystical entity is itself infallible. There is also the notion of the infallability of the the bishops dispersed throughout the world teaching in union with the Holy See.
Even many Catholics fail to grasp that each of us contributes or draws from in our own way to/from the vast spiritual treasury of The Church. We draw on the spiritual merits as well as offer to The Church our sacrifices of sufferings, prayers and alms and join our sacrifice in union through Christ’s sacrifice to benefit those members who need merits. We literally suffer for each other as a fraternity or spiritual family.
James
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Note that the Pharisees and Sadducees both had fractional truths without benefit of the Holy Spirit (since Jesus had not yet sent it). But Jesus disliked both sects. Jesus rejected the Sadducees outright and implied that the Pharisees were at least correct about an afterlife teaching and belief. But they were so far from the overall truth that he condemned them as ungodly and hypocritical men.
From this example I’d say that its possible to possess a particular truth without being receptive to the Holy Spirit since clearly some Christian sects are in physical possession of scripture and can’t help but get a few things righ from reading it. But what good is truth if for lack of holistic insight it’s taken out of its context to be used in ways that it does not have relevance and even inverts original meaning and intent?
James
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Orionthehunter
Guest
No. However, the fact that so many hold divergent interpretations on major Christian Doctrines means that all but one are wrong.
He tries to. However, we don’t always hear correctly.
He is tries to. However, they don’t always hear correctly. And, to one He promised that they would never be able to speak outside His Truth.
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protestantman
Guest
So catholics believe that ALL men have the ability to willingly turn from God?
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justasking4
Guest
I understand you to be a former protestant. During your protestant days and your reflection on them now do you think the teachings you heard from them were way off the truth?
How would a catholic know if he is “perfectly unified with the Holy Church”? What does he need to know to be in this condition?
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Do you agree then with the pope that protestant churches are not really churches but “ecclesiastical communities”?
Do you agree then that a protestant pastor-teacher can interpret some things correctly without the guidance of the pope and magesterium?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Satan thought so since he tried 3 times to tempt Jesus.
We will all be tried and we will all be judged.
James
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protestantman
Guest
You did not answer my questions about Judas, or Pharoh. They did not have a choice. The scripture is very clear on that. So where was their free will?
You obviously need to research the word Sovereign. Gods will is incapable of contradicting his divine nature.
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protestantman
Guest
Is the pope a man?
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protestantman
Guest
This is exactly what I am saying. Even if the Pope’s teaching is infallable, it is through the Holy Spirit revelation. The bible says that all spiritual truth comes from the Holy Spirit.
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”— 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"[d] But we have the mind of Christ.
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guanophore
Guest
Certainly. I still listen to a fair amount of Protestant teaching. Some of it is off the mark. I have heard some priests say things from the pulpit that are just as bothersome.
I think it is impossible for one person to know all of Catholic Teaching. For those of us that live in the West, the Catechism is a good summary.justasking4 said:
This is not something from the “pope” per se. He is quoting Catholic teaching. There is only One Church, the One Body of Christ. There are not “churches”. This is in scripture, I am surprised that you would disagree with it.justasking4 said:
No. It is the magesterium that preserved and promulgated the NT. There would be no NT to interpret otherwise.justasking4 said:
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