A Contradiction?

[JReducation]

So you believe in the Anonymous Christian theory? I beleive that the SSPX has it right on this one.

I just read the rules of CAF. They forbid anyone to defend the SSPX as being right.

Take it up with the moderators.

JR

 

[stmaria]

=catharina;3489867]maria, I’ve never heard of the Anonymous Christian theory. Maybe it’s be one of those VERY SPECIAL “teachings” that you share with your heroes in sspx

I am suprised that you have never heard of Anonymous Christian since you say you are well rounded in Catholic Theology. Have you ever heard of Karl Rahner? he was the** leading theologian **at Vatican II. He is considered the greatest theologian of the century.His influence can be seen in the writing of Vatican II especially in Nostrae Aetate.“

…no man is excluded from salvation simply because of so-called original sin; a man can only lose his salvation through serious personal sin of his own…This possibility must really be given to all. “pp 200-201.
…”the Second Vatican Council has recognized the possibility that even non-Christians, polytheists and atheists can live in a subjective state of freedom from serious sin…So the possibility cannot be denied to any other group of men, whatever their externally verifiable attitudes and beliefs.” Rahner, Theological Investigations Vol 16, p 202.

“For if a given individual rejects the Christianity brought to him through the preaching of the Church, even then we are still never in any position to decide whether this rejection as it exists in the concrete signifies a grave fault or an act of faithfulness to his own conscience…Thus we can never say with ultimate certainty whether a non-Christian who has rejected Christianity and who, in spite of a certain encounter with Christianity, does not become a Christian, is still following the provisional path mapped out for his own salvation which is leading him to an encounter with God, or whether he has now entered upon the way of perdition.” Rahner, Theological Investigations Vol 10, p 48.

If you can’t figure out what JR is saying about the need for Jews to be brought into the fullness of their inheritance (as opposed to your imposition of “conversion”) then you have a lot to learn about Salvation History. The promise of the Messiah was made to the Jews - not to the Gentiles.

And the Jews reject Him as Messiah. Are you saying the Jews do not need conversion? That they can continue to reject Christ and be saved?

.

A Jewish person who accepts the Messiah, Jesus Christ Our Lord, is simply following his faith to its obvious and only conclusion

.

Accepts Him when? At the second coming? At the final judgement? They must accept Him before they die. Do you not believe the words of Christ?
Matthew 10:33 “But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven”

**Jews who discover Christ **are led to the fullness of their own faith with its Messianic promises. **If you can’t yet see that distinction, perhaps you need to pray about **it

Discover Christ when?
What distinction? I pray that the Jews will have the veil lifted from their hearts and acknowledge Jesus Christ as their savior.

It is interesting to note that you still believe that you can pick and choose among teachings from sspx even when they are in opposition to teachings of HMC.

Name one teaching of the SSPX that is in opposition to the teachings of the Church.

As you well know, the founder of sspx was excommunicated and that should tell you a lot

His excommunication wasn’t over his teachings, now was it?

 

[SFD]

…no man is excluded from salvation simply because of so-called original sin; a man can only lose his salvation through serious personal sin of his own…This possibility must really be given to all. “pp 200-201.

This is a flat out denial of original sin. It is heresy. Rahner knows the Church teaching on original sin…he denies it with pertinacity. He can be considered a heretic…by pertinaciously denying original sin he has placed himself outside the Church.

SFD

P.S.

catherina:

Rahner was not excommunicated. He proved faithful to Rome. Lefebvre? Not so.

Except Rahner is a heretic. He is not even a Catholic. Your point (comparing Rahner to Lefebvre) here should be offensive to any Catholic worth his salt.

 

[catharina]

I am suprised that you have never heard of Anonymous Christian since you say you are well rounded in Catholic Theology. Have you ever heard of Karl Rahner? he was the** leading theologian **at Vatican II. He is considered the greatest theologian of the century.His influence can be seen in the writing of Vatican II especially in Nostrae Aetate.“

…no man is excluded from salvation simply because of so-called original sin; a man can only lose his salvation through serious personal sin of his own…This possibility must really be given to all. “pp 200-201.
…”the Second Vatican Council has recognized the possibility that even non-Christians, polytheists and atheists can live in a subjective state of freedom from serious sin…So the possibility cannot be denied to any other group of men, whatever their externally verifiable attitudes and beliefs.” Rahner, Theological Investigations Vol 16, p 202.

“For if a given individual rejects the Christianity brought to him through the preaching of the Church, even then we are still never in any position to decide whether this rejection as it exists in the concrete signifies a grave fault or an act of faithfulness to his own conscience…Thus we can never say with ultimate certainty whether a non-Christian who has rejected Christianity and who, in spite of a certain encounter with Christianity, does not become a Christian, is still following the provisional path mapped out for his own salvation which is leading him to an encounter with God, or whether he has now entered upon the way of perdition.” Rahner, Theological Investigations Vol 10, p 48.

And the Jews reject Him as Messiah. Are you saying the Jews do not need conversion? That they can continue to reject Christ and be saved?

…

Accepts Him when? At the second coming? At the final judgement? They must accept Him before they die. Do you not believe the words of Christ?
Matthew 10:33 “But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven”

Discover Christ when?
What distinction? I pray that the Jews will have the veil lifted from their hearts and acknowledge Jesus Christ as their savior.

Name one teaching of the SSPX that is in opposition to the teachings of the Church.

His excommunication wasn’t over his teachings, now was it?

Yes, I’ve heard of Karl Rahner and when permissible, I’ve read Karl Rahmer. However I never accepted a teaching unless it came from Rome. As for the words you’ve quoted from Rahner: “Thus we can never say with ultimate certainty whether a non-Christian who has rejected Christianity and who, in spite of a certain encounter with Christianity, does not become a Christian, is still following the provisional path mapped out for his own salvation which is leading him to an encounter with God, or whether he has now entered upon the way of perdition.” These words have to do with judging the soul of an individual other. We are so ordered to avoid such judgment - by Christ first and then by the Church - if we wish to escape judgment ourselves. I’d like to avoid being judged. Maybe you believe you’re perfect? .

Make Jews your singular enemy if you wish, but don’t expect God to smile on you for it. Rahner was not excommunicated. He proved faithful to Rome. Lefebvre? Not so. Yet sspx continues to treat him as “worthy.” What else do you need to know? Presenting Jews with Jesus as the Messianic fulfillment of their own faith is completely true - whether you like it or not.

 

[JReducation]

I was born Jewish. My parents, three brothers, one sister, wife and children were Jewish.

Both of my parents, my wife, one brother and my seven-year old son died as Jews. My wife, father and son died in a car accident. It was a tripple death.

I dare anyone to say that they are damned, because they died Jewish. How dare you suggest that a seven-year old little boy who was brain dead and who was on life support for 12 hours is damned. How dare you tell me that I damned my son, because I aksed the doctors to pull the plug before he was baptized, because we were Jewish at the time.

How dare you pass such judgement.

JR

 

[catharina]

stMaria, very clearly, the fact that sspx supports Lefebvre as good and graced when in fact, he was excommunicated, is a teaching opposed to Church Teachings. That sspx follows those four bishops who were excommunicated with him is another example of the false teachings of sspx.

You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

 

[catharina]

I was born Jewish. My parents, three brothers, one sister, wife and children were Jewish.

Both of my parents, my wife, one brother and my seven-year old son died as Jews. My wife, father and son died in a car accident. It was a tripple death.

I dare anyone to say that they are damned, because they died Jewish. How dare you suggest that a seven-year old little boy who was brain dead and who was on life support for 12 hours is damned. How dare you tell me that I damned my son, because I aksed the doctors to pull the plug before he was baptized, because we were Jewish at the time.

How dare you pass such judgement.

JR

JR, I’m so sorry for your losses.

Whoever judges, will be judged. Jesus has promised that.
That anyone would presume to know the state of another’s soul is astonishing to me.

 

[catharina]

Except Rahner is a heretic. He is not even a Catholic. Your point (comparing Rahner to Lefebvre) here should be offensive to any Catholic worth his salt.

The Church has never condemned Rahner as a heretic or I would have “noticed” the fact. You are not equipped to condemn him as a heretic and you should know that with certainty since you are sedevacantist and are not in union with Rome. If YOU are calling him a heretic according to the Church of SFD, that’s another story.

 

[SFD]

I was born Jewish. My parents, three brothers, one sister, wife and children were Jewish.

Both of my parents, my wife, one brother and my seven-year old son died as Jews. My wife, father and son died in a car accident. It was a tripple death.

I dare anyone to say that they are damned, because they died Jewish. How dare you suggest that a seven-year old little boy who was brain dead and who was on life support for 12 hours is damned. How dare you tell me that I damned my son, because I aksed the doctors to pull the plug before he was baptized, because we were Jewish at the time.

How dare you pass such judgement.

JR

Who are you speaking to?

With all due respect, the discussion is about the teaching of the Church…it matters little what I think… nor what you think, for that matter.

No one here has “judged” you or your family and your accusation is unfounded.

SFD

 

[JReducation]

Who are you speaking to?

With all due respect, the discussion is about the teaching of the Church…it matters little what I think… nor what you think, for that matter.

No one here has “judged” you or your family and your accusation is unfounded.

SFD

SFD

If you read further back, there have been posts on this thread that have claimed that Jews are damned to hell because they are not baptized or because they have not converted.

I am responding to those posts from a personal faith experience and what the Catholic Church has taught me through the writings and teachings of John Paul II, Benedict XVI and the Catholic Catechism.

I believe that anyone who suggest such a thing should be very careful of their audience. In this case, I have Jewish parents and a Jewish son who are dead. When one makes such claims as to say that Jews are damned because they are not Christians, it is a strong violation of Christian charity toward anyone who may be a convert from Judaism, such as I am.

I should have directly addressed St.Maria who seems to believe that there is not salvation possible within Judaism.

Thanks for asking.

JR

 

[SFD]

The Church has never condemned Rahner as a heretic or I would have “noticed” the fact. You are not equipped to condemn him as a heretic and you should know that with certainty since you are sedevacantist and are not in union with Rome. If YOU are calling him a heretic according to the Church of SFD, that’s another story.

The heretic is self-judged. Go read the Catholic Encyclopedia on the definition of heresy.

newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm
CE:

By entering a society, whichever it be, the individual gives up part of his individuality to be merged into the community. And that part is precisely his private judgment on the essentials: if he resumes his liberty he ipso facto separates himself from his church.

For they (heretics) have already been condemned by their own sentence, as the Apostle teaches (Tit. 3:10-11), that is, they have been cut off from the body of the Church without excommunication, as St. Jerome affirms.

You can either venture to learn something…or just resort to the old standard of calling me names. I’ll keep repeating the truth untill you listen.

SFD

 

[JReducation]

This is a flat out denial of original sin. It is heresy. Rahner knows the Church teaching on original sin…he denies it with pertinacity. He can be considered a heretic…by pertinaciously denying original sin he has placed himself outside the Church.

SFD

P.S.

Except Rahner is a heretic. He is not even a Catholic. Your point (comparing Rahner to Lefebvre) here should be offensive to any Catholic worth his salt.

This is against the rules of CAF. You may not call someone a heretic.

Also, Rahner died in communion with the Catholic Church. He was never accused of heresy by John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II or Benedict XVI.

He was a theologian. It was his job to ask questions and to make the Church think. He did not attempt to define doctrine. If you read his books, he is teaching what he believes. But like any theologian, he knows that these are matters that will end up in a discussion room. They may be refuted in light of Church tradition or be reworked so they can be used or adopted as they are.

Theologians are not supposed to dictate doctrine. Their ministry is to examine doctrine and present perspectives that have not been considered. This is what Rahner did. This is what Ratzinger did when he taught theoogy, which he did for many years at several universities.

Recently, a Jewish Rabbi was honored by Pope Benedict for his contribution to the Catholic Church and was made a member of the Order of St. Gegory which is the highest honor that can be bestowed on a theologian. This Rabbi teaches at three Pontifical Universities and his area of expertise is the theology of St. Teresa of Avila. What he does is explain Teresa’s theology in light of Jewish spirituality.

The Pope honored him because of his contribution to the Church.

Not every theologian has to say what the Church teaches. The Church wants theologians to challenge our minds, while respecting the faith of the Church.

JR

 

[catharina]

The heretic is self-judged. Go read the Catholic Encyclopedia on the definition of heresy.

newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm

You can either venture to learn something…or just resort to the old standard of calling me names. I’ll keep repeating the truth untill you listen.

SFD

I’ve called you no names. You call yourself a sedevacantist - so I have to believe you are one. The Church declares heresy and names heretics, not you or I. It’s futile to speak with you re anything since you believe in a Church With No Pope; thus, you consider yourself free to declare what you wish.

Is “in heresy” a condition? Yes. Who defines it and its author(s)? The Church.

 

[SFD]

SFD

If you read further back, there have been posts on this thread that have claimed that Jews are damned to hell because they are not baptized or because they have not converted.

I am responding to those posts from a personal faith experience and what the Catholic Church has taught me through the writings and teachings of John Paul II, Benedict XVI and the Catholic Catechism.

I believe that anyone who suggest such a thing should be very careful of their audience. In this case, I have Jewish parents and a Jewish son who are dead. When one makes such claims as to say that Jews are damned because they are not Christians, it is a strong violation of Christian charity toward anyone who may be a convert from Judaism, such as I am.

I should have directly addressed St.Maria who seems to believe that there is not salvation possible within Judaism.

Thanks for asking.

JR

JR,

I can understand the emotion. And I would disagree with anyone who says, “there is not salvation possible (for a person) within Judaism”

However, that is not the issue. We are speaking of Judaism being salvific as Judaism. It clearly is not.

Those who failed to clamber aboard Noah’s Ark were all drowned in the Flood, were they not? Do you think that unfair?

SFD

 

[SFD]

JR:

Not every theologian has to say what the Church teaches. The Church wants theologians to challenge our minds, while respecting the faith of the Church.

Rahner has no respect for the dogma of original sin, as he denies it. No theologian or Christian can deny a dogma…read the CE excerpt again.

SFD

 

[Walking_Home]

I’ve called you no names. You call yourself a sedevacantist - so I have to believe you are one. The Church declares heresy and names heretics, not you or I. It’s futile to speak with you re anything since you believe in a Church With No Pope; thus, you consider yourself free to declare what you wish.

Is “in heresy” a condition? Yes. Who defines it and its author(s)? The Church.

---

We as Catholics – should be knowledgeable enough in our Faith — to know heresy when we see it — otherwise—no one would know Truth from heresy.

 

[SFD]

I’ve called you no names. You call yourself a sedevacantist - so I have to believe you are one. The Church declares heresy and names heretics, not you or I. It’s futile to speak with you re anything since you believe in a Church With No Pope; thus, you consider yourself free to declare what you wish.

Is “in heresy” a condition? Yes. Who defines it and its author(s)? The Church.

CE:

By entering a society, whichever it be, the individual gives up part of his individuality to be merged into the community. And that part is precisely his private judgment on the essentials: if he resumes his liberty he ipso facto separates himself from his church.

Do you disagree with the Catholic Encyclopedia here?
St. Robert Bellarmine:

For they (heretics) have already been condemned by their own sentence, as the Apostle teaches (Tit. 3:10-11), that is, they have been cut off from the body of the Church without excommunication, as St. Jerome affirms.

Or St. Paul and St. Jerome here?

SFD

 

[catharina]

---

We as Catholics – should be knowledgeable enough in our Faith — to know heresy when we see it — otherwise—no one would know Truth from heresy.

I don’t know who teaches you but I know that I depend on the Church to teach me. If you’ve joined the Church of the Heresy Police, then it’s your loss.

Meanwhile in regard to this site, as JR said: “This is against the rules of CAF. You may not call someone a heretic. Also, Rahner died in communion with the Catholic Church. He was never accused of heresy by John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II or Benedict XVI.”

 

[catharina]

Do you disagree with the Catholic Encyclopedia here?

Or St. Paul and St. Jerome here?

SFD

Open your mind and heart. The state of heresy exists and brings eternal loss to a soul. YOU cannot declare the heresy of another. The Church can do so. Furthermore, such accusations as yours, while they might be accepted within your private circle of those who stand separated form the Chair of Peter, are NOT acceptable on CA.

 

[SFD]

Open your mind and heart. The state of heresy exists and brings eternal loss to a soul. YOU cannot declare the heresy of another. The Church can do so. Furthermore, such accusations as yours, while they might be accepted within your private circle of those who stand separated form the Chair of Peter, are NOT acceptable on CA.

Where did the Catholic Encyclopedia get it’s information? Are you saying it is wrong?

It appears to agree with all other Catholic sources.

SFD