A compelling non-Catholic argument

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How does the Holy Spirit work in someone who is living in Sin? Many here say that the Pope can turn from God and choose to live in sin. Yet they say that the Spirit continues to work through them. The Bible says that this is impossible. “A bad tree CANNOT bear good fruit”
Abraham was an adulterer, Moses was a murderer, St. Peter was a betrayer - God worked through these men.

The Pharisees were worse sinners, according to Jesus, than the prostitutes and the tax collectors; yet He said, “Obey them.”

St. Paul commanded the people to obey the lawful authorities, meaning Caesar Nero, etc. Jesus told Pilate (who was a pagan who worshipped many false gods) that his authority came to him from God.

So, evidently, God can and does work through sinners.
 
The scripture you use is not without question and is therefore inadmissable as inarguable evidence. Dont you think that, concidering its importants, Christ would have been more clear? Why did Peter never make this claim in scripture?
Careful. A Protestant who believes in a “self teaching” scripture can’t criticize the teacher for producing a different student without making himself infallible or contradicting himself can he? But this has been the Protestant tradition - toss out complete scriptural works and books that don’t support what you want to hear. Keep this pattern up and you will peel away the onion to find that all you have left of scripture is a mosaic of out of context phrases and salvation buzz-words that when juxtaposed together spell out little more than “Jesus saves - Alleluja brother!”. 😉
Are you proud of the history of the inquisition? This is an indisputable fact of the Catholic Churches history. How could such bad fruit come from something that is supposed to be protected from Satan?
Are you proud of the 100’s of thousands burned at the stake as heretics, witches, and pagans by supporters of Luther under Protestant kings and rulers? I guess you have not read the works coming out of Pope John Paul II’s open investigation into the inquisitions have you? You are also assuming that none of those who were found guilt under legitimate Church sponsored proceedings (not just mock trials by renegade individuals) were not guilty of profound heresy and even devil worship.

How can bad fruit come from somthing that is protected from Satan? How is it that heretics are called “fruit” when they willingly leave the Church or are excommunicated? By definition a person who leaves the Church is not a fruit of The Church. By definition each time The Church declares a sect heretical it prunes itself to improve the quality of the yield. I guess you are unaware of all the social laws and moral victories The Church has been instrumental in over the centuries.

Ask yourself how is it that some people go to hell? It’s called free will and suffering from pride and being a rebel against God. It’s been happening ever since Adam and Even ate the forbidden fruit and ever since Satan fell from grace. Pssst - I hate to tell you this but Jesus taught that ‘many are called but few enter the Kingdom of Heaven’ and ‘not everyone who calls me Lord Lord will enter heaven’.

James
 
Abraham was an adulterer, Moses was a murderer, St. Peter was a betrayer - God worked through these men.

The Pharisees were worse sinners, according to Jesus, than the prostitutes and the tax collectors; yet He said, “Obey them.”

St. Paul commanded the people to obey the lawful authorities, meaning Caesar Nero, etc. Jesus told Pilate (who was a pagan who worshipped many false gods) that his authority came to him from God.

So, evidently, God can and does work through sinners.
All of these examples where before the New Covenant. Moses was never freed from the bondage of sin, nor made alive in Christ. That is why Christ had to die. Now Christ uses men who are living in the Spirit, and never those who are living in sin. By the way, God also cursed all of these men and their decendants for these sins. To Abraham, the curse between his two sons. To Moses, the curse of never stepping foot in the Holy Land. To Peter, the curse of gulit and forever knowing that he betrayed his teacher. Peter, after Christ shed his blood, was able to escape his deserved fate. Only after Peter was living in the Spirit was he able to do Gods will and fullfill the great commision.
 
Why did God not use the same persusasive and submissive tactics with the Cananites? They had authority, yet they were driven out by Isreals armies.
You may have to take that up directly with God if you get past judgement and can enter into the beatific vision to ask Him.

My own perspective is that once the nation of the Jews was established it then became a matter of God choosing His people over His enemies. The Canaanites were absolutely corrupt and ungodly. All we can assume is that God is just and in His omniscience knew that the Canaanites were His enemies and were not part of His Divine Plan. But the Canaanites had NO authority over anyone but themselves and those they conquered. God Himself removed any right of the Canaanites to claim any authority over His people since they were absolutely amoral. That is God’s decision since the Jews answered only to God when they became His. They were above all reproach to anyone but God and had to be obedient to God and submit to His will. God deliberately decided that the Jews would be subordinate to no other nation as long as they remained bound to their covenant with Him.

James
 
All of these examples where before the New Covenant. Moses was never freed from the bondage of sin, nor made alive in Christ. That is why Christ had to die. Now Christ uses men who are living in the Spirit, and never those who are living in sin.
Which men would these be, since as you guys are so fond of quoting, “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” (And if it is possible to be righteous, then why can’t my parish priest be righteous (he is definitely innocent, from the human point of view), or our current Pope, who as far as I know has never committed any public sin?)
Only after Peter was living in the Spirit was he able to do Gods will and fullfill the great commision.
At least we agree that St. Peter was given the Great Commission, and fulfilled it. 👍
 
You may have to take that up directly with God if you get past judgement and can enter into the beatific vision to ask Him.

My own perspective is that once the nation of the Jews was established it then became a matter of God choosing His people over His enemies. The Canaanites were absolutely corrupt and ungodly. All we can assume is that God is just and in His omniscience knew that the Canaanites were His enemies and were not part of His Divine Plan. But the Canaanites had NO authority over anyone but themselves and those they conquered. God Himself removed any right of the Canaanites to claim any authority over His people since they were absolutely amoral. That is God’s decision since the Jews answered only to God when they became His. They were above all reproach to anyone but God and had to be obedient to God and submit to His will. God deliberately decided that the Jews would be subordinate to no other nation as long as they remained bound to their covenant with Him.

James
So your saying that it was Gods will right? Where was Isreal’s free will? It was the Isrealites who wanted to return to Egypt.
 
Which men would these be, since as you guys are so fond of quoting, “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” (And if it is possible to be righteous, then why can’t my parish priest be righteous (he is definitely innocent, from the human point of view), or our current Pope, who as far as I know has never committed any public sin?)
All have sinned, but those who belive in Christ are made righteous and Holy in the sight of God. This is the power of the blood of Christ. If your Parish priest is living in the Spirit, than he is deemed righteous. This not of his own doing, but by the grace of God.
At least we agree that St. Peter was given the Great Commission, and fulfilled it. 👍
Yup, but so were all the other apostles, and deciples. If you truly believe the scriptures, you are also called to sew generously, and bee the salt and the light.
 
i think what he is saying is that the concept of papal infalliblity is not in Scripture. I think even catholics would agree that Peter was not looked upon as being infallible. God did use him mightly but even that does not translate into infallibly for him or later popes.
Why don’t you let him answer for himself? I’d like to hear what HE says he means, not what you say he means.

He said that one of his problems with the concept of papal infallibility was that the word “infallibility” doesn’t appear in Scripture. Well, neither does the word “Trinity.” If he’s going to use that criterion to reject papal infallibility, then he must also use that same criterion to reject the Trinity.

Papal infallibility – as well as the Trinity – are shown in Scripture (which previous posters have displayed) even if the specific words don’t appear. Same concept.
No protestant is claiming this that i know of.
Protestantman seems to be. 🤷
 
So your saying that it was Gods will right? Where was Isreal’s free will? It was the Isrealites who wanted to return to Egypt.
Israel bond itself to God through the covenant in exchange for the promise for great blessings. This restricted their collective free will (which is what submitting to authority is all about) to conform to God’s will but still gave them the latitude to exercise free will in all areas of life as long as it was consistent with God’s Law.

You keep evading my question. With more questions.

Let me repeat. By what scriptural authority do Protestants protest and seperate themselves from The Church and teach their own human doctrine?

James
 
Protestantman, I am very disappointed. I originally thought you were living in the Spirit and spoke well of you but it appears I just threw pearls at your feet for which you have no eyes to see and ears to hear. Your original tone appears to be just sheeps clothing.
I do not harbour anger or resentment toward my catholic brothers. **Despite all persecution **I will continue to pray for all of you. It does not seem that the hostility will fade away until Christ returns and reveals all. Christ alone is the importance of the New Testament. Everything else is between the Holy Spirit and the Individual.
Why has the Catholic church condemned so many to torture and death? When did scripture make torture a tool to make people conform?
So what specifically is the prayer you say for me?

I gave you at least two chances to apologize for the slanderous lies that began with Peter de Rosa who also claims that Christ did not rise from the dead. You so hate the Catholic Church that you couldn’t even repudiate such a vile source just because he says things with which you agree.

A person who is of Christ will apologize for committing false witness. Your refusal says alot about your heart and its separation from Christ.

I chuckle at your feeling of persecution. You come to our house and spread lies and you expect to be received with welcoming arms.
Code:
 Yes the inquisition is over, but the church continues to persecute anyone who challenges their authority.  Are you proud of the history of the inquisition? This is an indisputable fact of the Catholic Churches history. How could such bad fruit come from something that is supposed to be protected from Satan?
Are you saying that the Catholic Chuch is a bad tree? Answer this question so that we can once and for all strip you of your sheeps clothing.
I did not use any of those writings to establish my own belief on the matter. I do not hold Hate, Lies, or Calumny, as a basis for my arguments. As for the above, these are from my own belief. Despite that, there is still left a bleak history of the Catholic Church. Why did some popes recant in fear of Death? Stephen chose death over recanting, as did Peter, John, Paul, and many many others. Can you explain how Pope Liberius was just in his actions? He only recanted after the Emperor died. This seems like his faith was weaker than his fear.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Liberius
Well why did you use this hateful source? It is hard to the use as anything but motivated by hate. Expecially when you continue to repeat the accusations.
How does the Holy Spirit work in someone who is living in Sin? Many here say that the Pope can turn from God and choose to live in sin. Yet they say that the Spirit continues to work through them. The Bible says that this is impossible. “A bad tree CANNOT bear good fruit”
I guess you are saying the Catholic Church is a bad tree.

I only respond to this thread to make it known to all the vileness of your voice.

Titus: 1:15-16 “To the clean all things are clean, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is clean; in fact, both their minds and their consciences are tainted. They claim to know God, but by their deeds they deny him. They are vile and disobedient and unqualified for any good deed.”
 
wanner47;3411653]
Originally Posted by justasking4
i think what he is saying is that the concept of papal infalliblity is not in Scripture. I think even catholics would agree that Peter was not looked upon as being infallible. God did use him mightly but even that does not translate into infallibly for him or later popes.
wanner47
Why don’t you let him answer for himself? I’d like to hear what HE says he means, not what you say he means.
All posts are for the public to respond to. If you want it private then email him privately.
He said that one of his problems with the concept of papal infallibility was that the word “infallibility” doesn’t appear in Scripture. Well, neither does the word “Trinity.” If he’s going to use that criterion to reject papal infallibility, then he must also use that same criterion to reject the Trinity.
Papal infallibility – as well as the Trinity – are shown in Scripture (which previous posters have displayed) even if the specific words don’t appear. Same concept.
The Trinity has nothing to do with this argument. Each must doctrine must stand on its own. It has already been demonstrated that papal infalliblity is not only in Scripture but not in most of church history either.
Protestantman seems to be. 🤷
 
Where in the Bible does it say that doctrine must “stand alone?” And while your at it…tell me where it also states that the OT and NT together are the sole rule of faith for the Christian. Don’t want any verses stating that scripture is inspired or useful, that we agree on…but give a verse that states scripture alone is the sole rule of faith. (off topic? yes, but then again, this thread has been for a looooong time now).
 
Why are they not protected?
Bishops, priests, and catechists can enjoy the charism of infalliblity to the extent that they are perfectly united with Jesus, and therefore, to the Church. Jesus made this promise to the Church, and all who cling to Her fall under that protection.

Individuals have free will, however, and are able to reject Jesus at any time.
Where do we find the “Chair of Peter” in Scripture?
Remember when Jesus spoke about the “Seat of Moses”? This refers to the authority to teach according to God’s will. Jesus took this “Seat” from the Pharisees, who did not use it properly,and gave it to the disciples. He commissioned them to “teach all that I have commanded”. To Peter He gave the specific charge to “strengthen the brethren”, and the Keys of the Kingdom.
If i understand you, then neither was Mary.
Yeah, I didn’t agree with that either. We can all be protected by grace from sinning. Most of us fail to walk inthe grace that is available, and fall short in many ways.
 
There is NO scripture that uses the world infallible.
No. There is no word “Trinity”, nothing about the hypostatic union of Christ, no index for the books that belong in the Bible, and no dispensation to observe the Sabbath on Sunday. However, we all agree on these things, which proves that not all of Christian Teaching is found in scripture.

What we do see is Jesus promising that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church, and that the Spirit will guide the Apostles into “all truth”.
Scripture does not prove any of your claims of papal infallibility. Papal infallibility is not supported by scripture.
Most especially when it is read through an anit-Catholic lens.
We read it differently! 👍
Unless you can shed light on a verse where either Peter or Christ specifically makes this claim clear.
What makes me think that you would not accept the Catholic point of view on these verses? :hmmm:
Papal infallibility is an institution of man, to serve man. It serves no purpouse for Christ.
Really? When did it start, and what purpose does it serve?

Jesus must have been absent minded the day He gave Peter the Keys, and also again the day He asked Peter to feed and care for the sheep.
The only infallable man to walk this earth was Christ. Infallibility can only come from the righteous. Who on this earth is righteous? According to scripture that is no one.
This is true, which is why we know that the gift comes from God. Jesus stated that He would be with the Church to the end of the Age. Only HE is able to protect the Church from error. Perhaps you are confusing infallibility with impeccability, which would explain a lot.
Therefore, to claim papal infallibility is a perversion of scripture. It does not coincide with the nature of Christ, who presented himself as a servant.
Do you imagine somehow that the Pope is not a servant? If so, why do you suppose that he signs his encyclicals “servant of the servants of God”?
It does not coincide with scripture, that states that Christ is our mediator to the Father. With Christ at the head of the church, there is no need for any other authority. All Christ wanted of the Apostles, were servants and teachers.
If this was all He wanted, why did He give Peter Keys,a nd commission Him to guard the flock? I think it is an erroneous conclusion that, since Christ is the Head of the Church, there is no need for earthly authority. This attitude is also opposite of what Scripture and th eearly fathers said about authority.
Some of you say that your understanding of Papal infallibility has evolved. When has Christ ever imparted truth in such a manner?
Many times!
If you trully have faith in Christ, then why do you look to the Pope for answers. This is evidence that your faith lies in the churches teachings, and not with the personal guidence of the Holy Spirit. This also directly conflicts with scripture.
No, the HS is the soul of the Church, and is completely in unity with Christ, who is the Head of the church. That is why there is no dichotomy between where the HS leads, the Scripture, the TEachings of Jesus, and the infallible doctrines of the Church. They all come from the same source.
Code:
 Any man who can prove that the scripture specifically states otherwise, please do so now to clear all doubt.
You are proceeding from a false assumption that there is a difference between what the Church teaches and the guidance of the HS. There is no dichotomy there.
Code:
I pray that one day the Catholic Church would stop persecuting those who do not believe in the supremecy of the Pope.
]

Your prayers have been answered! The Church does not persecute Protestants, and the Church does not hold to the notion of “supremacy”. This is a concept that comes from a secular world view of leadership, and has no place in the Kingdom of Heaven.
 
If Luther was really deserving of excommunication, then he was a man who was living in sin. If this is true than nothing could ever come from that man of any value.
This is also a false conclusion. Many things of value come from people living in sin. Even the Caiaphus prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation.
For it is impossible for a bad tree to bear good fruit. Yet the protestant churches continue to have spiritual growth and evidence of the fruits of the spirit. So if you truly believe in the doctrine of the Catholic church, you must also believe that all protestants are false prophets,
Protestants bear fruit to the extent that they live according to the Teachings of Jesus, which are found most completely in the Catholic Church. To the extent that Teaching is rejected, they are improperly joined to the body.
(Protestants) … living in sin, and spend an eternity in hell, unless we recant and join the Catholic faith.
As I said, there is ONLY ONE Church, and all who are members of Christ are members of his ONE BODY. Catholics are urged not to judge the eternal souls of others, and to focus on working out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Only God decides who is going to spend an eternity in hell, and only God can see the heart, and whether it is sinful or just.
Are you so convinced that you could say that this is true? I say that I believe in the son of God, who is the word of God, the Lamb of God, the One true God. But if I dont believe in the apostolic succesion, then I must be a heretic, right?
No. To qualify as a heretic you would have to have known and believed the truth, then rejected it. Your faith can better be described as a product of heresy, since these heretical beliefs were passed on to you as true from the beginning. 😃
Code:
 The very fact that the Catholic Church seats themselves at the head of the table is enough evidence for me, that it is not modeled in the image of Christ.
What does this mean, exactly?
I directly rebuke the teaching of Papal infallibility.
Everyone has free will. Each person has the freedom to rebuke the Apostolic Teaching.
Code:
In reality protestants and catholics are on the same side.  We all believe in Jesus Christ.  Worldy arguments keep us severed from one another. How is this biblicle?  How is this Christ like?
I agree with you on this one. Why not stop arguing and rebuking, and make peace with us? :confused:
 
All posts are for the public to respond to. If you want it private then email him privately.
You weren’t merely responding to the post. You were speaking *for *Protestantman – who, I’ve noticed, has chosen to ignore my questions. I would like to hear what Protestman’s answers would be, instead of having you give his answers for him.
The Trinity has nothing to do with this argument. Each must doctrine must stand on its own. It has already been demonstrated that papal infalliblity is not only in Scripture but not in most of church history either.
The Trinity does have something to do with this argument because it’s another example of a doctrine that is not explicity stated in Scripture but can be inferred from it – more importantly, it’s a doctrine that meets the aforementioned criteria yet is accepted by Protestants.

Actually, the exact opposite has been demonstrated.
 
This scripture does not use the words infallible, teaching, or doctrine.

Or Trinity.

What was the purpouse of the Inquisition? What was done when a person asnwered in an unsatisfactory way? Like Joan of Arc for instance. When did scripture give the church this authority?

Probably the same purpose as St. Thomas. You just can’t get past this, can you? If it were a war, and the totals were added up, the Protestants won. Big time.
 
i think what he is saying is that the concept of papal infalliblity is not in Scripture. I think even catholics would agree that Peter was not looked upon as being infallible. God did use him mightly but even that does not translate into infallibly for him or later popes.
I think you don’t understand the doctrine of infallibity. It is not the same as impeccability. All the Apostles taught infallibly. It is the Teaching that is infallible, not the person. Jesus promised to lead the Apostles into “all truth”.

Here is what the same St. John Chrysostom has to say about Saint John the Evangelist:

“For the son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master’s bosom with much confidence, this man comes forward to us now…. By this Apostle stand the powers from above, marveling at the beauty of his soul, and his understanding, and the bloom of that virtue by which he drew unto him Christ Himself, and obtained the grace of the Spirit. For he hath made ready his soul, as some well-fashioned and jeweled lyre with strings of gold, and yielded it for the utterance of something great and sublime to the Spirit” (St. John Chrysostom, First Homily on the Gospel of St. John).

“Were John about to converse with us, and to say to us words of his own, we needs must describe his family, his country, and his education. But since it is not he, but God by him, that speaks to mankind, it seems to me superfluous and distracting to enquire into these matters. And yet even thus it is not superfluous, but even very necessary. For when you have learned who he was, and from whence, who his parents, and what his character, and then hear his voice and all his heavenly wisdom, then you shall know right well that these (doctrines) belong not to him, but to the Divine power stirring his soul…. Not so this fisherman; for all he saith is infallible; and standing as it were upon a rock, he never shifts his ground. For since he has been thought worthy to be in the most secret places, and has the Lord of all speaking within him, he is subject to nothing that is human” (St. John Chrysostom, Second Homily on the Gospel of St. John). ]

It is the Teaching that is held to be without error, not the individual. We can clearly see in scripture that Peter was not “perfect” always in action.
Where is the “chair of Moses” used in the writings of the apostles (NT) as a basis for infalliblity?
Jesus commands the people to “practice and observe whatever they tell you” BECAUSE they sit on Moses’ seat. Why would He command people to walk in error? Would you not agree that all the commandments of Jesus are infallible?

Matt 23:1-4
2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.
If you look at Paul’s description of church structure in Ephesians and I Timothy for example he never appeals to a chair of Moses or of Peter.
Paul appeals to the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, upon whom the Church is built. If you believe that Paul is not in unity with Peter and the other Apostles you have been misled.
Code:
It is one thing to have an authority in the church (protestants would agree with this) but it is another to claim this authority is also infallible.
What good is an authority that errs? Jesus promised that He would not leave the Apostles “orphaned”. That means that He meant what He said when He promised to be with them until the end of the Age.
 
Scripture does not prove any of your claims of papal infallibility. Papal infallibility is not supported by scripture. Unless you can shed light on a verse where either Peter or Christ specifically makes this claim clear.
The claim that infallibility is not in Scripture is incorrect. Scripture does indeed support the doctrine of infallibility:
  • Matt. 16:17–19; 23:1–3; 28:19–20
  • Luke 22:32
  • John 16:13; 21:15–17
  • 1 Tim. 3:15
So do the fathers. Just a couple of examples are Cyprian, writing in about 256, asking “Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?” (Letters 59 [55], 14), and in the fifth century, Augustine succinctly captured the ancient attitude when he remarked, “Rome has spoken; the case is concluded” (Sermons 131, 10).”

As St. Paul wrote in 1 Tim. 3:15, the Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth.

If Christ is the foundation of religious truth, then the Church is God’s own spokesman - As Jesus said; “He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Luke 10:16

To deny the infallibility of the Church, is to deny the infallibility of Christ, which He passed to the Church through apostles.
Some of you say that your understanding of Papal infallibility has evolved. When has Christ ever imparted truth in such a manner?
Well, the apostles would probably be one example of learning truth gradually. After all the time they spent with Jesus teaching them, they still didn’t know (or remember) everything to know by the time Jesus had ascended (until they received the fullness of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, anyway.) It is worth noting that the Catholic Church teaches that all revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, although understanding of all of those truths may not be understood yet.
So if you truly believe in the doctrine of the Catholic church, you must also believe that all protestants are false prophets, living in sin, and spend an eternity in hell, unless we recant and join the Catholic faith. Are you so convinced that you could say that this is true? I say that I believe in the son of God, who is the word of God, the Lamb of God, the One true God. But if I dont believe in the apostolic succesion, then I must be a heretic, right?
No. Suffice it to say that you simply need to learn what the Catholic Church actually teaches, not what Jack Chick & other, equally intentionally misinformed anti-catholics claim.

Recantation of heresy is a must if corrected. Refusal to recant it results in the person’s excommunication, which is a direct result of the person’s intentional action (as was Luther’s. He left the Church, he wasn’t just “kicked out for not toeing the line”.)
In reality protestants and catholics are on the same side. We all believe in Jesus Christ. Worldy arguments keep us severed from one another. How is this biblicle? How is this Christ-like?
That is actually the best statement in this whole post! 👍

Yes, Protestants & Catholics ARE on the same side, and are brothers & sisters in Christ. Protestants have partial knowledge of the truth, and this seems to be based on the issue of authority.

Protestants refuse Biblical & historic evidence that support the authority of the Church,

Treating the Bible as a collection of self-contained, individual verses as “proof texts” leads not only to this rejection of authority, but of many doctrines that certainly are biblical, & an embrace of traditions that actually support this kind of selective reading of doctrine.

Chris
 
All posts are for the public to respond to. If you want it private then email him privately.
You silly. The comment was about YOU, and you won’t let anyone send you PM’s or email! I was refuting the statement that was made about you because I have read in your posts that you believe differently than what was stated.
The Trinity has nothing to do with this argument. Each must doctrine must stand on its own. It has already been demonstrated that papal infalliblity is not only in Scripture but not in most of church history either.
The complaint was that the word “infallibility” was not found in the Scriptures, so I pointed out several other orthodox Christian doctrines that do not have corresponding words in the scripture. Just because it is not found in scripture does not mean it didn’t happen, or is not true.

We read it differently. 😉 Catholics see this in scripture because we have received the Apostolic Teaching.
 
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