A contraception poll. Catholics only, please!

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How so? I don’t disagree with your general point, but I think your last sentence is a non sequitur.
I don’t understand how my last sentence is a non sequitur. The poster I was responding to claimed that sex was only for making babies, and if people shouldn’t have sex unless they intend on having a baby.

I was saying that if that was the case, the Church wouldn’t allow couples to use methods like NFP as a way of having sex without the consequences of making babies.
 
…The poster I was responding to claimed that sex was only for making babies, and if people shouldn’t have sex unless they intend on having a baby.

I was saying that if that was the case, the Church wouldn’t allow couples to use methods like NFP as a way of having sex without the consequences of making babies.
I’m not sure if that was the intent of that poster, but the point you make is a good one. Sex is procreative AND unitive. And while we may enjoy the marital embrace even when procreation is not possible, the act itself must still be ordered toward procreation (open to the possibility of conception).

Perhaps it is a matter of language barrier or a misunderstanding on our part of what that poster meant? I could see this comment as being true to the faith if the meaning were that all marital acts should be open to life, even if conception isn’t possible at that moment.
Most teenagers need to know this… The reason we have sexual intercourse is to produce children,not to have fun… SO why use contraception if your supose to do it to have children 🙂
 
Nor do I. But I think the examination of conscience is a bit more complex than is obvious. I already posted where the confusion over conscience comes in. Basically, that examination takes place within the teachings of the Church. As I said, it’s not enough that one disagree, and finds some support, but after careful study of all that is available, what can we in our “present conscience” find that conforms to The Church?

Is the writing fallible, as I pointed out by those Bishops who simply used the term conscience without explanation, leaving open interpretation or misguidance?

I think if you look at it as the present conscience being not a matter of one letter or article, but as a whole,** your present conscience must conform to Church teachings.
**
Unfortunately, the issue of leaving the decision to one’s conscience has long been misunderstood and misinterpreted because there are many levels. The Church did not change it’s teaching. Maybe it was not clear, but it did not change.

Look at it this way. The Pope issued a statement on the use of condoms last year. In translation it was unclear as to a word. The Church had to clarify what the Pope was saying and how the translation was not what the Pope had meant to use as a word. A mistake in a translating from one language to another does not change what the Pope said. The Pope must be followed – the translation had an error.
No.
On this level, the level of judgment (conscientia in the narrower sense), it can be said that even the erroneous conscience binds. This statement is completely intelligible from the rational tradition of scholasticism. No one may act against his convictions, as Saint Paul had already said (Rom 14:23). But the fact that the conviction a person has come to certainly binds in the moment of acting, does not signify a canonization of subjectivity. It is never wrong to follow the convictions one has arrived at—in fact, one must do so. But it can very well be wrong to have come to such askew convictions in the first place, by having stifled the protest of the anamnesis of being. The guilt lies then in a different place, much deeper—not in the present act, not in the present judgment of conscience but in the neglect of my being which made me deaf to the internal promptings of truth. For this reason, criminals of conviction like Hitler and Stalin are guilty. These crass examples should not serve to put us at ease but should rouse us to take seriously the earnestness of the plea: “Free me from my unknown guilt” (Ps 19:13).
From our pope.
You are supposed to follow your well informed conscience.
The question is if your conscience is free of guilt how it was formed.

That’s why I said if you want to have a well formed conscience you study and you study a lot.
The studying should include reading, meditation, prayers, fasting, …
… and when you think you are done you do it all over again.

If you still hold the position that you disagree with the Magisterium you follow your conscience, otherwise you are condemning yourself.

That’s the Church’s teaching.
 
No.

From our pope.
You are supposed to follow your well informed conscience.
The question is if your conscience is free of guilt how it was formed.

That’s why I said if you want to have a well formed conscience you study and you study a lot.
The studying should include reading, meditation, prayers, fasting, …
… and when you think you are done you do it all over again.

If you still hold the position that you disagree with the Magisterium you follow your conscience, otherwise you are condemning yourself.

That’s the Church’s teaching.
I’d like to know if this is actually true, but it’s hard to figure it out because most people here are biased towards one side of the argument… 🤷
 
I think Janosik was responding to the post that seemed to suggest we should just follow the rules blindly without asking questions in an attempt to understand what those rules mean or why they are there.
You are absolutely correct.

Our brains are like talents that we got from God.
Some got ten, some five and some only one.
What do we do?

Think!
 
I’d like to know if this is actually true, but it’s hard to figure it out because most people here are biased towards one side of the argument… 🤷
I know. 🙂

The Magisterium stands on well informed consciences inspired by The Holy Spirit of all the people that contributed to the Church’s teaching.

Denying that is denying the foundation of the Magisterium.
From the same link:
For this reason the toast to conscience indeed must precede the toast to the Pope because without conscience there would not be a papacy. All power that the papacy has is power of conscience.
 
I know. 🙂

The Magisterium stands on well informed consciences inspired by The Holy Spirit of all the people that contributed to the Church’s teaching.

Denying that is denying the foundation of the Magisterium.
From the same link:
Wow…
 
It’s a serious business!
One must work extremely hard in forming his/her conscience.

It’s completely understandable when people are afraid to do so.
If their conscience tells them to follow the Church without questioning they are bind to do so.
 
I think Janosik was responding to the post that seemed to suggest we should just follow the rules blindly without asking questions in an attempt to understand what those rules mean or why they are there.
We can certainly ask why, but we must obey.
 
The Church’s moral teachings are moral truths, not choices among many equal things.

I find that the “USA Today” poll mentality really offensive. As if it is OK to choose whatever one wishes. It is not a matter for opinion The Church’s teaching is a truth, which we are to embrace.

The false idea that the “percent” of Catholics who think or do this-or-that is indicative of where Church teaching should or will go is harmful.

I don’t think this mentality should be encouraged here.

Just MHO.
Do we encourage sin by talking about it?

In which case, how are we ever going to combat against it?
 
From our pope.

If you still hold the position that you disagree with the Magisterium you follow your conscience, otherwise you are condemning yourself.

That’s the Church’s teaching.
I don’t see where the article implies that. Perhaps I missed that statement?
If you hold to that belief, you end up giving a green-light to Luther and other heretics, who thought they were following their conscience despite their disagreements with the Teachings of the Church.

Accordingly, the freedom of the Christian would be rescued by appeal to the classical principle of moral tradition that conscience is the highest norm which man is to follow even in opposition to authority. Authority in this case, the Magisterium, may well speak of matters moral, but only in the sense of presenting conscience with material for its own deliberation. Conscience would retain, however, the final word. Some authors reduce conscience in this its aspect of final arbiter to the formula: conscience is infallible.

This says that the Authority gives us the basis, the framework, upon which to form our conscience. Once we understand the material given by the Authority, we form our conscience accordingly. So, in the case of contraception, the Church explains why contraception is evil and provides us with the framework of understanding the evils of contraception and what constitutes contraception, and we form our conscience with that.

And then the very next paragraph pretty much sinks your summary:

Nonetheless, at this point, a contradiction can arise. It is of course undisputed that one must follow a certain conscience or at least not act against it. But whether the judgment of conscience or what one takes to be such, is always right, indeed whether it is infallible, is another question. For if this were the case, it would mean that there is no truth—at least not in moral and religious matters, which is to say, in the areas which constitute the very pillars of our existence. For judgments of conscience can contradict each other. Thus there could be at best the subject’s own truth, which would be reduced to the subject’s sincerity. No door or window would lead from the subject into the broader world of being and human solidarity. Whoever thinks this through will come to the realization that no real freedom exists then and that the supposed pronouncements of conscience are but the reflection of social circumstances. This should necessarily lead to the conclusion that placing freedom in opposition to authority overlooks something. There must be something deeper, if freedom and, therefore, human existence are to have meaning.

It is important to read more than just the first few sentences of Church documents when trying to summarize them.
 
From our pope.

If you still hold the position that you disagree with the Magisterium you follow your conscience, otherwise you are condemning yourself.

That’s the Church’s teaching.
Still more from that same article that completely contradicts your misunderstanding of the Pope.

What I was only dimly aware of in this conversation became glaringly clear a little later in a dispute among colleagues about the justifying power of the erroneous conscience. Objecting to this thesis, someone countered that if this were so then the Nazi SS would be justified and we should seek them in heaven since they carried out all their atrocities with fanatic conviction and complete certainty of conscience. Another responded with utmost assurance that of course this was indeed the case. There is no doubting the fact that Hitler and his accomplices who were deeply convinced of their cause, could not have acted otherwise. Therefore, the objective terribleness of their deeds notwithstanding, they acted morally, subjectively speaking. Since they followed their albeit mistaken consciences, one would have to recognize their conduct as moral and, as a result, should not doubt their eternal salvation. Since that conversation, I knew with complete certainty that something was wrong with the theory of justifying power of the subjective conscience, that, in other words, a concept of conscience which leads to such conclusions must be false. For, subjective conviction and the lack of doubts and scruples which follow therefrom do not justify man.
 
It’s a serious business!
One must work extremely hard in forming his/her conscience.

It’s completely understandable when people are afraid to do so.
If their conscience tells them to follow the Church without questioning they are bind to do so.
No one can say the Church is against studying hard 😉
 
B: Anything the Magisterial teaches is an ongoing answer to “why” nature works the way it does, a far more complicated question than “how” and it therefore will always be open to more uncertainty, reexamination and disagreement.

C: You are talking about teleology.
Could you explain further? I don’t understand what this is.
Wouldn’t the above statement necessarily be false for someone who accepts the Church’s authority to pronounce on these matters? And if one did not accept the Church’s authority, wouldn’t the entire debate be irrelevant?
Well, the church community’s not divided black and white between those who fully accept Church authority and those who don’t at all.

But any uncertainty or disagreement can be relevant even if the Church settles the matter and you believe the Church is infallible because we all have to live with them.
 
I don’t understand how my last sentence is a non sequitur. The poster I was responding to claimed that sex was only for making babies, and if people shouldn’t have sex unless they intend on having a baby.

I was saying that if that was the case, the Church wouldn’t allow couples to use methods like NFP as a way of having sex without the consequences of making babies.
Ah, I understand you now and withdraw the question.
 
I did not state it was a rule. It is not a rule. A rule implies something made up and changeable.

It is a moral truth. It isn’t open for debate. It isn’t a matter of choice. Authentic freedom is freedom to do the good.

I did not say we are to “blindly follow” anything. Of course we are to study the Church’s teaching. But, ultimately, we must give assent to ALL the teachings of the Church. That is not optional.

Then there is no difference whatsoever in calling it “blindly following”. If we don’t agree or understand, we have to do it anyway. Maybe it is not totally blind, but we surely have no choice.

The Church is quite open to debate and discussion on a variety of topics in the realm of theology. Luther was engaged in many such debates. That’s what monks and university scholars did. The Church originally characterized the problem as a “squabble between moonks.” Rhetoric and debate were commonplace.

However, Luther crossed beyond those things open for debate and discussion. The Truths of the Faith are not open for debate. They are open for discussion, which brings about better understanding OF the truth. Hence the zillions of Catholic books, bible studies, etc.

This “poll” is not framed as such. It is framed as if alll “opinions” are legitimate. They are not in this case.

Of course it can.

But, in such a discussion the question is “why is contraception a moral evil?” Not the “poll” questions above.
 
For what purpose and to what end?

Again, such a poll seems to attempt to legitimize such “choices”.
No, but is sure as heck lets people know they may or may not be the only ones out there who disagree or differ or don’t follow or don’t understand.
 
It makes me concerned that some people on this thread seem like they are saying ‘If the majority of Catholics disagree with it, scrap the teaching’. That viewpoint shows a clear misunderstanding of the Catholic Church.
No, just a disagreement.
 
I would phrase it like this:

“As much as my heart doubts it, my mind knows its the truth and I plan on submitting to it in action if I ever get married”
 
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