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justasking4
Guest
What specific errors are you referring to?
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mikeledes
Guest
Having been raised in a Protestant environment - specifically a Calvinist one - you have automatically accepted certain assumptions as true (i.e. Sola Scriptura, etc.) For example, you have accepted that the “66” books in your Bible are inspired. On what basis? Are you certain that every single book is inspired? How do you know that the men that God used to assemble the Bible got it right?
Studying the history of Christianity will show that the Bible did not fall from the sky neatly bound.
God Bless,
Michael
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deanarrca
Guest
Believe it or not non-denoms are denominations- They are just single Church denominations. They usually always have a set tenets of beliefs. The basics that those that go to to that church are suppose to believe and espouse. They usually always have for visitors, and for those that want to become members of that Church, some document outlining “This is What We Believe”.And talk about disunity with the body of Christ - I have seen more disunity among non denominational churches than any other group because when one or a few members disagree with their non-denom Church or a particular Pastor they just go out and start their own non-denom church. Split after Split after Split.
For example I know a nom-denom church around the corner that just had a split because a group decided that pre-trib rapture was not Biblical and a more correct and Biblical interpretation is Pre-Wrath rapture. (look that one up on the net)
I know Churches that after splits refuse to fellowship with other groups over things like, instrumental music in Church, wether a Church should have a kitchen.
But you say oh we agree on the basics well in many cases they don’t.
Also Non-Denom Churches (and others) seem to revolve around the Pastor- get a good likeable and charismatic Pastor the church prospers, but then he leaves and the Church crumbles.
I love the Unity of The Catholic Church. I Love it because of that unity they are effective in so many charities. (Talk about Good Fruit) They are the Largest Charitable Organization I think in the World. I love the fact that I can go anywhere in the World and the Catholic Churches will all be reading the same scripture readings for that day.
I personally think the reason there is so much division in the Protestant world is that it is a very savvy tactic of Satan- Divide and conquer.
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mikeledes
Guest
I’m not judging you. That’s not my intent. I’m simply stating a fact of life. Everyone is influenced by the environment they are raised in. No man is an island. You’re not born with knowledge. You acquire it through personal experience and through your parents. Religious beliefs and values are first acquired through one’s parents. So if you’re raised in a Protestant household, you will acquire Protestant beliefs and values, even if you repudiate them later on in life. If your parents are Calvinists, the theology you will be taught is Calvinism.
God Bless,
Michael
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mikeledes
Guest
If all Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit in interpreting the Bible , then why do your conclusions - based on guidance from the Holy Spirit - different from other Christians who also claim guidance from the Holy Spirit?
God Bless,
Michael
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justasking4
Guest
Good question. The problem is that the Holy Spirit’s role is not to interpret the scriptures for believers. Interpretation involves getting into the text and to study it. Look at Paul’ admonition to Timothy 4:15-16 where he writes–
Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
There is no passage in scripture that i can think where believers are to depend on the HS to interpret the scriptures for them.
What i find amazing are the different interpretations in the catholic church on all kinds of things. I would think that with a infallible interpreter this would be impossible but its not…
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jmcrae
Guest
You are not required to stay excommunicated, though. The process of returning to the Church (or converting for the first time, for non-Christians) is open to everyone in the whole world.
If your complaint is that you have to be Protestant because you can’t be Catholic, then complain no more - simply go to your nearest Catholic Church and sign up for convert classes or private instruction, or whatever they have available, to restore you to the Church and its Sacraments.
It’s true that the first Protestants were excommuncated for their heresies, but there is no reason for modern day Protestants to have to accept that verdict for themselves. They have the option to return, if they want to accept it.
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wanner47
Guest
Start a new thread about the article in question and we’ll be happy to point them out to you.
In the meantime, this article is a good start, as is this blog entry. Both elaborate on the numerous errors in the article in question.
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jmcrae
Guest
It is possible that you are not. While invincible ignorance coupled with good intentions can potentially save those who are outside of the Church, it is not the most reliable mode of travel.
I believe that the best chance for salvation lies in being a full and active member of the Catholic Church, who is fully obedient to all of its precepts, and believes all that it teaches, to the best of one’s understanding and ability. This is what Jesus Himself has set up for us, and I believe that we should not reject His gift, in the belief or assumption that all we need to do is call on His name, without doing any of the things that He has commanded us to do, such as be members of His Church, or participate in His Sacraments.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
The Catholic Church totally agrees that The Word (Jesus Christ) is the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made.
Catholics though reject that the Bible is the whole of The Word. Jesus Christ is infinite and the Bible is finite. It does not contain all that Jesus is.
Catholics believe that the Church is part of the Word, believers are part of the Word, and the Bible is part of the Word. Together they form a greater vision/revelation of Jesus but none stand by their own as the definitive and complete Word.
But the historical fact according to Scripture is that Pentecost (creation of the Church) preceded both the penning of the New Testament and its Canonization. Furthermore, it is a historical fact that the first proclamation of the written Scripture was done in the Mass.
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mikeledes
Guest
Good question. The problem is that the Holy Spirit’s role is not to interpret the scriptures for believers. Interpretation involves getting into the text and to study it. Look at Paul’ admonition to Timothy 4:15-16 where he writes–
Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
There is no passage in scripture that i can think where believers are to depend on the HS to interpret the scriptures for them.
What i find amazing are the different interpretations in the catholic church on all kinds of things. I would think that with a infallible interpreter this would be impossible but its not…
And yet Protestants are somehow able to identify Catholic teachings - though they often distort them - and know what Catholic authoritative sources to quote.The same cannot be said about Protestants. If I argue against a Calvinist and use the phrase OSAS, they might get offended because they consider that antinomian and prefer “perseverance of the saints”. You realize that there are two different versions of eternal security? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints
There are fundamental differences between a Calvinist and an Arminian. To the point where many Calvinists have accused Arminians of heresy and even of worshipping a different God. There are *fundamental * differences among Arminians. The OSAS Arminians accuse Historic Arminians (Methodists, etc.) of contradicting justification by faith alone for teaching that salvation can be lost. The differences among Protestants can never compare with the “differences” among Catholics.
God Bless,
Michael
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justasking4
Guest
This is the first i have see “the first proclamation of the written Scripture was done in the Mass.” Do you have reference for this?
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justasking4
Guest
How can there be any differences among Catholics at all if it is the church that the HS is guiding, has the fullness of the truth, the only church that has the authority to interpret the Scriptures etc?
The same cannot be said about Protestants. If I argue against a Calvinist and use the phrase OSAS, they might get offended because they consider that antinomian and prefer “perseverance of the saints”. You realize that there are two different versions of eternal security? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints
There are fundamental differences between a Calvinist and an Arminian. To the point where many Calvinists have accused Arminians of heresy and even of worshipping a different God. There are *fundamental * differences among Arminians. The OSAS Arminians accuse Historic Arminians (Methodists, etc.) of contradicting justification by faith alone for teaching that salvation can be lost. The differences among Protestants can never compare with the “differences” among Catholics.
God Bless,
Michael
Has it not been said that only the Roman Catholic church is unified?
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SCALCO
Guest
What different interpretations?Good question. The problem is that the Holy Spirit’s role is not to interpret the scriptures for believers. Interpretation involves getting into the text and to study it. Look at Paul’ admonition to Timothy 4:15-16 where he writes–
Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
There is no passage in scripture that i can think where believers are to depend on the HS to interpret the scriptures for them.
What i find amazing are the different interpretations in the catholic church on all kinds of things. I would think that with a infallible interpreter this would be impossible but its not…
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jmcrae
Guest
Yes, since the time of the Essenes, about 200 years before the time of Christ, until now, God’s faithful ones have always had a 73 book Old Testament.
First of all, it was certain Jews who were also rejecting the New Testament (they wanted to forbid Christianity, so they got rid of everything in the Old Testament that directly prophesies about Jesus, and that refers to life after death), and then it was certain Protestants, for reasons that I have never understood. (Not all Protestants reject the Deuterocanon of the Old Testament, though. And of course the Orthodox, and other non-Catholics who were not part of the Protestant reformation (such as the Waldensians, etc.) also continue to use the 73-book Old Testament.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
Well, it shows the difficulty in non-Catholic sources reporting accurately on the Church. While doubt there is ill-intent*, it shows how little non-Catholics understand the Papacy, the nature of the authority that subsists in the person of the Pope and the distinction with that of the individual who happens to be Pope.
- But you never know when one reflects on the first articles which came out when the Pope discussed “No salvation comes outside the Church”, the resistance to correct the error when urged by the Church, and the fact that correction mostly came after clarity was provided from an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi.
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SCALCO
Guest
I just put forth this question in another thread, but I see it would fit nicely hear.
In regards to the truth, the church, with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, is intended to proclaim the truth with no uncertainty. I am curious to hear a non-Catholic christian perspective of this.
If each individual claims to receive an interpretation directly from the Holy Spirit, but are all proclaiming different things and contradicting each other, can we still have “the church is the pillar and support of the truth”? If this is an invisible church united in spirit and truth, where do we see it supporting and proclaiming the truth? Where is communion celebrated? Where do I get baptised? Who are my leaders? This list of questions could go on and on. If THE church is to be united in truth and spirit, it would be a contradiction to say God intended the church to have such uncertainty.
I only see one system where this works, where the church is assisted by the Holy Spirit with only one interpretation and has teaching authority.
In regards to the truth, the church, with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, is intended to proclaim the truth with no uncertainty. I am curious to hear a non-Catholic christian perspective of this.
If each individual claims to receive an interpretation directly from the Holy Spirit, but are all proclaiming different things and contradicting each other, can we still have “the church is the pillar and support of the truth”? If this is an invisible church united in spirit and truth, where do we see it supporting and proclaiming the truth? Where is communion celebrated? Where do I get baptised? Who are my leaders? This list of questions could go on and on. If THE church is to be united in truth and spirit, it would be a contradiction to say God intended the church to have such uncertainty.
I only see one system where this works, where the church is assisted by the Holy Spirit with only one interpretation and has teaching authority.
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mikeledes
Guest
Can you give an example of these differences?
There is always room for debate in areas that are not very clear. However, the teaching authority of the Church establishes clear parameters.
God Bless,
Michael
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justasking4
Guest
Revelations 12:1 — some say the woman is Mary while others say its the church or something else.
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justasking4
Guest
Revelations 12. Is the woman Mary or someone-something else?
Was Peter the founder and 1st pope of Rome?
Must a person belong to the catholic church to be saved?
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