A converts analogy of purgatory.

  • Thread starter Thread starter suupah
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Abraxsis said:
You dont really burn in purgatory. Its not really a punishment, its more like a time of limbo. To be honest we dont know anymore about purgatory other than that. We know as much about it as we do about heaven and hell. Anything more than that is speculation and educated guesses.
Click to expand...
then why does the church teach that we can get “time off” of purgatory (for ourselves and/or others) if we don’t know anything about it other than it is a state of limbo? i would disagree with the limbo argument. i equate limbo with where the saints from the old testament times waited for Jesus to come free them (the whole “He descended into hell” and freed the captives there). purgatory is a process of cleansing, not penance, not punishment. (Jesus does the cleansing, Jesus took the punishment)
 
I didnt say it was limbo but it was like a state of limbo.** Just as I said before we dont really know the specifics of what happens there anymore than we know about heaven and hell. Its all speculation.
 
Abraxsis said:
I didnt say it was limbo but it was like a state of limbo.** Just as I said before we dont really know the specifics of what happens there anymore than we know about heaven and hell. Its all speculation.
Click to expand...
and much of that speculation has become practices within the catholic church. things that led to Luther denouncing indulgences and the eventual split. if it’s just “speculation” why does the church allow people to teach it’s for punishment or penance or that time can be taken off through good deeds done here?
 
The Church teaches what it does because it knows that it does exist, what we dont know is the specifics. We know about heaven and we know we want to get there. Luther started his ‘Protest’ mainly because he felt the Church was becoming greedy. Everything else he kinda added as additional problems he had with it.
 
Abraxsis said:
The Church teaches what it does because it knows that it does exist, what we dont know is the specifics. We know about heaven and we know we want to get there. Luther started his ‘Protest’ mainly because he felt the Church was becoming greedy. Everything else he kinda added as additional problems he had with it.
Click to expand...
not exactly what you said earlier but ok. and not exactly true to Luther’s issues (good and bad) but no biggie.
 
Who Dey…Maybe you’ve had these questions posed to you but I’m interested in your response. If you don’t mind…:
  1. Are you perfect now?
  2. Will you be perfect if/when you get to heaven?
  3. If you answered no, then yes, what changed?
“Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”(Matt. 12:32)

This means that sins can be forgiven in the age to come - after death. If we are in Hell, then we will not want our sins forgiven. If we are in Heaven, then we will have no sins. So. there must be another place where sins can be forgiven.
 
bengal_fan said:
and Jesus said, “today, you will be with me in paradise.”

this is just another reason i can’t ascribe to it being a time of punishment or penance, but simply a cleansing of the stain of this world. the repentant heart is what allows us to be able to submit to this cleansing (which might be painful, but not punishment).
Click to expand...
First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
 
Lampo said:
Who Dey…Maybe you’ve had these questions posed to you but I’m interested in your response. If you don’t mind…:
  1. Are you perfect now?
  2. Will you be perfect if/when you get to heaven?
  3. If you answered no, then yes, what changed?.
Click to expand...
nope, i’m not perfect. yes, i will be made perfect. i was cleansed by the blood of Jesus (nothing for me to do but lay back and let the Great Physician do His work).
Lampo said:
“Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”(Matt. 12:32)

**This means that sins can be forgiven in the age to come **- after death. If we are in Hell, then we will not want our sins forgiven. If we are in Heaven, then we will have no sins. So. there must be another place where sins can be forgiven.
Click to expand...
not necessarily. Jesus could have been speaking in hyperbole. i read it as “it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or…” even in the age to come so don’t get your hopes up. Jesus isn’t necessarily saying that sins can be forgiven after death (i’m not saying they can’t either but you can’t immediately jump to this conclusion from this statement) but He is trying to emphasize the gravity of denying the work of the Holy Spirit.
 
Lampo said:
First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Click to expand...
well, this sort of proves my point in that it could be this or it could be that. i read it as today he is going to be with Jesus in paradise. either way, he is going to be with Jesus. and no one is perfectly clean for they have been in this world. everyone will be cleansed before entering. they aren’t paying for their sins (Jesus already did that), they are being prepared to be with the King. it is a slight distinction but an important one.
 
AgnosTheist said:
why do you need to confess at all? when you have a repentant heart, for me thats all the really matters. with a repentant heart, you are sorry for EVERYTHING, whether or not you remember every little detail. like the thief on the cross, did he confess to jesus? no. but he was repentant.
Click to expand...
Because Confession is good for the soul. 🙂
 
A kid hits a ball through a neighbor’s window. The decision he made to play ball where he wasn’t suppsed to was the “sin”. The unintended consequences of the sin was the broken window.

He goes to dad (God), and the neighbor (the church, (i.e. the priest in confession) and confesses that he sinned.

Dad pays the neighbor for the cost of the broken window (Jesus dies on the cross). The kid has to do extra chores to pay back dad money for the cost of the broken window. (penance and purgatory). This does not mean we are earning our salvation, but yet the work we do is helping imprint our hearts as to consequences of sin, and the serious nature of our decisions.

Dad sees the kid going beyond his duty and mowing the grass for the neighbor (an indulgence act), He sees true conversion and repentence, and even more conversion to the good, so he decides to “waive” the rest of the balance the kid “owes”. (A plenary indulgence).

Its a limited analogy for sure, but I think its a decent one.
 
agapewolf said:
A kid hits a ball through a neighbor’s window. The decision he made to play ball where he wasn’t suppsed to was the “sin”. The unintended consequences of the sin was the broken window.

He goes to dad (God), and the neighbor (the church, (i.e. the priest in confession) and confesses that he sinned.

Dad pays the neighbor for the cost of the broken window (Jesus dies on the cross). The kid has to do extra chores to pay back dad money for the cost of the broken window. (penance and purgatory). This does not mean we are earning our salvation, but yet the work we do is helping imprint our hearts as to consequences of sin, and the serious nature of our decisions.

Dad sees the kid going beyond his duty and mowing the grass for the neighbor (an indulgence act), He sees true conversion and repentence, and even more conversion to the good, so he decides to “waive” the rest of the balance the kid “owes”. (A plenary indulgence).

Its a limited analogy for sure, but I think its a decent one.
Click to expand...
very limited i think. thank God (dad) for my older brother (Jesus) who decided to do all the chores for me!! the analogy is limited because Jesus is left out.
 
I think purgatory may be the cleansing of the shame we carry for having sinned in the first place–especially those sins we commit after we have acknowledged and thanked God for all that Jesus has done for us. Yes, Jesus paid the price–but we still carry the shame. So purgatory is the state we are in after death until the shame of our sins are gone and we can clearly see God face to face.
 
bengal_fan said:
well, this sort of proves my point in that it could be this or it could be that. i read it as today he is going to be with Jesus in paradise. either way, he is going to be with Jesus. and no one is perfectly clean for they have been in this world. everyone will be cleansed before entering. they aren’t paying for their sins (Jesus already did that), they are being prepared to be with the King. it is a slight distinction but an important one.
Click to expand...
I think we all agree that one must go through a cleansing process before going to Heaven. Catholics call this cleansing process Purgatory.

But Catholics have an added dimension, praying for the dead. (I will address this in another post).

This is because Catholic Christians and most Protestants have a different view of the Redemption of the Cross. Catholic Church teaches that the Cross is Perfect, but not complete. Protestant that Christ PAID the price. And therefore, no penance is necessary. (Please correct me if that is wrong).

Catholic Church teaches that the Cross is Perfect, but not complete.

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is*** lacking *** in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,

CC teaches that Christ’s died for the FORGIVENESS of signs, but we must repent (do penance)

Jesus died for the sins of everyone, even those who don’t believe in Him. It is up to us to UNITE ourselves in Christ’s suffering in COMPLETE was is Lacking.

OK, I use that verse all over the place, but I just recently rediscovered it, and it hit me like a ton of bricks! 🙂
 
Rocky said:
I think purgatory may be the cleansing of the shame we carry for having sinned in the first place–especially those sins we commit after we have acknowledged and thanked God for all that Jesus has done for us. Yes, Jesus paid the price–but we still carry the shame. So purgatory is the state we are in after death until the shame of our sins are gone and we can clearly see God face to face.
Click to expand...
maybe, but that is still not a God-induced punishment, it is self-induced. God wants to cleanse that from us, not punish us for our sins.
 
bengal_fan said:
amen to that!
Click to expand...
Now as to praying for the dead, II Machabees 12:46, Judas M. did this:

Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Although Machabees (forgive me for slaughtering this word) is not accepted by most Protestants as Divinely inspired, it was part of the Canon of Scripture until Martin Luther threw it out. Catholic Christians accept the Deuteroconical books as the Canaon of the Bible.

More to come, just trying to keep you hanging in there 🙂
 
agapewolf said:
A kid hits a ball through a neighbor’s window. The decision he made to play ball where he wasn’t suppsed to was the “sin”. The unintended consequences of the sin was the broken window.

He goes to dad (God), and the neighbor (the church, (i.e. the priest in confession) and confesses that he sinned.

Dad pays the neighbor for the cost of the broken window (Jesus dies on the cross). The kid has to do extra chores to pay back dad money for the cost of the broken window. (penance and purgatory). This does not mean we are earning our salvation, but yet the work we do is helping imprint our hearts as to consequences of sin, and the serious nature of our decisions.

Dad sees the kid going beyond his duty and mowing the grass for the neighbor (an indulgence act), He sees true conversion and repentence, and even more conversion to the good, so he decides to “waive” the rest of the balance the kid “owes”. (A plenary indulgence).

Its a limited analogy for sure, but I think its a decent one.
Click to expand...
Fabulous! I should have read it before my post!
 
qui_est_ce said:
CC teaches that Christ’s died for the FORGIVENESS of signs, but we must repent (do penance)
Click to expand...
protestants teach that we must repent also. the problem is, repent doesn’t mean to do penance. it literally means to turn 180 degrees away from where you were.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top