A converts analogy of purgatory.

[agapewolf]

very limited i think. thank God (dad) for my older brother (Jesus) who decided to do all the chores for me!! the analogy is limited because Jesus is left out.

No it didn’t… read it again…Dad pays the neighbor (Jesus dies on the cross)

 

[bengal_fan]

God=Jesus They are one.

of course They are one, but They are also three. “Dad” is God the Father, older brother (which is why the analogy isn’t a great one) is Jesus. He is called our older brother all through the NT (by Paul especially).

 

[bengal_fan]

No it didn’t… read it again…Dad pays the neighbor (Jesus dies on the cross)

okay, read it again, and i see what you are getting at. the problem then lies in the fact that God doesn’t ask us to pay Him back. He asks us to (oh boy this is gonna sound cheesy… sorry Haley Joel Osmet wherever you are…) pay it forward.

 

[agapewolf]

Geez…read it AGAIN…you will see my explanation of that. Its not about oweing a debt. its about conversion of heart.

This does not mean we are earning our salvation, but yet the work we do is helping imprint our hearts as to consequences of sin, and the serious nature of our decisions.

Please don’t take the words literally…parallel them to the analogy.

 

[bengal_fan]

Geez…read it AGAIN…you will see my explanation of that. Its not about oweing a debt. its about conversion of heart.

This does not mean we are earning our salvation, but yet the work we do is helping imprint our hearts as to consequences of sin, and the serious nature of our decisions.

Please don’t take the words literally…parallel them to the analogy.

so it’s just to teach us a lesson? that’s what purgatory is? the last “lesson” we must learn before entering heaven?

 

[qui_est_ce]

maybe, but that is still not a God-induced punishment, it is self-induced. God wants to cleanse that from us, not punish us for our sins.

Wait a minute!! We punish ourselves by sinning! Sin is an act which separates us from complete union with God. Mortal Sin is a complete separation from God. We send ourselves to Hell, God doesn’t do it!

Now to continue with the praying for the dead (i.e. Catholic Christian teach of Purgatory).

Not much else can be explicity found in the Bible as to praying for the dead, BUT, we can look at the practices of the early Christians, those who were eyewitness to the Apostles teachings. I’m talking about those who HEARD the word, because it was not yet written for all to read.

Early Christian practices are the basis for what CC call “Tradition.”

Inscriptions in the Catacombs, where early Christians used to gather, reveal a lot of their practices. Many speak of the faith in the one God, and Christ, his Son, his Holy Spirit (this is where Trinity comes from, which we see *in retrospect *in Scripture. They speak of membership in the body of Christ through baptism, the relations with the dead through prayer.

For more, you will have to “look it up” yourself. It’s very, very interesting to read. Make sure you chose a non-biased source.

 

[qui_est_ce]

protestants teach that we must repent also. the problem is, repent doesn’t mean to do penance. it literally means to turn 180 degrees away from where you were.

You are correct regarding repent vs. penance. CC teaches we must do penance, because that is how we complete what is lacking in Christ’s suffering.

Yes, one must turn their lives 180 degrees IF THEY HAD BEEN LIVING IN SIN!

What about somebody like me, who sins, but never led a life of Sin. How could I turn 180 degrees? I have always put my entire faith in God, I always tried not to sin, even as a teenager. I have always and presently evangelize myself. If I did a 180, I’d be on the wrong path!

To me, faith is a journey, not a one time experience. I don’t deny one can be “born again” in the Fundamentalist usage, but for many people like myself, I had small faith when I was small, and as I grew older, more faith became fuller. Does that make sense?

 

[qui_est_ce]

okay, read it again, and i see what you are getting at. the problem then lies in the fact that God doesn’t ask us to pay Him back. He asks us to (oh boy this is gonna sound cheesy… sorry Haley Joel Osmet wherever you are…) pay it forward.

I know you didn’t mean it this way, but I see INDULGENCE in “pay it forward.” :crying:

Sorry, I can’t help it. I read through the eyes of an evangelized Catholic Christian.

 

[bengal_fan]

They speak of membership in the body of Christ through baptism, the relations with the dead through prayer.

of course i would interpret these inscriptions as two things:

1. the church didn’t seem to practice it as it is not in the Bible OR the extra biblical sources (i.e. letters of the ECF, didache, etc.). maybe it was a leftover of the pagan religions many of the greek converts came out of.
2. i think these speak more to the saints in heaven being able to still look down on us and intercede for us. the “great cloud of witnesses”

 

[bengal_fan]

You are correct regarding repent vs. penance. CC teaches we must do penance, because that is how we complete what is lacking in Christ’s suffering.

Yes, one must turn their lives 180 degrees IF THEY HAD BEEN LIVING IN SIN!

What about somebody like me, who sins, but never led a life of Sin. How could I turn 180 degrees? I have always put my entire faith in God, I always tried not to sin, even as a teenager. I have always and presently evangelize myself. If I did a 180, I’d be on the wrong path!

To me, faith is a journey, not a one time experience. I don’t deny one can be “born again” in the Fundamentalist usage, but for many people like myself, I had small faith when I was small, and as I grew older, more faith became fuller. Does that make sense?

i agree that salvation is a process. but if you were sinning, then you were “living a life of sin”. maybe you are “better” (i know not your word, i’m using it here) than others but you were still separated from God by your sinful actions and your sinful nature. you still need (as i do daily need) to turn from those sins (repent). i think the “lacking” that you are referring to is that just because Jesus died, doesn’t mean everyone is reconciled to God. this is why we participate in a “ministry of reconciliation” (hence God uses us to spread His love to the hearts of others).

 

[agapewolf]

There are consequences of sin to others. There is also the seperation from God.

Even though we repent of our sin, and confess to God, there are still earthly consequences that exist because of our sin. Jesus’ death paid for our seperation from God, but our free will still causes the consequences.

If we steal $100 from someone, even if we repent for the sin, the person we stole from is still less $100. We still must “repay”.
Jesus death on the cross does not put an extra $100 into the victim’s bank account. The consequences and aftermath still exist.

That is why the kid pays dad with extra chores. Jesus’ death did not take care of them. The window is still broken and needs to be repaired.

 

[bengal_fan]

There are consequences of sin to others. There is also the seperation from God.

Even though we repent of our sin, and confess to God, there are still earthly consequences that exist because of our sin. Jesus’ death paid for our seperation from God, but our free will still causes the consequences.

If we steal $100 from someone, even if we repent for the sin, the person we stole from is still less $100. We still must “repay”.
Jesus death on the cross does not put an extra $100 into the victim’s bank account. The consequences and aftermath still exist.

That is why the kid pays dad with extra chores. Jesus’ death did not take care of them. The window is still broken and needs to be repaired.

and we experience those consequences here on earth, not in the afterlife because our debt to God has been paid.

 

[agapewolf]

and we experience those consequences here on earth, not in the afterlife because our debt to God has been paid.

This is incorrect. Even after we die, the consequences still exist. People are still angry with dead relatives for whatever reasons, long after they are gone. The person we stole from is still missing the $100. The earthly consequences still exist. We cannot always see the effects of our sin while still living.

Even while on earth, we cannot always repay exactly the harms we have caused. Some consequences cannot be undone, therefore penance and prayer are done instead. After life, during purgatory, whatever means God sees fit (purging by fire) is His love and ultimate justice to us for the harms we’ve caused to others.

 

[qui_est_ce]

"bangal:

i agree that salvation is a process. but if you were sinning, then you were “living a life of sin”. maybe you are “better” (i know not your word, i’m using it here) than others but you were still separated from God by your sinful actions and your sinful nature. you still need (as i do daily need) to turn from those sins (repent).

Yet, I continue to sin. Therefore I repent and must do penance. I didn’t live IN sin. You had said repent and change your life. I mistook you to mean you only had to repent once, change your life, and all would be good.

i think the “lacking” that you are referring to is that just because Jesus died, doesn’t mean everyone is reconciled to God. this is why we participate in a “ministry of reconciliation” (hence God uses us to spread His love to the hearts of others).

Well, I would go a step further and say we need to unite with Christ in his sufferings. This means penance. Penance could be denying yourself something or doing something really hard, like being nice to mean people. (we should do it anyway).

 

[qui_est_ce]

of course i would interpret these inscriptions as two things:

1. i think these speak more to the saints in heaven being able to still look down on us and intercede for us. the “great cloud of witnesses”

You mean the Communion of Saints?

 

[qui_est_ce]

of course i would interpret these inscriptions as two things:

1. the church didn’t seem to practice it as it is not in the Bible OR the extra biblical sources (i.e. letters of the ECF, didache, etc.). maybe it was a leftover of the pagan religions many of the greek converts came out of.

"

I disagree with that. These are people who were eyewitnesses to the Apostles. I don’t believe the early Christians continued pagan practices AT ALL. .

But we may have to agree to disagree, because I do not know much about pagan practices outside of Greek Mythology.

 

[qui_est_ce]

and we experience those consequences here on earth, not in the afterlife because our debt to God has been paid.

This needs to be discussed further.

1. Cross being payment for sin as vsforgiveness of sin.
2. Reparations are only done on earth.

Got to go to choir practice - Sing for Jesus!:angel1:

 

[Lampo]

nope, i’m not perfect. yes, i will be made perfect.**Catholics have a name for “being made perfect” - Purgatory - ** i was cleansed by the blood of Jesus (nothing for me to do but lay back and let the Great Physician do His work).

If you are “cleansed by the blood of Jesus (nothing for me to do but lay back and let the Great Physician do His work).” I ABSOLUTELY ASK THIS NEXT QUESTION IN HOPES TO GET MY POINT ACROSS AND BY NO MEANS AM SUGGESTING YOU DO THIS!!!:

If you are “cleansed by the blood of Jesus (nothing for me to do but lay back and let the Great Physician do His work).” Why wouldn’t you commit suicide (since you don’t have to obey His commandments) so you can have eternal life with Him?

 

[Lampo]

Who Dey…I think I should ask this question of you and I hope it doesn’t derail the thread. Are you infallible? If not, could your entire interpretation of Scripture be wrong? If it could be wrong, why is yours better than mine and the Church’s and why should I listen to yours?

 

[Lampo]

(nothing for me to do but lay back and let the Great Physician do His work).

You would think that if anyone in history had assurance of salvation, like you do, that it would be St. Paul. Right?

He doesn’t. 1 Cor. 9:27 - "No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.".