A Contradiction?

[mikee]

catharina:

It is important to take things IN CONTEXT. Complete her thought:

“It doesn’t matter if one is a Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Jew. What matters is that one be a good Christian, Mulim, Hindu or Jew. The rest is up to God’s mercy.”

Yes. All is up to GOD’s mercy, including the final interior disposition of any soul…

I agree; the final interior disposition of any soul is up to God. But I don’t believe it follows from this that it doesn’t matter what religion a person belongs to.

Ratzinger observed that such a view would lead to the denial of the truth, and would be a disservice to both Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

As for mercy, in the spirit of today’s liturgical feast, here is a prayer from St. Faustina which rightly expressed the proper attitude us Catholics should have towards those separated from the Church.

"Today Bring to Me the Souls of Heretics and Schismatics." - Jesus.

Most Merciful Jesus, Goodness Itself, You do not refuse light to those who seek it of You. Receive into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls of heretics and schismatics. Draw them by Your light into the unity of the Church, and do not let them escape from the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart; but bring it about that they, too, come to glorify the generosity of Your mercy.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls of heretics, and schismatics, who have squandered Your blessings and misused Your graces obstinately persisting in their errors. Do not look upon their errors, but upon the love of Your Own Son and upon His bitter Passion, which He underwent for their sake, since they, too, are enclosed in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. Bring it about that they also may glorify Your great mercy for endless ages. Amen. (From St. Faustina’s Diary)

 

[DustinsDad]

Dustin, you speak a lot of truth here. But this is Divine Mercy Sunday and God’s Mercy is for ALL of humanity. We Catholics can invoke this Grace for the entire planet. And just as you say, God in his infinite and timeless omnipotence can see our prayers today as if spoken just at the moment prior to death in a long past event iust as if we stood right at that person’s bedside then and prayed for their mercy. I think it would be a good Catholic gesture for you to offer JR’s family the benefit of your spiritual piety and grace to pray on their behalf.

Agreed totally. What I’m trying to do is to get JR to realize that he actually needs to pray for their souls because, objectively speaking by what we see on the surface, they are in extreme peril by being outside of HMC. Conjuring up some way - some new theology - that makes thouse outside HMC actually inside is a false teaching. And its the quickest way to eliminate said prayers - and conversions for those stil alive. It’s about the most unmerciful thing one person can do to another.

All of us have regrets that we did not have more influence or said more prayers for a departed loved one.

You are so right here. So right. Guilty as charged.

It is AGONIZING to think of a loved one who may have been denied Heaven and cast away for eternity becuase they did not have an exterior indications of accepting Jesus. But ONLY God knows the heart as I am sure you are aware. And ONLY God can project His saving grace to help such people. Let’s TRUST in God to “do the right thing”.

Absolutely. But let us remember that *whatever *God does is the “right thing.”

Let’s do what Sister Faustina told us we must do today - Let’s invoke Jesus’ Infinite Divine Mercy and TRUST in Him.

Amen.

Please today join your prays to mine for JR’s family that God saw into the future at the time of their deaths to see our prayers for Divine Mercy today. Let us bring God’s Mercy to others. …

Done.

BTW, I try to put all the folks I talk on these boards in my daily prayers (in a general sense, I usually don’t go through a list of screen names) - especially those I’m butting heads with.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Jeanette_L]

Of course it’s all supernatural grace for each of us - and even every valid sacrament is supernatural - a miracle in itself - guaranteed by Christ Himself. But last minute death-bed conversions are in a class all by themselves. A roll of the dice gamble with eternity.

By anyway, the point is if one thinks a particular race of people doesn’t need to convert in the first place, then praying for an extraordinary last-moment-of-life conversion for these individuals is not only unnecessary, according to JR here, it’s actually offensive.

DD

I really don’t understand the concept of roll of the dice when it comes to God. Maybe I missed that somewhere. It seems to me there was a plan. And it also seems to me that we have been told that we really don’t know squat when it comes to that plan, we have been given clues, but that our knowledge is so imperfect, that when we get to eternity and see things clearly, everything we thought we knew will just melt away. I see that as being a sign of something awesome, not the doom and gloom you seem to be stuck on. But you can continue to preach doom and gloom, to each his own, maybe it’s just your thing.

And I think that what JR meant was offensive was your complete lack of sensitivity and almost cruelty concerning the way you speak of his child’s soul. I’m not sure what it is you are thinking here? Charity was not abounding at all in this discourse. And no matter what you’re theology, I have to wonder about your motives. It was very cruel. And that was what was offensive. Not the notion of praying for souls of any race or religion.

But you won’t see this either, you will just brush right on over it like it never happened. This seems to be your way. I’m sorry, just can’t soften that one, it’s one you’ll have to take responsibility for. Although, on second thought, I’m sure you will justify it somehow.

 

[JReducation]

I agree; the final interior disposition of any soul is up to God. But I don’t believe it follows from this that it doesn’t matter what religion a person belongs to.

Ratzinger observed that such a view would lead to the denial of the truth, and would be a disservice to both Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

As for mercy, in the spirit of today’s liturgical feast, here is a prayer from St. Faustina which rightly expressed the proper attitude us Catholics should have towards those separated from the Church.

Mikee,

Observe the words of the prayer. It speaks of those who are obstinate, not of those who are honest. I will agree that there is a difference, between the two.

A person who having known the fullness of truth and is obstinate about not following is a far cry from one who is born into a particular faith and that’s all he or she knows.

I also agree with Ratzinger that we should not leave people out in the dark. Everyone has the right to knowlege, whether it’s knowledge of the faith or academic knowledge. This is a fundamental human right.

What the Cardinal did not say was such sharing of the faith should be done with hostility, condescension or disrespect.

Remember when he made that speech to his colleagues at the university in Germany and the Muslims were offended. He made every effort to explain that he was quoting and that this did not represent what he believed about Islam. He deliberately invited Muslim leaders to meet with him at the Vatican to clarify. This is a deep sign of respect.

When Pope John Paul II met with the head of the Orthodox Church he called him, “Holy Father” and “Pope” because that’s his title in the Orthodox Church. This was a sign of respect on the part of John Paul II, not a surrendering of truth.

Cardinal Ratzinger’s statement is that truth and ministry must go hand in hand. But he is not encouraging people to be disrespectful or bullies in the name of truth. The Germany incident and his actions after that are good examples of how he lives his own teaching on this issue.

JR

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
This is a good example of what I meant in my previous post to you. You are not teaching truth. You are bullying…

**Pay no mind WalkingHome, when modernist arguments start to cruble on the sand, modernists will inevitably accuse you of bullying. **

Ususally comes after they tell you you are not educated enough to understand their theology though. Hmmmm, a change in tactics…http://bestsmileys.com/paranoid/7.gif

DD

---

I know what you mean — been here long enough to know how some people maneuver.

 

[steppenwolf1218]

Actually it is a dogma of faith that the Pope is infallible and that he does not need the support or approval of the bishops.

The bishops are infallible when they unanimously, in Council, declare a doctrine. This is only possible when there is a reigning pope. Where the chair of Peter is vacant, such as between the time of a popes death and the election of a new pope, the bishops may not hold any kind of council nor teach anything new.

This was declared by Canon Law based on the decree of infallibility of Vatican I.

JR

Actually the full decree states the “Pope by virtue of his office”. That does not imply nor was it ever meant to imply that the Pope himself is infallible. The humanity of the Pope is in fact fallible as is any human being. The Pope exercising his authority through the supreme office of the Pontiff is infallible. Note also that both the Canon Law and the CCC both refer to the Pope working in communion with the bishops.
While the Pope can in fact make decrees and determine dogma in his own right, he is doing so within the guise of his office which in fact is in communion with the bishops. These points of the Canon Law and the CCC are based on the authority given Peter by Christ who also confered the same to the Apostles with Peter as head in service to Christ. Note also in the Acts of the Apostles that Peter never says “I” when stating teachings but rather uses “we”. The interpretation there being is that the Apostles confered and acted as one with Peter as the leader. It is this action of Christ, giving the authority to the Apostles as a group, that justifies through Apostliptic succession the infallibility of the bishops in communion with the Pope.
It is always necessarry to recognize the fact that the human Pope is indeed fallible as a human being. It is only through the workings of the Spirit that he is infallible. That infallibility is strictly limited to the office of the Pontiff or Papacy on matters of faith, doctrine and dogma. Peter himself saw this which is why it was he that decreed that his successor should be elected by the various bishops of the early church and not be his decision nor any one person’s decision to name his successor. The election of the Pope had its start from the very beginning with the first successor to Peter. Peter well knew the line between his own human failings and the infalliblity of Divine guidance through the Spirit. It is in the latter that the Church understands and defines infallibility.
Take care
Dennis

 

[JReducation]

Actually the full decree states the “Pope by virtue of his office”. That does not imply nor was it ever meant to imply that the Pope himself is infallible. The humanity of the Pope is in fact fallible as is any human being. The Pope exercising his authority through the supreme office of the Pontiff is infallible. Note also that both the Canon Law and the CCC both refer to the Pope working in communion with the bishops.
While the Pope can in fact make decrees and determine dogma in his own right, he is doing so within the guise of his office which in fact is in communion with the bishops. These points of the Canon Law and the CCC are based on the authority given Peter by Christ who also confered the same to the Apostles with Peter as head in service to Christ. Note also in the Acts of the Apostles that Peter never says “I” when stating teachings but rather uses “we”. The interpretation there being is that the Apostles confered and acted as one with Peter as the leader. It is this action of Christ, giving the authority to the Apostles as a group, that justifies through Apostliptic succession the infallibility of the bishops in communion with the Pope.
It is always necessarry to recognize the fact that the human Pope is indeed fallible as a human being. It is only through the workings of the Spirit that he is infallible. That infallibility is strictly limited to the office of the Pontiff or Papacy on matters of faith, doctrine and dogma. Peter himself saw this which is why it was he that decreed that his successor should be elected by the various bishops of the early church and not be his decision nor any one person’s decision to name his successor. The election of the Pope had its start from the very beginning with the first successor to Peter. Peter well knew the line between his own human failings and the infalliblity of Divine guidance through the Spirit. It is in the latter that the Church understands and defines infallibility.
Take care
Dennis

I don’t disagree with this at all. This is what I learned. Maybe I misunderstood you and if so, I’m sorry. I thought you were saying that the Pope can never speak infallibly without the consent of the bishops. That would not be the case, such as when he declares something ex cathedra, which is rare. But other than that, I would only make one adjustment to what you’re saying for the sake of clarity, the bishops operate in communion with the Pope, not so much the other way around.

This can lead to the misunderstanding that the Orthodox have about the papacy, the whole argument about first among equals etc.

thanks for your message

JR

 

[catharina]

Of course it’s all supernatural grace for each of us - and even every valid sacrament is supernatural - a miracle in itself - guaranteed by Christ Himself. But last minute death-bed conversions are in a class all by themselves. A roll of the dice gamble with eternity.

By anyway, the point is if one thinks a particular race of people doesn’t need to convert in the first place, then praying for an extraordinary last-moment-of-life conversion for these individuals is not only unnecessary, according to JR here, it’s actually offensive.

DD

Finally, a full revelation of your hidden self - another mystery solved. You believe that the Jewish people are a RACE? A RACE of people?

No.

Judiasm is a religious faith that was created by God Almighty and because of God’s promises to the Jewish faithful, WE TOO, the Gentiles, have received salvation.

 

[DustinsDad]

I really don’t understand the concept of roll of the dice when it comes to God.

The roll of the dice is not on God’s part, it’s on ours when we downplay the real necessity of conversion and assume that a soul will be given an extraordinary grace of conversion on their death beds.

…And it also seems to me that we have been told that we really don’t know squat when it comes to that plan, we have been given clues, but that our knowledge is so imperfect, that when we get to eternity and see things clearly, everything we thought we knew will just melt away.

In a certain sense you are right - the more we know about God, the more we realize we don’t know. But revealed Truth is revealed Truth - And God is not going to reveal something to us through infallible teachings of His Church that are going to change or contradict themselves. We can trust the infallible dogmas of the Church precisely because we can trust Christ.

I see that as being a sign of something awesome, not the doom and gloom you seem to be stuck on. But you can continue to preach doom and gloom, to each his own, maybe it’s just your thing.

I don’t know what’s doomy and gloomy about Christ establishing His Church here on earth for us, paid for upon the cross, through which He pours forth the grace of Eternal Life.

And I think that what JR meant was offensive was your complete lack of sensitivity and almost cruelty concerning the way you speak of his child’s soul.

I listed the ways in which the Church teaches that those not within the visible body of Holy Mother Church can be united to Her soul - and thus be saved.

I hope and pray JR’s deceased family members made to be with Our Lord in Heaven by these extraordinary means, I truly do. Such can be and should be prayed for…trusting that in God’s mercy and justice…what He does is always perfect. No matter what.

I will not say, indeed I cannot say, “it doesn’t matter what religion one is” or “it doesn’t matter what one thinks of Jesus” or “Jews need not convert for the Salvation of their eternal souls.” Sorry. I don’t have the authority to overrule God’s revealed truth.

And no emotional argument gives me that authority to accept anything that contradicts what Christ has revealed through His Church.

…And no matter what you’re theology, I have to wonder about your motives. It was very cruel. And that was what was offensive. Not the notion of praying for souls of any race or religion.

But you won’t see this either, you will just brush right on over it like it never happened. This seems to be your way. I’m sorry, just can’t soften that one, it’s one you’ll have to take responsibility for. Although, on second thought, I’m sure you will justify it somehow.

Whew, last time I point out that we even come close to agreeing on anything. Boy, then lengths some folks go to prove they aren’t a dreaded, cruel, gloomy-doomy “traditionalist”.

Yikes.

DD

 

[DustinsDad]

Finally, a full revelation of your hidden self - another mystery solved. You believe that the Jewish people are a RACE? A RACE of people?

No.

Actually, the Jewish people are unique in that they are a race and a religion. Of course there are Jewish people who don’t practice that religion, and there are converts who are not of that race…but generally speaking…both.

 

[catharina]

I hope and pray JR’s deceased family members made to be with Our Lord in Heaven by these extraordinary means, I truly do. Such can be and should be prayed for…trusting that in God’s mercy and justice…what He does is always perfect. No matter what. DD

Finally, words from a Christian even if Jeanette had to give the words to you.

Now, what is your religion?
Never mind, I’ll check you profile since you won’t say.

 

[catharina]

Actually, the Jewish people are unique in that they are a race and a religion. Of course there are Jewish people who don’t practice that religion, and there are converts who are not of that race…but generally speaking…both.

By what standard do you proclaim that “truth” of yours?
Certainly it is not from Church teaching.

 

[JReducation]

Finally, a full revelation of your hidden self - another mystery solved. You believe that the Jewish people are a RACE? A RACE of people?

No.

Judiasm is a religious faith that was created by God Almighty and because of God’s promises to the Jewish faithful, WE TOO, the Gentiles, have received salvation.

Catharina:

I want to piggy back on what you’re saying. I don’t understand why DD keeps talking about “new theology”.

I have quoted Et Unum Sint over 50 times. I have made references to the Ecumenical Directory. If there is a new theology, then blame the Catholic Church for it, not me. I just believe the Church. I don’t tell the Church what to believe.

As to a race, Catharina, you are right. We’re not a race. We are a faith community and if one wants to get the sociological term correct, we are an ethnic group. Yes, I am a Jewish Catholic as was St. Edith Stein, just like someone else is an Irish Catholic and so forth.

And our people are very grateful to the thousands of Catholics who gave their lives to protect us during the Holocaust, such as St. Maximilian Kolbe.

One thing that brought me to the Catholic Church was the spirituality of St. Francis which led St. Maximilian to embrace the cross that was meant for a Jewish man who had a wife and family.

St. Maximilian was generous enough and loving enough to respect the value of family and volunteered to take the young man’s place and be put to death in his stead.

Some people don’t understand what this means to a Jewish person coming into the Catholic faith, to be loved to the point of dying for us without asking for anything in return. St. Maximilian only asked that the man pray for him.

The young man did pray for him and was seated front row wearing his kippah at St. Maximilian’s canonization. Of course he was no longer a young man. In fact, his grand daughter and St. Maximilian’s niece are coming to give a talk at our parish next month.

What I don’t understand is why some people can’t step back and apologize for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. And why other Catholics are quick to point out truth when they disagree, but not point out failures in charity and compassion. I believe that we are to console those who mourn, not make them feel worse.

That’s an example of truth in action.

JR

 

[DustinsDad]

…First, I believe John Paul II when he says that there is hope of salvation for my Jewish family because of the relationship between our Church and Judaism.

There is hope - in the ways I laid out previously that you found so offensive.

…Sixth, do you realize that this is not the response that the Church gave me when I asked about this? The response was, “God’s mercy is infinite and every soul who loves God is judged according to that love. Those souls who never became Catholic, because they honestly felt that they would be offending God, are also pleasing to God, because the choice they made was out of love of God, not themselves, even if they made a mistake. It was an honest mistake.

How exactly does this contradict what I wrote?

…Making an insensitive statement like you made is not an honest mistake. It’s rude and lacking in compassion, mercy and charity.

Perhaps you are too emotionally involved to be discussing this topic. Seriously. It doesn’t seem to be healthy for you.

Peace in Christ,

DD

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Perhaps you are too emotionally involved to be discussing this topic. Seriously. It doesn’t seem to be healthy for you.

Peace in Christ,

DD

I agree with this assessment. When I want very badly for something about the Faith to be true, I avoid arguing about it, because I might grow obstinate in my desire for that something to be true. Worse still, I might lead someone else off track. In such cases, I wait for someone in authority to clear it up.

 

[JReducation]

There is hope - in the ways I laid out previously that you found so offensive.

How exactly does this contradict what I wrote?

Perhaps you are too emotionally involved to be discussing this topic. Seriously. It doesn’t seem to be healthy for you.

Peace in Christ,

DD

Perhaps you don’t know how to apologize. What happened to the other points in my post? Did you just decide that they are not relevant enough?

Also, I told you already for the 50th time, read ET Unum Sint and the Ecumenical Directory. Then you’ll know what Pope John Paul II says about Jews and other faiths.

 

[JReducation]

I agree with this assessment. When I want very badly for something about the Faith to be true, I avoid arguing about it, because I might grow obstinate in my desire for that something to be true. Worse still, I might lead someone else off track. In such cases, I wait for someone in authority to clear it up.

I’ll refer you to the same document that I referred DD

newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02uu.htm

JR

 

[Jeanette_L]

The roll of the dice is not on God’s part, it’s on ours when we downplay the real necessity of conversion and assume that a soul will be given an extraordinary grace of conversion on their death beds.

I still don’t understand why you keep arguing this point DD. We are in agreement as to salvation through grace alone by way of the Cross. There are going to be those who reject God even when face to face with Him. They cannot and will not be saved. But God wills that no one be lost. It will take rejection of God and his grace to lose salvation. This we can agree on.

And no one is assuming anything. We are trusting in the Mercy of God which he has declared is greater than his Justice. Not the other way around. What we seem to be getting stuck on is the timing of conversion. I think you have a really hard time thinking that someone may be offered that opportunity outside of our seeing it. I don’t have a hard time with that. God is bigger than you or me, I just don’t see why you’re insisting that we are downplaying anything.

DustinsDad;3492660:

In a certain sense you are right - the more we know about God, the more we realize we don’t know. But revealed Truth is revealed Truth - And God is not going to reveal something to us through infallible teachings of His Church that are going to change or contradict themselves. We can trust the infallible dogmas of the Church precisely because we can trust Christ.

Do you understand the concept of the development of Doctrine? Do you understand that all the Doctrines of the Church have developed over time, from the very beginning and are still being developed to this day? I don’t think you understand this at all. That the Church has always been rethinking and re clarifying it’s understanding of revealed truth from the very infancy of the Church until now.

Why is it that you don’t see this as still happening and that it will continue to happen until we all see Christ face to face? You talk as though what is being discussed by the Church today, this digging ever deeper into the mysteries of salvation is something new and something diabolical. I find this thinking strange coming from a Catholic. At least one who has studied such things.

I don’t know what’s doomy and gloomy about Christ establishing His Church here on earth for us, paid for upon the cross, through which He pours forth the grace of Eternal Life.

Once again, this Church which has been established by Christ is ever growing in it’s understanding of Him and His saving work on the Cross for the whole world. What’s doom and gloom is your very narrow view of what the Church has proclaimed and continues to proclaim. It just doesn’t seem to fully resonate with you that she is still learning from her Head.

I listed the ways in which the Church teaches that those not within the visible body of Holy Mother Church can be united to Her soul - and thus be saved.

I hope and pray JR’s deceased family members made to be with Our Lord in Heaven by these extraordinary means, I truly do. Such can be and should be prayed for…trusting that in God’s mercy and justice…what He does is always perfect. No matter what.

I will not say, indeed I cannot say, "it doesn’t matter what religion one is

" or “it doesn’t matter what one thinks of Jesus” or “Jews need not convert for the Salvation of their eternal souls.” Sorry. I don’t have the authority to overrule God’s revealed truth.

And no emotional argument gives me that authority to accept anything that contradicts what Christ has revealed through His Church.

Whew, last time I point out that we even come close to agreeing on anything. Boy, then lengths some folks go to prove they aren’t a dreaded, cruel, gloomy-doomy “traditionalist”.

Yikes.

DD

I can only repeat what I stated above, but won’t.

And I certainly wouldn’t expect you to grasp the emotions at this point or have any understanding of them. That seems to be apparent.

 

[DustinsDad]

…What happened to the other points in my post? Did you just decide that they are not relevant enough?

Yes. Emotion gets in the way of logic sometimes. Sorry.

…Also, I told you already for the 50th time, read ET Unum Sint and the Ecumenical Directory. Then you’ll know what Pope John Paul II says about Jews and other faiths.

I’ve already dealt with your erronious understanding of Et Unum Sint in detail on the other thread. I’ll link to it if you like.

You chose not to continue that discussion. You neither explain/ defended your misinterpretations, nor did you even feign to attempt to reconcile said misinterpretations to constant teaching of the Catholic Church as explicitly laid out in previous encyclicals, Councils, etc.

Again, for the third time now, this is not the JR lecture hour…it’s a discussion board.

DD

 

[DustinsDad]

I still don’t understand why you keep arguing this point DD. We are in agreement as to salvation through grace alone by way of the Cross. There are going to be those who reject God even when face to face with Him. They cannot and will not be saved. But God wills that no one be lost. It will take rejection of God and his grace to lose salvation. This we can agree on.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us…we do agree that Jesus is God after all, right?

And no one is assuming anything. We are trusting in the Mercy of God which he has declared is greater than his Justice.

This actually is incorrect. His mercy and His justice are both infinite. They meet at the cross.

…I think you have a really hard time thinking that someone may be offered that opportunity outside of our seeing it.

I don’t see how you can say that, since I brought it up in the first place.

Do you understand the concept of the development of Doctrine?

Of course. But did you know there is a difference between development of doctrine and evolution of doctrine? Did you know that no development can contradict a previous understanding. It can deepen it, it can not contradict it. I could quote you as easily from a multitude of Church documents on this or simply point you to the CA booklet Pillar of Fire.

You talk as though what is being discussed by the Church today, this digging ever deeper into the mysteries of salvation is something new and something diabolical. I find this thinking strange coming from a Catholic. At least one who has studied such things.

Actually, what I find amazing is that folks think the Church never considered such things until 30-40 years ago. Your questions have been asked and answered. If you choose to go deeper with the Church, then you can’t go to where you contradict what she has already infallibly taught. Simple as that.

The law of non-contradiction.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad