A converts analogy of purgatory.

[brother_dan_mac]

Wait a minute!! We punish ourselves by sinning! Sin is an act which separates us from complete union with God. Mortal Sin is a complete separation from God. We send ourselves to Hell, God doesn’t do it!

Now to continue with the praying for the dead (i.e. Catholic Christian teach of Purgatory).

Not much else can be explicity found in the Bible as to praying for the dead, BUT, we can look at the practices of the early Christians, those who were eyewitness to the Apostles teachings. I’m talking about those who HEARD the word, because it was not yet written for all to read.

Early Christian practices are the basis for what CC call “Tradition.”

Inscriptions in the Catacombs, where early Christians used to gather, reveal a lot of their practices. Many speak of the faith in the one God, and Christ, his Son, his Holy Spirit (this is where Trinity comes from, which we see *in retrospect *in Scripture. They speak of membership in the body of Christ through baptism, the relations with the dead through prayer.

For more, you will have to “look it up” yourself. It’s very, very interesting to read. Make sure you chose a non-biased source.

wASN’T THERE SOMETHING IN GEN. ABOUT [JOB OR SOMEONE] THAT WENT TO WAR, AND AFER THE BATTLE, SOMEONE FOUND HIM PRAYING FOR A FALLEN COMRADE? I BELIEVE THIS IS WHERE IT IS ALSO QUOTED THET THE SAINTS ARE IN CONSTANT INTERCESSION FOR US…

 

[brother_dan_mac]

Anyone?..

 

[Lampo]

(nothing for me to do but lay back and let the Great Physician do His work).

Sounds like you subscribe to the false doctrine of “once saved always saved.” Who Dey, I TRULY hope that you abandon this DANGEROUS doctrine! Especially after being presented with the truth of the Catholic Church in this forum. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE keep investigating the Catholic Church and all that she claims. She can back up EVERYTHING!

 

[bengal_fan]

Sounds like you subscribe to the false doctrine of “once saved always saved.” Who Dey, I TRULY hope that you abandon this DANGEROUS doctrine! Especially after being presented with the truth of the Catholic Church in this forum. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE keep investigating the Catholic Church and all that she claims. She can back up EVERYTHING!

no i don’t ascribe to OSAS. my point in that is that i can’t do anything other than trust in the process of my salvation. the grace that is imparted to me because of my trust allows me (and inspires me) to do the work God created me for.

 

[qui_est_ce]

of course i would interpret these inscriptions as two things:

1. the church didn’t seem to practice it as it is not in the Bible OR the extra biblical sources (i.e. letters of the ECF, didache, etc.). maybe it was a leftover of the pagan religions many of the greek converts came out of.

I respectfully disagree with you on the teachings of the ECF on this subject. To say that the early Christians praying for the dead could have been a leftover of the pagan religions of the Greek converts flies directly in the face of 11 Machabees 12:46.
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
We know the early Christians used the Deuterocanonical books, which includes 1st and 2nd Machabees.

Even today the Jews have their Day of Atonement. And they rejected the Deuterocanonical books late in the 1st century, because they had no Hebrew version of them. Today, thanks to archeological discoveries, such as at Qumran and the Dead Sea Scrolls, we have fragments of the DC in Hebrew .

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterocanonical

 

[qui_est_ce]

no i don’t ascribe to OSAS. my point in that is that i can’t do anything other than trust in the process of my salvation. the grace that is imparted to me because of my trust allows me (and inspires me) to do the work God created me for.

Well, it sure sounded like you ascribed to this when you said that repentance requires a 180d turn (from sin)

 

[bengal_fan]

i guess here is my final reply on this thread (i have enjoyed the discussion be we are now going around and around on this).

i believe in purgatory. i do not believe i can do anything to pay for my sins. i believe that any sin that i have committed, if i have a repentant heart, i will be forgiven (note i didn’t say AM forgiven because i believe i can give up the free gift of salvation at anytime by turning my heart away from God). i believe that once i am dead (in this world for we know that those in Christ are not truly dead but truly alive) i will go through a process of cleansing (Paul says fire will be used to burn the stain of this fallen world and my fallen nature away) so that i am presented pure before God. i am not paying for any sin as Jesus has already paid for my sins (and yours as well). i respect you if you think it is a payment for sins committed by going through this process, but i disagree. i don’t see in all my study of scripture AND history (meaning ECF and other writings) where we are asked to pay for our own sins. the deeds we do will be judged as to whether they were done in faith or not (Paul says in Romans anything done without faith is sin) and that all of us that is not connected to our faith will be burned away and all of us that is connected to our faith will pass through the fire into presence of God. i am not a “once saved always saved” guy, i believe in the communion of saints, i believe that works flow from the saving grace we received through our faith. i believe in the sacraments and that we experience God directly through them. i just don’t believe that God asks us to pay for our sins because Jesus did this. i believe it takes a great deal of humility to admit that there is nothing in me deserving of spending eternity in God’s presence, but He desires me there nonetheless and has made the Way for me to be there. i do not think we can aid in anyone’s “time” in purgatory as the process takes as long as the process takes. we can pray for them through the process (as there is possibly the element of pain when dealing with burning things off our soul) but they are not paying a debt owed, they are being cleaned and a good cleaning can take some time. hence i don’t buy into indulgences the way the church teaches them. i see indulgences as an extra opportunity to experience God because of a position we’ve put ourselves in (i.e. going to mass every Friday in Lent allows us to experience God in a way that those who don’t do it don’t get to experience). all this to say, i believe in purgatory, just maybe not in the exact way you do and since the church has never officially defined exactly what happens there and what the process looks like, this is one of those areas that i would deem non-essential, so charity is extended.

 

[bengal_fan]

Well, it sure sounded like you ascribed to this when you said that repentance requires a 180d turn (from sin)

i don’t think so at all, i was simply using the word as it is defined. the word for repentance literally means a 180 degree turning away from. i believe we have to repent numerous times throughout our lives… it’s not a one time thing.

and, i’m out

 

[qui_est_ce]

i guess here is my final reply on this thread (i have enjoyed the discussion be we are now going around and around on this).

i believe in purgatory. i do not believe i can do anything to pay for my sins. i believe that any sin that i have committed, if i have a repentant heart, i will be forgiven (note i didn’t say AM forgiven because i believe i can give up the free gift of salvation at anytime by turning my heart away from God). i believe that once i am dead (in this world for we know that those in Christ are not truly dead but truly alive) i will go through a process of cleansing (Paul says fire will be used to burn the stain of this fallen world and my fallen nature away) so that i am presented pure before God. i am not paying for any sin as Jesus has already paid for my sins (and yours as well). i respect you if you think it is a payment for sins committed by going through this process, but i disagree. i don’t see in all my study of scripture AND history (meaning ECF and other writings) where we are asked to pay for our own sins. the deeds we do will be judged as to whether they were done in faith or not (Paul says in Romans anything done without faith is sin) and that all of us that is not connected to our faith will be burned away and all of us that is connected to our faith will pass through the fire into presence of God. i am not a “once saved always saved” guy, i believe in the communion of saints, i believe that works flow from the saving grace we received through our faith. i believe in the sacraments and that we experience God directly through them. i just don’t believe that God asks us to pay for our sins because Jesus did this. i believe it takes a great deal of humility to admit that there is nothing in me deserving of spending eternity in God’s presence, but He desires me there nonetheless and has made the Way for me to be there. i do not think we can aid in anyone’s “time” in purgatory as the process takes as long as the process takes. we can pray for them through the process (as there is possibly the element of pain when dealing with burning things off our soul) but they are not paying a debt owed, they are being cleaned and a good cleaning can take some time. hence i don’t buy into indulgences the way the church teaches them. i see indulgences as an extra opportunity to experience God because of a position we’ve put ourselves in (i.e. going to mass every Friday in Lent allows us to experience God in a way that those who don’t do it don’t get to experience). all this to say, i believe in purgatory, just maybe not in the exact way you do and since the church has never officially defined exactly what happens there and what the process looks like, this is one of those areas that i would deem non-essential, so charity is extended.

Thank you for taking the time to share your beliefs.

 

[bengal_fan]

Thank you for taking the time to share your beliefs.

last thing i promise

i did mean to thank everyone for being so civil. there are soooo many threads in here that sink lower and lower as people disagree. i didn’t feel demeaned in here and i hope i didn’t insult anybody.

 

[Lampo]

no i don’t ascribe to OSAS. my point in that is that i can’t do anything other than trust in the process of my salvation. the grace that is imparted to me because of my trust allows me (and inspires me) to do the work God created me for.

Whew! I’m glad to hear that.

 

[Lampo]

It’s been a pleasure Bengal Fan. I bet sometime in the future you will convert to the Catholic Church and the Church will be that much richer!! God bless!

 

[qui_est_ce]

It’s been a pleasure Bengal Fan. I bet sometime in the future you will convert to the Catholic Church and the Church will be that much richer!! God bless!

Amen Even if he doesn’t convert, we have already become richer because of his insights.

 

[suupah]

and Jesus said, “today, you will be with me in paradise.”

this is just another reason i can’t ascribe to it being a time of punishment or penance, but simply a cleansing of the stain of this world. the repentant heart is what allows us to be able to submit to this cleansing (which might be painful, but not punishment).

I don’t think you are being punished in the sense that you are atoning for your sin. I think the punishment word is used to imply that it isn’t a pleasant experience. Being separated from your sin is a painful experience that feels like punishment.

I am going to try and make a comparison to something i have been through and I hope it works. I would liken purgatory to the unpleasant experience of parting with a vice such as smoking (mine), drinking or drug addiction. You are forgiven your vice, by your loved ones the moment you admit it and turn away from it, but then you are going to still pay the price for having been addicted to this substance or activity with the promise that at the end you will be free of it.

When I quit smoking those around me supported me anyway they could (like prayers for those in purgatory). then followed a period that was very unpleasant and felt like punishment for my smoking. After a longwhile i was released of my vice and have never felt better.

 

[Lampo]

and Jesus said, “today, you will be with me in paradise.”

this is just another reason i can’t ascribe to it being a time of punishment or penance, but simply a cleansing of the stain of this world. the repentant heart is what allows us to be able to submit to this cleansing (which might be painful, but not punishment).

There was no punctuation when Holy Scripture was written. Perhaps it reads, “And I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.” Catch the difference? Perhaps the thief FIRST must be cleansed(Purgatory) then he will be with Jesus in Paradise.

 

[bengal_fan]

I don’t think you are being punished in the sense that you are atoning for your sin. I think the punishment word is used to imply that it isn’t a pleasant experience. Being separated from your sin is a painful experience that feels like punishment.

I am going to try and make a comparison to something i have been through and I hope it works. I would liken purgatory to the unpleasant experience of parting with a vice such as smoking (mine), drinking or drug addiction. You are forgiven your vice, by your loved ones the moment you admit it and turn away from it, but then you are going to still pay the price for having been addicted to this substance or activity with the promise that at the end you will be free of it.

When I quit smoking those around me supported me anyway they could (like prayers for those in purgatory). then followed a period that was very unpleasant and felt like punishment for my smoking. After a longwhile i was released of my vice and have never felt better.

i can go along with this reasoning because i would call it “getting clean”. so it is still a cleansing process. i never said it didn’t hurt, i just said it wasn’t punishment.