A compelling non-Catholic argument

[protestantman]

If all Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit in interpreting the Bible , then why do your conclusions - based on guidance from the Holy Spirit - different from other Christians who also claim guidance from the Holy Spirit?

God Bless,
Michael

Not all who make these claims are actually true. Infact, many will say that it was revealed, when it is actually just their opinion. It is also important to note, that if the Holy Spirit has revealed anything, it is True. Even if the HS appears to contradict itself, it is a missunderstanding on our part. It is important for me to study scripture daily. This way, I am more closely connected to the source of truth.

 

[Church_Militant]

What were the three pillars of the reformation?

Not what, who. Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli.

This is also true of your church. No one in the NT church or even the church for the 1st three centuries held to the marian doctrines or celibate leadership.

Untrue.

Celibate clergy goes directly to Our Lord and the apostles.
Matthew 19:10-12
"10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry.11 Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it. "

Ist Corinthians 7:6-9
“6 But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment. 7 For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that. 8 But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I. 9 But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt.”

Revelation 14:1-5

1: Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
2: And I heard a voice from heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; the voice I heard was like the sound of harpers playing on their harps,
3: and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth.
4: It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste; it is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes; these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb,
5: and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless.

The Marian doctrines were dogmatically affirmed because they have been held so long, and since they contradict no scripture then there is no problem.

Here’s some of my thinking on these doctrines.

The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Reasons Why I Believe in The Blessed Virgin Mary’s Assumption

 

[protestantman]

You are not required to stay excommunicated, though. The process of returning to the Church (or converting for the first time, for non-Christians) is open to everyone in the whole world.

If your complaint is that you have to be Protestant because you can’t be Catholic, then complain no more - simply go to your nearest Catholic Church and sign up for convert classes or private instruction, or whatever they have available, to restore you to the Church and its Sacraments.

It’s true that the first Protestants were excommuncated for their heresies, but there is no reason for modern day Protestants to have to accept that verdict for themselves. They have the option to return, if they want to accept it.

Yet, I would have to abandon my disbelief of certain doctrines. Thus I am not welcomed freely, but I must accept the rules of the house.

 

[protestantman]

The Catholic Church totally agrees that The Word (Jesus Christ) is the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made.

Catholics though reject that the Bible is the whole of The Word. Jesus Christ is infinite and the Bible is finite. It does not contain all that Jesus is.

Catholics believe that the Church is part of the Word, believers are part of the Word, and the Bible is part of the Word. Together they form a greater vision/revelation of Jesus but none stand by their own as the definitive and complete Word.
.

So Jesus is the combination of the Church, the Bible, and believers? How could this be if the Word was with God in the beginning, when the church did not exist?

 

[protestantman]

I just put forth this question in another thread, but I see it would fit nicely hear.

In regards to the truth, the church, with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, is intended to proclaim the truth with no uncertainty. I am curious to hear a non-Catholic christian perspective of this.

If each individual claims to receive an interpretation directly from the Holy Spirit, but are all proclaiming different things and contradicting each other, can we still have “the church is the pillar and support of the truth”? If this is an invisible church united in spirit and truth, where do we see it supporting and proclaiming the truth? Where is communion celebrated? Where do I get baptised? Who are my leaders? This list of questions could go on and on. If THE church is to be united in truth and spirit, it would be a contradiction to say God intended the church to have such uncertainty.

I only see one system where this works, where the church is assisted by the Holy Spirit with only one interpretation and has teaching authority.

Many who claim “interpretation from the HS” are false prophets. Weed out the false prophets, and you will see the truth.

 

[protestantman]

History to me is the fallible way in which humans try to make sense of what has happened. History begins with our immediate family, then goes back and beyond to our ancestors and even further back. Some history may not be exact, but it does give us a link to the thoughts and beliefs that have helped us form a chain down to the present. If you ignore history, you have only a half life and half of the whole. Peace.

If history is fallible, and the Holy Spirit is infallible, why not rely on the Holy Spirit.

 

[Church_Militant]

My point is that my seperation was not one that was willing. In order for me to rejoin the Catholic church, I would have to accept certain things that I do not believe. I would never be allowed to take communion because I do not agree with the True Presence in the Eucharist.

The reconciliation is for you to deal with.

You are scripturally dead wrong to contradict and oppose the Eucharistic Real Presence and therefore exactly correct that you are not allowed to take communion in a Catholic Church, even as you would have been denied it in the early church. Again, you need to do your own history homework.

No, it is sola scriptura.

Which is the gravest and most fundamental error of all the so called reformation. Search the forum and find the threads where it has been discussed at very great length.

Prove it to me in scripture.

No problem.1st Corinthians 1:11 For it hath been signified unto me, my brethren, of you, by them that are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

2nd Corinthians 12:20 For I fear lest perhaps when I come I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found by you such as you would not. Lest perhaps contentions, envyings, animosities, dissensions, detractions, whisperings, swellings, seditions, be among you.

Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects,

1st Timothy 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but sick about questions and strifes of words; from which arise envies, contentions, blasphemies, evil suspicions,

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain.

James 3:14 But if you have bitter zeal, and there be contentions in your hearts; glory not, and be not liars against the truth.

James 4:1 From whence are wars and contentions among you? Are they not hence, from your concupiscences, which war in your members?

I guess forgiveness here is out of the question. I should probably note that.

Already dealt with, but perhaps you do not realize the level of hurt your actions caused and the difficulty that we may have in trusting you again.

For which I apologized. The Bible sas that scripture ONLY makes sense when the Holy Spirit makes the true interpretation made known. This is where all sound teaching begins. If you read a book and do not understand it, do you go to the author, or to his biggest fan?

You’ll need to cite the chapter and verse that says that because I think you’re expressing an interpretation and not what the scripture actually says.

The Bible is complete. So the only History that concerns my faith is the 66 books of History that I already have.

Not the one you have if it only has 66 books. Again you are dead wrong based upon some teachings you have bought into. You can search the forums and find threads where we discuss this because it’s off topic here.

Outside of faith, history is a way to learn from other peoples mistakes.

A cynical and uncharitable way to look at it, but as with many wrong statements, it contains a measure of truth.

Apply that thinking to the so-called reformation.

 

[Church_Militant]

Who is responsible for the change, and was it always 73 up to that point? Gods punishment will be severe for those responsible for either adding or taking away from scripture. So either way, someone added 7 books or took them away.

Oh, you’re correct there.

The fact is that the OT that Our Lord had contained the 7 books and the Jews in 99 AD and the so-called reformers in the 16th century removed them.

You indict your own sources there.

 

[Church_Militant]

Not this protestant. I have never even read the 95 thesis. I try

not to preconcieve anything when I read the Bible. I do not study Luther or Calvin to find biblical interpretation.Yet you reject more ancient and more knowledgeable sources.

Have you ever even read the Deuterocanonical books of the Bible?

 

[elt1956]

If history is fallible, and the Holy Spirit is infallible, why not rely on the Holy Spirit.

Because sometimes I don’t understand what the Holy Spirit is telling me personally. And I don’t believe any individual, other than the Pope, can claim infallibility in proclaiming doctrines of Faith and Morals, or beliefs, for that matter. Peace.

 

[Church_Militant]

The Church is anyone who believes in the Bible.

I’d like to see a scripture that says that. I don’t believe that you can provide one.

The church is not a teaching institution,

Really? The New Testament says different.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

it is a fellowship of believers.

Among other things, but you cannot provide a scripture that says that is all it is.

The Bible is the

source for teaching.Really? I defy you to provide scripture that supports that interpretation. You won’t find it because it’s not there.

 

[Church_Militant]

And who

assembled it? Who did God use?

God bless,
Michael

I just stated that this was of no importance to me. So you can tell me who if you wish, but I will still only care about the author.

This is precisely the blind acceptance and lazy refusal to do your own history homework that i was referring to.

It smacks of a brain washing that has told you that you can not find truth in history, which is anti-intellectualism at its worst.

Just because the New Testament tells us that the weak are used of God to confound the wise, does not mean that the weak don’t have to follow St. Paul’s directive to St. Timothy.

2nd Timothy 2:15 Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

 

[jmcrae]

This is impossible. How could Romans, and other apostolic books, have existed before Christ?

73 books in the Old Testament, or 73 books total?

I had intended to write 46; not 73. This is what I get for attempting to “multi-task” on the computer.

Sorry!!

 

[jmcrae]

Yet, I would have to abandon my disbelief of certain doctrines.

You would have to abandon your personal opinions - and you’ll have to do that before you die, anyway, in order to get to Heaven, so why not get in a little practice here and now?

Thus I am not welcomed freely, but I must accept the rules of the house.

In the same way that when you put your key in the car, you have to follow the rules of the road, instead of driving on the sidewalks or ignoring the signs and signals - the rules are there to keep us safe on our journey to Heaven. And just as having a car and following the rules of the road leads to freedom, so does having rules in the Church - especially since it is God, who knows what we need better than anybody, who gave us those rules in the first place.

 

[elt1956]

You would have to abandon your personal opinions - and you’ll have to do that before you die, anyway, in order to get to Heaven, so why not get in a little practice here and now?

In the same way that when you put your key in the car, you have to follow the rules of the road, instead of driving on the sidewalks or ignoring the signs and signals - the rules are there to keep us safe on our journey to Heaven. And just as having a car and following the rules of the road leads to freedom, so does having rules in the Church - especially since it is God, who knows what we need better than anybody, who gave us those rules in the first place.

I am a big fan of Mother Theresa and love her quote: “There are many religions, as for me, I follow Christ”. Christ is where we seek Him. Unfortunately many of us seek Him in the wrong place. Peace.

 

[Teflon93]

How can there be any differences among Catholics at all if it is the church that the HS is guiding, has the fullness of the truth, the only church that has the authority to interpret the Scriptures etc?
Has it not been said that only the Roman Catholic church is unified?

Probably for the same reason Jews wandered off in the desert even in the living presence of God.

It is because men are sinners.

Time to find another talking point—that one’s played out.

 

[Teflon93]

Yet, I would have to abandon my disbelief of certain doctrines. Thus I am not welcomed freely, but I must accept the rules of the house.

You’d have to abandon falsehood, yes. As well as the sin of pride which leads you to believe your belief or disbelief is somehow the supreme consideration of the Church.

The Church is not Ikea. She cares for the Truth, not what you choose to buy or not buy.

 

[guanophore]

I consider myself to be a Christian, and nothing else.

Unfortunately, it is more complicated than this. The Apostles defined with clarity what one must believe in order to be considered a “Christian”. All the denominations that have been spawned since the Reformation have rejected a little or a lot of these criteria.

This is exactly why I want the total unification of the body of Christ. There is strength and power in unity.

But unity is the fruit of adherance to Truth, and there will never be unity until there is adnerance to the Truth. Since, for most, “truth” is based on one’s perceptions, so long as there are so many different perceptions we will be separated from one another.

If history is fallible, and the Holy Spirit is infallible, why not rely on the Holy Spirit.

We do, and we recognize that God has entered into human history, and that the HS works through people, who exist in time, and within an historical context.

Yet, I would have to abandon my disbelief of certain doctrines. Thus I am not welcomed freely, but I must accept the rules of the house.

I find this to be a very respectful attitude.

So Jesus is the combination of the Church, the Bible, and believers? How could this be if the Word was with God in the beginning, when the church did not exist?

I think it would be more accurate to say that some of God’s revelation is found in the Scripture, some in the Church, and some in the believer. Humanity is quite unable to contain the whole revelation of God.

Many who claim “interpretation from the HS” are false prophets. Weed out the false prophets, and you will see the truth.

Weed them out by using which standard?

 

[Orionthehunter]

From Protestantman: I consider myself to be a Christian, and nothing else.

By virtue of your Baptism, you should wear this proudly.

From Protestman: This is true. I believe that this is one area where the Catholic Church prospers and the Protestant Church craps out. I think that the weaker structure of the reformation churches is much more succeptable to this. The protestant church ends up being like a Baskin Robins, or a buffet.

I see this too. Notice that many times the arguments are absolutely unessesary. I personally do not care if its pre, post, or mid. These rediculous splits are a result of worldly arguments, that are often started by people who do not want truth, only victory.

Do you not think that maybe the Scripture that Church Militant pasted regarding “contention” shows that Christ (and the Early Church) knew this was going to be a problem and thus exerted authority? Why do you think Christ would believe that “contention” and “disunity” would be ok in the future? Why do you doubt that Christ wouldn’t provide a protection from contention and disunity by ordaining a temporal authority which His flock could look to with confidence and assurance?

From Protestantman: I agree. These kinds of Churches are full of people who are not living in the HS. These are usually full of those who think they are saved because they go every week. Worldy disputes like this are not from the fruits of the Spirit. It also makes me understand why Catholics think we are all this way.

I don’t say this to be harsh or uncharitable but ask yourself “May this also apply to me?”

From Protestantman: The basis is Christ. Outside of that, there is much disagreement.
Many people who attend protestant churches are not really there to follow Christs example. The lack of structure seems to attract people who want the feel good of going to church. This is unfortunate, as many are lost this way.

Disagreement is not the work of Christ but Satan.

From Protestantman: This is a result of poor leadership. In the church I attend, there is a decent structure. This is not true of all non-denom churches though. There are at least two others in my church that would take over if my father left, and the church would continue on without him. My father made sure that there was always a good structure of elders. In this, the church is not solely dependant on one person for any task.

Structure is not an issue in the Catholic Church and not dependent on what the current Pastor sets up.

From Protestantman: I agree, I wish that protestants would be more unified with each other.
It is because the structure is weak. 3 little denominations and the big bad Devil:thumbsup: This is exactly why I want the total unification of the body of Christ. There is strength and power in unity.

There is a way. Come Home!

Not all who make these claims are actually true. Infact, many will say that it was revealed, when it is actually just their opinion. It is also important to note, that if the Holy Spirit has revealed anything, it is True. Even if the HS appears to contradict itself, it is a missunderstanding on our part. It is important for me to study scripture daily. This way, I am more closely connected to the source of truth.

I sense some humility that was lacking before. This is good.

Yet, I would have to abandon my disbelief of certain doctrines. Thus I am not welcomed freely, but I must accept the rules of the house.

God didn’t give his Commandments in the OT because He wants to destroy our will, reason or hearts. Christ didn’t give us His commands, example, teachings or Body because He wants to destroy our will, reason or hearts. God gave us these because He loves us and wants us to spend eternity with Him. So it is with the Catholic Church. The Church was given this Great Commission so as to always be a Beacon of Christ’s Light to the World. The “rules” are for my own good and I submit in love and obedience for I do not own myself. Christ owns me.

So Jesus is the combination of the Church, the Bible, and believers? How could this be if the Word was with God in the beginning, when the church did not exist?

First of all, this question must be rhetorical because even yourself have said that believers are part of Christ. But to answer your question directly.

When Christ created the Priesthood at the Last Supper He mysteriously and mystically joined Himself to the Priesthood. When the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles at Pentecost, the Church was mysteriously and mystically joined to Christ. When the Holy Spirit inspired the authors of Scripture and to the Church, Holy Scripture, Holy Tradition, and Holy Teaching was mysteriously and mystically joined to Christ. And, when we are baptized, we are mysteriously and mystically joined to Christ.

What is illuminating is that Christ promised to the Church that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against us meaning that union with Him and His Church would never be broken. But He made no such promise to us. Many times Scripture tells us that we must preserve, be diligent, etc. lest we will be lost. Our union requires our cooperation.

Many who claim “interpretation from the HS” are false prophets. Weed out the false prophets, and you will see the truth.

There is a way. Come Home! It is where you are called to be.

 

[protestantman]

.You’ll need to cite the chapter and verse that says that because I think you’re expressing an interpretation and not what the scripture actually says.

1 Corinthians 2:6-16
Wisdom From the Spirit **
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”— 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"[d] But we have the mind of Christ.**