A compelling non-Catholic argument

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jmcrae said:
My faith is in Jesus Christ, who gave me the Church and the Pope as a free gift for my 40th birthday in 2001. 😃
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If your faith is in Christ, then you would look to Christ for truth. Instead you speak of truth as it comes from the Catholic church. Whether I am catholic or not I am a part of the Church. Anyone who puts Christ at the head is a part of the church. Not who accepts catholic teaching.
 
ni8_shadow said:
Sinful men who, if not for the Spirit, could have wrote fallible statement…hence they were fallible men.

Are you saying without the Spirit these men were infallible?
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No I am saying that they were indeed Fallible. Otherwise, they have no need for the Holy Spirit’s guidence.
 
protestantman said:
If your faith is in Christ, then you would look to Christ for truth. Instead you speak of truth as it comes from the Catholic church. Whether I am catholic or not I am a part of the Church. Anyone who puts Christ at the head is a part of the church. Not who accepts catholic teaching.
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The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Body - including the lips and mouth - of Jesus Christ. 🙂
 
jmcrae said:
Isn’t part of that to be obedient to Christ in His Church, and to listen to the men that God has placed in leadership over His Church? (Is it possible to be truly obedient to Christ, while picking and choosing what to obey?)
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Yes it is. However, I do not believe that I have to accept Catholic doctrine to be obedient to the church. I am obedient to Christ’s church not the Popes. The Church is the WHOLE body of Christ. The catholic church is only a part of the body of Christ.
 
protestantman said:
Yes this counts as testimony.

I have one question for you. What is the Body of Christ?
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The unity of all of the Church’s members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ.

To the extent that we are more perfectly in unity with His Church, the more perfectly we are part of the Body of Christ.
 
ni8_shadow said:
So you believe that you can lose your salvation…curious…how does one who accepts Christ…then sin’s his brains out gain back his justification?
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One who claims to accept Christ then continues to live in sin, is a liar. I can claim it all I want, but unless my works coincide with my claims, then my claims are false. If you are truly saved, then you cannot lose your salvation.
 
protestantman said:
Christ seems to opose your belief.
Matthew 7:15-23

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
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I’m not so sure I grasp your point unless you are accusing the Church to be a false prophet. To what gives you the authority to make such a judgment. Do I have the same authority to make the same judgment against you?
 
protestantman said:
Yes it is. However, I do not believe that I have to accept Catholic doctrine to be obedient to the church. I am obedient to Christ’s church not the Popes.
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This is a contradiction of Scripture itself, since we see that Christ placed Peter in charge of the Church (John 21:15-19), and history shows us that his lawful successors were the Popes of the Catholic Church.
The Church is the WHOLE body of Christ.
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This is true.
The catholic church is only a part of the body of Christ.
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The Catholic Church is what Christ founded. The rest of them came along many centuries later, in rebellion against what Christ had originally founded (and also against each other, but that is not relevant at the moment).
 
protestantman said:
One who claims to accept Christ then continues to live in sin, is a liar. I can claim it all I want, but unless my works coincide with my claims, then my claims are false. If you are truly saved, then you cannot lose your salvation.
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By your logic, everyone who is “truly saved” becomes incapable of sinning – because anyone who is not “truly saved” will continue to sin.

Do you sin, protestantman?

If so, then by your own admission, you are not truly saved.

If not, then you are a sinless man, which contradicts the Bible.

Which is it?
 
protestantman said:
No I am saying that they were indeed Fallible. Otherwise, they have no need for the Holy Spirit’s guidence.
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So then, you agree that the Holy Spirit used fallible men to write infallible books, by guarding them from teaching error, through some gift of protection/inspiration.
 
jmcrae said:
This is a contradiction of Scripture itself, since we see that Christ placed Peter in charge of the Church (John 21:15-19), and history shows us that his lawful successors were the Popes of the Catholic Church.

This is true.

The Catholic Church is what Christ founded. The rest of them came along many centuries later, in rebellion against what Christ had originally founded (and also against each other, but that is not relevant at the moment).
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This is not scripturally based, it is based on the catholic churches interepretation of scripture and their tradition. The Church of which God speaks, is not limited to catholosism.
 
protestantman said:
This is not scripturally based, it is based on the catholic churches interepretation of scripture and their tradition. The Church of which God speaks, is not limited to catholosism.
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An unbiased reading of history would seem to suggest otherwise.
 
wanner47 said:
By your logic, everyone who is “truly saved” becomes incapable of sinning – because anyone who is not “truly saved” will continue to sin.
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No this is not my logic. If you are truly saved, you cannot lose you salvation. However, if you fall into sin, you can be cut off from the GRACE of God. I am not saying that I am incapable of sin. I am saying that I do not live in sin. In other words I do not seek to satisfy my sin nature, but I am not flawless in my attempt to live by the spirit.
 
protestantman said:
No. For one, those who live in Christ are the church, not any man made institution. Jesus is the High Priest, and all who live in him are the church. This is the church that Christ created. The Catholic Church is an institution of man.
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We believe that the Church is an institution of Christ. What makes your authority greater than ours?
protestantman said:
Christ seems to opose your belief.
Matthew 7:15-23

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
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I’m not getting your point unless you are saying the Church is a false prophet. What gives you the authority to make such a judgment? What would preclude us from making this judgment of you?
From Ni8shadow: The Holy Spirit used fallible men to write infallible books.
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protestantman said:
This is an unbiblical statement. The Holy Spirit used sinfull man to write an infallable book. Are you saying that God can’t do that?
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Since you think Ni8shadow wrote something unbiblical and it appears the only difference is the use of the word “fallible” and “sinful”, can you explain the difference?
protestantman said:
So then your faith is in the Pope?
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I am starting to doubt your sincerity. We have told you numerous times that our Faith is in Jesus Christ. From this Faith, we trust that His Vicar is inspired by the Holy Spirit and accept this BECAUSE of our faith in Jesus Christ.
protestantman said:
Yes it is. However, I do not believe that I have to accept Catholic doctrine to be obedient to the church. I am obedient to Christ’s church not the Popes. The Church is the WHOLE body of Christ. The catholic church is only a part of the body of Christ.
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We think that the Body of Christ is greater than just His members. Now I understand why you think you have such infallible powers of interpretation. You are projecting His nature unto yourself.
protestantman said:
This is not supported by scripture.
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This is getting pretty old. If you want to accuse one of teaching an untrue claim from Scripture, you should provide more specifics.
protestantman said:
Yes this counts as testimony.

I have one question for you. What is the Body of Christ?
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The unity of all the Church’s members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ.

The more perfectly we are in union with the Church, the more perfectly we are in union with Christ.
 
ni8_shadow said:
So then, you agree that the Holy Spirit used fallible men to write infallible books, by guarding them from teaching error, through some gift of protection/inspiration.
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Yes to the first statement, but no to the rest. The Holy Spirit did not guard them from error. The Holy Spirit HIMSELF wrote scripture through fallible men. Just as he works through me, in spite of my fallibility.
 
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