A converts analogy of purgatory.

  • Thread starter Thread starter suupah
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

suupah

Guest
I was reading in a book recently about a convert who had an “A Ha” moment in regards to purgatory.

She was a devout calvinist christian that was bringing up her children in a Godly and Biblical way. When the child would do something wrong she would guide them to confess to God and make it right with anyone they may have hurt with their actions. Then being consistent with scripture she would lovingly discipline them.

One the day her child asked: “Why do we need to be punished when we have already been forgiven by God and by our Neighbor?”

Her thinking was there are still consequences even when you are forgiven.

Discuss
 
If I am sick, I will pray to God for healing of the condition, but I still have to take medicine if I need it too.

I like to think of it as a spiritual cleansing or spiritual shower that washes off the residual grime that remains.
I was reading in a book recently about a convert who had an “A Ha” moment in regards to purgatory.

She was a devout calvinist christian that was bringing up her children in a Godly and Biblical way. When the child would do something wrong she would guide them to confess to God and make it right with anyone they may have hurt with their actions. Then being consistent with scripture she would lovingly discipline them.

One the day her child asked: “Why do we need to be punished when we have already been forgiven by God and by our Neighbor?”

Her thinking was there are still consequences even when you are forgiven.

Discuss
 
The doctrine of Purgatory is not only logical, but is also most necessary. We know that no unclean thing can enter heaven, and though our sins are forgiven in Confession, there is still a price to be paid, in justice. God is loving and forgiving and just. If I break the neighbor’s window, he may forgive me, but I must pay for the window. Thank God for Purgatory. If I make it to Purgatory (please God), heaven is assured, just might take a while. Protestants are going to be amazed when they find themselves in Purgatory, even though they don’t believe in it.
 
… Her thinking was there are still consequences even when you are forgiven.

Discuss
Hi Suupah,

I guess that statement has some merit.

For example, I could forgive someone if they committed a crime against me. But, my forgiveness is not a substitute for justice and rehabilitation; And I would expect the authorities to lock them up in prison and do time.
:twocents:
 
Hi suupah,

When I was in my conversion process I really had a tough time wrapping my mind around purgatory. At the time it seemed like an impediment to heaven and totally unnecessary.

One day though I was reading some articles on purgatory on the internet that explained purgatory using words and concepts that Protestants would understand. It was at that moment that the light came on. As a protestant I understood that we all died imperfect and still with some residual sin left. I also understood that nothing impure of stained could enter into God’s presence. Slowly, but surely I came to understand that a transformation that occurs between our death and the time we enter heaven is what Catholics called purgatory.

I remember after reading that I thought “Here I’ve believed in purgatory my entire life and never realized it.” After that is was something I just sort of accepted.

ChadS
 
The doctrine of Purgatory is not only logical, but is also most necessary. We know that no unclean thing can enter heaven, and though our sins are forgiven in Confession, there is still a price to be paid, in justice. God is loving and forgiving and just. If I break the neighbor’s window, he may forgive me, but I must pay for the window. Thank God for Purgatory. If I make it to Purgatory (please God), heaven is assured, just might take a while. Protestants are going to be amazed when they find themselves in Purgatory, even though they don’t believe in it.
isn’t that what Jesus did on the cross? didn’t He pay the price? didn’t His death accomplish the aspect of justice? isn’t that what grace is all about? i believe in purgatory in the sense that there is a cleansing process before we enter the banquet because we have the stain of this fallen world on us, but i do not believe it in a sense that WE have to pay for any unconfessed sin. Jesus already paid for the sin and we must accept His free gift (this takes humility and the realization that we cannot do ANYTHING to get ourselves into heaven… not even pay for our own sins). this is harder for many people to accept than it is to think we can help in the process or pay for something that we can’t. again, i do believe in a cleansing process but i see it as a washing of the stain of this fallen world and the stain of our fallen nature, NOT a payment of sins on our part because Christ already paid it (you know, the whole “it is finished” statement).
 
isn’t that what Jesus did on the cross? didn’t He pay the price? didn’t His death accomplish the aspect of justice? isn’t that what grace is all about? i believe in purgatory in the sense that there is a cleansing process before we enter the banquet because we have the stain of this fallen world on us, but i do not believe it in a sense that WE have to pay for any unconfessed sin. Jesus already paid for the sin and we must accept His free gift (this takes humility and the realization that we cannot do ANYTHING to get ourselves into heaven… not even pay for our own sins). this is harder for many people to accept than it is to think we can help in the process or pay for something that we can’t. again, **i do believe in a cleansing **process but i see it as a washing of the stain of this fallen world and the stain of our fallen nature, NOT a payment of sins on our part because Christ already paid it (you know, the whole “it is finished” statement).
How does this cleansing process work?
 
How does this cleansing process work?
i sort of go with Paul when he talks in Corinthians about “passing through fire”. the things in us of God will be refined and the stain of our brokenness and this broken world will be burned up. it’s not punishment but cleansing. C.S. Lewis uses the analogy of going into a banquet. we are invited, but we’ve been living on the streets and in the gutter for so long that we need to be cleaned up before it we can enter. again, cleansing not punishment.
 
i sort of go with Paul when he talks in Corinthians about “passing through fire”. the things in us of God will be refined and the stain of our brokenness and this broken world will be burned up. it’s not punishment but cleansing. C.S. Lewis uses the analogy of going into a banquet. we are invited, but we’ve been living on the streets and in the gutter for so long that we need to be cleaned up before it we can enter. again, cleansing not punishment.
Same as I see it, and the name for it is …

Drumroll please-----

P-U-R-G-A-T-O-R-Y!

Its no punishment to be chosen for heaven!

Cause, thats where everyone in Purgatory will wind up!😃
 
Same as I see it, and the name for it is …

Drumroll please-----

P-U-R-G-A-T-O-R-Y!

Its no punishment to be chosen for heaven!

Cause, thats where everyone in Purgatory will wind up!😃
i didn’t say i didn’t use the word purgatory. i just said there was no payment for sins happening in purgatory, Jesus already paid for our sins, we can’t do it. it is Jesus cleansing us for the great banquet.
 
One the day her child asked: “Why do we need to be punished when we have already been forgiven by God and by our Neighbor?”

Her thinking was there are still consequences even when you are forgiven.
By that logic everyone must go through Purgatory. Even Mary, Peter & Moses. For all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God. 😃
 
When you go to confession to do confess every little sin that you have done?

I dont think its humanly possible to remember everything you ever did so it is not possible to confess everything either. Thats why I believe purgatory exists. As a way of penance for all the non-mortal sins you forgot or never mentioned in confessions.
 
When you go to confession to do confess every little sin that you have done?

I dont think its humanly possible to remember everything you ever did so it is not possible to confess everything either. Thats why I believe purgatory exists. As a way of penance for all the non-mortal sins you forgot or never mentioned in confessions.
why do you need to confess at all? when you have a repentant heart, for me thats all the really matters. with a repentant heart, you are sorry for EVERYTHING, whether or not you remember every little detail. like the thief on the cross, did he confess to jesus? no. but he was repentant.
 
why do you need to confess at all? when you have a repentant heart, for me thats all the really matters. with a repentant heart, you are sorry for EVERYTHING, whether or not you remember every little detail. like the thief on the cross, did he confess to jesus? no. but he was repentant.
Well it’s a fair question, and is certainly a loaded one. And it’s certainly one that I have thought about myself. What it comes down to is that Christ is the one true mediator between God and man. But how he accomplishes the mediation is his choice. Upon ascending into heaven Christ instituted a church that would be his earthly guide for all nations. A church that would be protected and guided by the Holy Spirit, to preserve his Christian truths and guide all men to Jesus for their salvation. Essentially, this is where the Catholic Church came from. It was founded on Peter, the first of the popes. In the gospel of Matthew, Jesus tells Simon after his confession of faith:

“Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” --Matthew 16:17-19

Basically, in this passage Jesus does a curious thing. He changes Simon’s name to Peter. Peter translated into Aramaic (the language of Jesus and his apostles) is Kepha, or rock. So what Jesus did was say that Peter is the rock. Not just any rock, but the rock on which he will build his church. Jesus also says that the church would be infallible and would preserve his truths when he says “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it…” (knowing the truth of Christianity certainly is necessary to be saved). He also gives Peter binding and loosing powers as well as the keys of heaven (strong symbols of authority) thus giving Peter ultimate teaching authority over the church. In order to preserve this authority and give the gift of teaching to the church, it had to be preserved from error in the future. This is why the successors of Peter have always been the leaders of the Church.

If Christ had not established a teaching, living, apostolic church then how could we properly understand the doctrines of the Bible? Note that 2 Peter 1:20 says “know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation”. And even the Ethiopian eunuch on his way to Damascus while trying to interpret scripture asks for Philip’s help (who is ordained as a priest in Acts 6:5). "Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied “How can I unless someone instructs me?” (Acts 8:30-31) Thus the church has the authority to properly teach the doctrines of faith for our salvation.Acts 6:1-6 shows the establishment of the priesthood under the apostles of the Church.

In the end, it is the divinely ordained teaching authority of the Church that assures me of the validity and necessity of the Christian Sacraments; especially that of Confession. The sacrament of reconcilliation (confession), the Church teaches, is the normative, necessary means by which a Christian receives the forgiveness of God. The efficacy of confession is derived from Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross, where he served as the divine substitute for our transgressions. Not only does the Church teach the need of regular confession, but the Bible also records Christ’s institution of the sacrament following his resurrection from the dead when he first appeared to the assembly of apostles (John 20:19-23):

On the evening of the first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

I hope that answers your question, if not I can elabrate.
 
like the thief on the cross, did he confess to jesus? no. but he was repentant.
and Jesus said, “today, you will be with me in paradise.”

this is just another reason i can’t ascribe to it being a time of punishment or penance, but simply a cleansing of the stain of this world. the repentant heart is what allows us to be able to submit to this cleansing (which might be painful, but not punishment).
 
But how he accomplishes the mediation is his choice.
did jesus ever say that you are only forgiven for those sins that you confess? (so even if you are sorry for everything, if you forgot something then tough luck. youll burn in purgatory for that. 😃 )
 
did jesus ever say that you are only forgiven for those sins that you confess? (so even if you are sorry for everything, if you forgot something then tough luck. youll burn in purgatory for that. 😃 )
You dont really burn in purgatory. Its not really a punishment, its more like a time of limbo. To be honest we dont know anymore about purgatory other than that. We know as much about it as we do about heaven and hell. Anything more than that is speculation and educated guesses.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top