Christ is not a creation of my mind. He is eternal God. I didn’t create His Church. Christ did. I didn’t place authority in His Church. Christ did. I or my Pastor doesn’t run my Church but the Holy Spirit does. This is my Faith. It is not with pride that I accept this but in humility and Faith. As Catholics, we believe that to construct your own church and theology is what is prideful.
By the way, since the wisdom of God is infinite, Catholics don’t believe that the Church as been revealed everything but all that has been revealed to it is True.
You are so right that salvation comes from Christ. What we believe is that Christ gave us the Church to be a temporal means for us to know the “sure and normal” way toward Salvation.
When we hear all the cacophony of different churches, we don’t see Christ as the sole head but Christ at best as an “advisor” who continually is trumped by the disparate teaching of many different people.
Protestantman, I know this seems harsh. But no more so than your implication that we place the Church above Christ. I know that the concept that Christ and Holy Spirit are mysteriously and perfectly joined to the Church is hard to grasp as it is outside your learning and tradition. I’m just trying to drive the point home so you at least grasp our perspective. It is a thread implied in so much of our conversation. If you miss that perspective, you will miss the nuance of much that we are saying.
Because we have spoken with One unchanging voice since Pentecost, our Faith is reinforced as we see how Christ makes good on His promises to be with us always, that the Holy Spirit is truly guiding us, the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth, and that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail.
Well, it is possible to believe in Christ and reject the Church as many obviously do. The critical question is whether the rejection is by intentional sin or uninintentional ignorance.
Protestantman, I beg that you not over-react to the very strong response to your assertions. This is our Faith. Catholic Christians should believe it so strongly that we are prepared to die for it as so many Saints before us have done.
You asked some very good questions and made some very pointed assertions. This is good as it is dialogue. I took no offense at anything you asked or said. I hope you too no offense at my response.
Your summary of your faith was illuminating to me. I hope that what we are doing is illuminating to you. Besides just gaining better understanding of us, I hope that you are getting a sense that Catholics believe and do what we do out of submission to Christ. We might not be able to reconcile our differences and I’m not trying to promote some type “I’m OK, you’re OK” relativism so much as I want that impressions you have of the Church based on false information gets removed.
I feel much better when someone of your spirit and heart says:
“I understand Catholic teaching on the Eucharist but I’m not convinced. I understand Catholic teaching on Authority but I’m not convinced.” And the list goes on.
Maybe this is helpful. There is much that the Church teaches as True that I can’t get my head or heart around. As a Catholic I’m asked to assent in obedience of Faith to these teachings as obedience grants me graces for my battle with Satan. But I must always bring my heart in prayer and mind in learning to be acting not from obedience but understanding and love. There is no sin in this so long as I’m pursuing a reconciliation with sincerity. I make not condemnation or admonishment of you because you have the same “failing”
. I have no vision into your interior life and how the Holy Spirit is working in you.
And, part of the reason that I might not have my head and heart around these teachings is that I have a false understanding of the teaching. It is not the teaching that is false but my understanding. My false understanding may be from sin which requires that I remove that with God’s help. My false understanding can be from bad information which requires me to remove that with God’s guidance. While following this false understanding of the teaching in obedience isn’t ideal, I believe that God gives me graces in reward of obedience such that the false understanding will not be an impediment to my Salvation but ultimately lead to future true illumination.
There are some teachings that I have just my head around but not my heart. For these, I’m working on my Spiritual development so that my heart can embrace them as I believe the Holy Spirit desires. This is the focus of my prayer life.
There are some teachings that I have my heart around but not my head. For these, I participate in CAF discussions, read and learn from various sources, etc.
And there are others that the Church teaches as True that I do have my head/heart around because the Holy Spirit has convicted me of the Truth. It is these that I cling to with a fervent heart and mind as I know this is my path to Salvation.
It is my suspicion that most Catholics are similar. Sometimes you will see this in tone, focus, and arguments/comments. For instance, I will sometimes make a really good intellectual argument (in my mind at least) but it lacks heart and passion. I’m trying to bring my mind to where my heart is. Conversely, when I show too much passion, I’m trying to bring my heart where my mind is.
I thank God that I believe that I have my heart and mind around Authority and Real Presence. I’m convicted. I’m working feverishly as so many of my prudential judgments do not give me peace where my heart and mind conflict. If you stick around, you will find these areas by reading some of my other posts.
P.S. Protestantman: Does some of this go in your testimony thread?
Neither did Noah, or Abraham and Sarah!!