A conversation with my Baptist brother

[Randy_Carson]

Im currently in a discussion with my brother about Jesus establishing the authority of the Pope. I’d like to get some of your insight on how to deal with what he says.heres what we have so far.

I asked “If it could be proven to you that Jesus established this authority for his church would you still reject it?”

He stated “I do not reject anything. I made a choice”

Rubbish. When he chooses between two very different paths, he is embracing one and rejecting the other as the best course to follow.

Then I said “Oh no I meant if it could be proven to you that he did give such an authority to one man would you embrace that idea?”

Then he replied "Why would it need to be proven? If it was so important as you make it sound, why does the bible not devote more time to explaining it? Why doesn’t it just plainly say it? Because it does not. Jesus does however plainly say, "Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.

At the time that the scriptures were written, no one was denying the things that are denied today, so the authors of scripture did not need to address them. The NT is not a work of systematic theology, and some things are not explained in detail because those who wrote and heard the NT books when they were new, looked to the Church experience for interpretation. The authority of the Pope needs to be proven NOW precisely because some have rejected that authority.

The disciples of Christ were equals. No one had any more authority or power over the other.

Yes and no. Scripture suggests that the other apostles deferred to Peter.

Then I said "Ok well it would need to be proven because as of right now you don’t believe that idea. And the Bible does in fact show this authority. Matthew 16:18: “I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” He only gives the Keys to one of the apostles. Also through out the new testament we see that Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles. So they weren’t just equals but there was a clear head”

Good.

Then he said "So he gave him a job to do. That doesn’t mean he’s any closer to God than any of the others.

Or anyone else on this earth for that matter.

True. But it was a really Big Job. And it was a job that the Pope continues doing to this day as the successor to Peter who was designated as the Royal Steward in the household of Jesus, the King.

God wants YOU to be his disciple"

I responded “No it doesn’t mean that he’s closer to God but it means Jesus gave him that job. An office that he held to uphold the truth of what he taught so that the church would have sound doctrine and could be taught”

Good. Our answers are the same.

he said “Well that’s great but we are all God’s children. We can all go to him and talk to him directly at any time. If you want to do it through a Priest, that is your choice and that is fine. But he also doesn’t mind if you talk to him directly and choose to have a direct relationship with him. In fact I think he wants that more than anything.”

I said "Well we do pray to God directly as well. But I think what you’re referring to as through priests is the administering of his grace. The forgiveness of sins etc.

But that’s a little off the subject.

So if God made a church and made an office to uphold his true teaching, shouldn’t we follow the teachings of the church who to this day keeps that office or authority?If it was God’s will for the church to have this structure and this authority then I sam amen. And its easy to see why such an authority is needed. If you take a look at what the idea of not having this authority has done to the church you have chaos. Since this idea came about (around the 1500’s) we now have thousands of different churches teaching different things. How can we find the truth in such a system like that? How can we find the true meaning of what Jesus taught us. Surely he did mean something that wasn’t up for just anyone to twist. To insure that his teaching’s true meaning could be taught he gave the church (his apostles) this authority and in particular to St Peter"

So far he hasn’t replied but ill update when he does. Anything you guys could add or suggest?

 

[Erich]

I find that the arguments in By What Authority? to be convincing.

 

[JRKH]

thank you. I wish I could’ve formed these words at the time. I was just so frustrated and confused that he could take such a stance that my brain was literally melting

Oh - I know what you mean…If something like that were said to me face to face I’d be in the same shock you describe…I probably then really would bust out laughing - which I suppose would not help my case.
I do so much prefer discussing these things on-line.

Peace
James

 

[Paul_Edwards]

Tell him to stay on topic.

Make clear the topic is authority not salvation or human dignity. We are equally important but saying that is of the topic.

 

[Shaolen]

Tell him to stay on topic.

Make clear the topic is authority not salvation or human dignity. We are equally important but saying that is of the topic.

yes I agree I too often take his bate to throw the discussion else where.

 

[Shaolen]

How do I address him saying that Jesus didn’t come down to establish a church but to bring us closer to God? Or spread the gospel.

 

[JRKH]

How do I address him saying that Jesus didn’t come down to establish a church but to bring us closer to God? Or spread the gospel.

Well couple of things…

1. Then why did he say what he said in Mt 16 and also in Mt 18? Why did Paul (spirit guided) call the Church the pillar and ground of Truth?
2. Why would it need to be either / or? Can’t Jesus found a Church FOR brining us closer to God?

His arguments seem to be getting weaker?
Just keep asking him questions like this…it makes him think…

Peace
James

 

[Randy_Carson]

How do I address him saying that Jesus didn’t come down to establish a church but to bring us closer to God? Or spread the gospel.

Remind him to read the red:

Matthew 16:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock** I will build my church**; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I will build my church.

 

[Goya]

How do I address him saying that Jesus didn’t come down to establish a church but to bring us closer to God? Or spread the gospel.

Don’t disagree with either of the last 2 assertions; as for the first one (that Christ didn’t come to establish a Church)–respond with a question:

…but How did Christ go about “spreading the gospel” and instructing us how to get “closer to God”?

Short answer: He established a church.

He assembled a group of Apostles; He instructed them orally; He expressly gave them (or bequeathed to them) His authority; He told them to do as He did.

Note what He didn’t do: He didn’t give them a book; He didn’t write anything down at all; and He never told them that He would reduce His teachings to a book, or set of books. Never.

This (i.e. the Bible) was done by and through the people to whom He entrusted ‘the Gospel’–His hand picked Apostles, and their hand-picked successors (recall: Christ instructed THEM to do as He had done). IOW: His Church.

…and no where in the process of writing things down and assembling the Bible, did the successors of the successors…of Christ’s hand-picked successors relinquish the authority entrusted to them (the same authority by which they assembled the Bible), and no where were they divested of such authority.

And such a divestment of authority would have had to have been verified through Divine Revelation to be Biblically consistent (i.e.–not anti or un-biblical–according to his own standard), since the Church and her authority ARE verified by/through Divine Revelation.