A Correlation between Secularism and Tyrany

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"As I said: never has war or genocide been commited in the name of atheism. Just mentioning dictators who happened to be nonreligious does not count; they did their ills in the name of ideology. Some enforced atheism, some enforced christianity.

I am open to changing my mind, to being disproven. Show to me evidence that indicates there is a correlation between secularism and tyranny, and I will accept it."

This is what I was told by a guy I am debating. He claims that atheism has its hands clean of blood, where as religion does not. Stalin, Mao, Robespierre, he claims all used ideology and did not kill in the name of atheism. So Atheism can’t be blamed in people’s deaths the way Christianity and religion can when tyrants have killed in its name.

Can someone help me come up with a correlation between secularism and tyranny please?
 
"As I said: never has war or genocide been commited in the name of atheism. Just mentioning dictators who happened to be nonreligious does not count; they did their ills in the name of ideology. Some enforced atheism, some enforced christianity.

I am open to changing my mind, to being disproven. Show to me evidence that indicates there is a correlation between secularism and tyranny, and I will accept it."

This is what I was told by a guy I am debating. He claims that atheism has its hands clean of blood, where as religion does not. Stalin, Mao, Robespierre, he claims all used ideology and did not kill in the name of atheism. So Atheism can’t be blamed in people’s deaths the way Christianity and religion can when tyrants have killed in its name.

Can someone help me come up with a correlation between secularism and tyranny please?
Your discussion won’t get anywhere unless ‘ideology’ is properly defined first. If ideology can require atheism as a necessary, though perhaps not sufficient, condition for either its practical or theoretical identification or national attainment/maintenance as such, then one would only be left to argue about the relevant causal influence of the atheism per se, as distinct from all the other important ideological components.

So let’s consider Marxism-Leninism in the words of Lenin himself:
Marxism is materialism. As such, it is as relentlessly hostile to religion as was the materialism of the eighteenth-century Encyclopaedists or the materialism of Feuerbach. This is beyond doubt. But the dialectical materialism of Marx and Engels goes further than the Encyclopaedists and Feuerbach, for it applies the materialist philosophy to the domain of history, to the domain of the social sciences. We must combat religion—that is the ABC of all materialism, and consequently of Marxism. But Marxism is not a materialism which has stopped at the ABC. Marxism goes further. It says: We must know how to combat religion, and in order to do so we must explain the source of faith and religion among the masses in a materialist way. The combating of religion cannot be confined to abstract ideological preaching, and it must not be reduced to such preaching. It must be linked up with the concrete practice of the class movement, which aims at eliminating the social roots of religion. [Actually, just read Wikipedia’s page on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist–Leninist_atheism”]Marxist-Leninist atheism for merely the first evidence that came to me.]

The difference between religion and ideology seems to be that the former calls for the believer to adopt and practice its tenets in pursuit of a blissful utopia in heaven that can only be attained in another life, after death, through great loyalty and sacrifice; while the latter calls for the same in pursuit of a blissful utopia on earth that can only be attained in this life, before death, through great loyalty and sacrifice.
 
According to Eric Voegelin, as explained in this article,
In The New Science of Politics (1951), Voegelin writes that an important effect of Christianity in the period between the disintegration of the Roman Empire in the West and the High Middle Ages was the “de-divinization of existence.” What does this mean? For Jews and Christians, nature is Creation, but it is itself neither a divinity nor in any way a proper object for veneration. People should direct their worship lovingly to the transcendent God, whose non-interference in daily life guarantees freedom of conscience and self-responsibility, not to images or objects. Another effect of Christianity was to replace the mundane experience of the divine, symbolized by the elemental gods of polytheism, with experience of the divine as a transcendent ground or goal. Now in this goal, the imperfections of the natural world and the social order might be redeemed, but, importantly, not in this life, where only degrees of amelioration are possible. The Gospel, much more articulately than Pagan wisdom, tells men that they must reconcile themselves to the limitations inherent in existence. The Gospel, as Voegelin argues, devolved a new demand for the delay of gratification on human consciousness, from which stems the whole range of specifically Christian ethics and from the impatient reaction to which stems the whole range of Gnostic tantrums.

Voegelin argues for faith, which postpones certainty, and which incorporates doubt, as essential to normative Christianity. Uncertainty and doubt afflict some people, however, with terrific anxiety; and when, historically, these anxious parties could not fall back into pre-Christian forms, which had gradually disappeared, they availed themselves of “the Gnosis” that formed “an accompaniment of Christianity from its very beginnings.” Voegelin writes: “Gnostic speculation overcame the uncertainty of faith by receding from transcendence and endowing man and his intramundane range of action with the meaning of eschatological fulfillment.” The new Gnostic rebels against reality thought that they could, in other words, realize in this natural world, using the crooked timber of humanity, the perfection and redemption that Christianity postpones to the City of God; and that they could become gods themselves, deposing the Gospel deity, and annulling the patience that faith demands.

. . . [T]he rebel against reality, determined to erect his second reality, can tolerate no vestige of that which he despises, lest it remind him of his petulant inadequacy. “The revolution of the Gnostics,” writes Voegelin, “has for its aim,” one at least among others, “the monopoly of existential representation.” It cannot abide challenges or alternatives to itself. In addition to this, the Gnostic assault on reality seeks “a change in the nature of man and the establishment of a transfigured society.”
And
Christian theology shares with Pagan Monotheism (Plato’s and Aristotle’s) the insistence, founded in experience, that nothing is perfectible in this world, and that disappointment, resentment, unjust shares, bad luck, arguments with one’s wife, pain, debt, and all the rest belong ineradicably to the mortal realm. The most that a just political order can do is to ameliorate the worst cases of these woes.

. . . Christian theology says that perfection will exist only at the End of Days, when, after the Last Judgment, the righteous will enjoy their translation into Paradise; but by the time of Augustine, Christianity had more or less reconciled itself to the non-occurrence in the foreseeable future of the End of Days, the Greek term for which in Revelations is the eschaton. Christianity declares that good people must make the best of mortal existence because the eschaton is indefinitely postponed; people must adhere to morality, love one another, and act as stewards over the earth, while reconciling themselves to fallibility and imperfection.

When Voegelin writes that impatience to immanentize the eschaton constitutes the essence of Gnosticism, he refers to the petulant dogma that one need not wait, without schedule, to be translated into Paradise, but that one can, by his own self-salvaging activity, realize Paradise in this world. The skeptical claim that such a work is impossible is more of a focus for the Gnostic than the Gnostic’s own claim that such a work is actualizable because the first, the standing, the intuitive and plausible claim is what blocks and scandalizes the Gnostic’s own project. From this mis-priority of arguments stems the desperate nastiness of the Gnostic towards those who criticize or disagree with him.

Voegelin attributes these attempts to “immanentize the eschaton” unto Gnostic patterns of thought, however, which is obviously not quite the same as atheism, at least conceptually. In practice, on the other hand, any ideology which aims to abolish God or religion inevitably must substitute something else in its place. Whether this is incidental, perhaps simply due to an innate instinct in our species, or rather by intentional design of some sort, the fact historically is that political ideology functions to a strong degree as a substitute for religion; and this is often in a form that’s blatantly hostile to God/religion (arguably as its “new competition” which thus cannot ignore what it must dethrone). Even if it’s not logically necessary, a system of belief that abolishes superior deities will frequently convert Man into the deity-by-default, the new apex of the hierarchy of being. And now he’s got to build up to a heaven for himself, the tower of Babel if you like. (And this is done, naturally, by killing people. A lot of 'em. Like, several million.)
 
Didn’t Marx claim that religion is the opiate of the masses? If you view religion as your enemy to creating utopia, isn’t your atheism a motivating factor for persecuting the religious? Without your atheism would you feel compelled to eliminate religion?
 
Didn’t Marx claim that religion is the opiate of the masses? If you view religion as your enemy to creating utopia, isn’t your atheism a motivating factor for persecuting the religious? Without your atheism would you feel compelled to eliminate religion?
He gives this in contrast to your question…

"Marx’ quote is probably one of the most misrepresented quotes in existence. The full quote is:
“Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun.”

then he says… "As you can see from the last paragraph, the quote in its fullness calls for critical thinking, not the abolition of religion.
As for your question- atheism is neither a means by which I will achieve utopia, nor does it lead me to “persecute” the religious. It is one stand on one issue. It’s being realistic. As I am sure I have said before, I will respect religious practice at any time, except in the case where it violates humans rights. Ethically I find it childish and objectionable, but let people believe in whatever crude deity they want so long as nobody is hurt in the process. Unfortunately, quite a lot of people are hurt in the process of belief worldwide, and that’s why I am outspokenly critical of it. I could cite US religious persecution of homosexuals- and that’s just one of religion’s milder crimes. "
 
Can someone help me come up with a correlation between secularism and tyranny please?
What good is a correlation, unless you can also show causation? And no such causation exists.

If correlation is all you’re after, then history is rife with examples of correlation between religious belief and tyranny. Unfortunately for the religious, this correlation is accompanied by plausible and well-documented causation.

You’re on a hiding to nothing if you want to show that secularism causes tyranny, and doubly so if you simultaneously want to claim that religion doesn’t.
 
Strictly speaking, neither atheism nor religion are really the cause of tyranny, as so defined, but dogma most certainly is. And certain religions have more than their fair shares of dogma behind them. Atheism, by comparison, has virtually none.

Atheists like Stalin, when they commit grand-scale atrocities, do so because they’re fueled by different ideologies. Communism in Stalin’s case, preceded by a long legacy of credulity programmed into his people by earlier czars.

The argument is thus - you will not find a society in the history of the world that ever went down the tubes because people were thinking too critically.
 
Strictly speaking, neither atheism nor religion are really the cause of tyranny, as so defined, but dogma most certainly is. And certain religions have more than their fair shares of dogma behind them. Atheism, by comparison, has virtually none.
That’s a fair comment - religious belief gives people the conviction that whatever they do, that’s what God wants. If they can convince themselves that God sponsors their actions, then there’s no limit to the atrocity that can ensue.

It’s amazing how frequently it turns out that God wants people to do what they themselves want to do.
 
Strictly speaking, neither atheism nor religion are really the cause of tyranny, as so defined, but dogma most certainly is. And certain religions have more than their fair shares of dogma behind them. Atheism, by comparison, has virtually none.
(NB Discussion of atheism is banned.)

Materialism has its dogmas but they are not usually stated explicitly, e.g. everything is derived from matter and everything has a physical cause.
Atheists like Stalin, when they commit grand-scale atrocities, do so because they’re fueled by different ideologies. Communism in Stalin’s case, preceded by a long legacy of credulity programmed into his people by earlier czars.
Marxist Communism is based on the theory of dialectical materialism which entails violent revolution by the workers to overthrow capitalism.
 
What good is a correlation, unless you can also show causation? And no such causation exists.

If correlation is all you’re after, then history is rife with examples of correlation between religious belief and tyranny. Unfortunately for the religious, this correlation is accompanied by plausible and well-documented causation.

You’re on a hiding to nothing if you want to show that secularism causes tyranny, and doubly so if you simultaneously want to claim that religion doesn’t.
It sound like you’re taking the position that secularism guards against tyranny. This is an even stronger position than the OP.
 
Strictly speaking, neither atheism nor religion are really the cause of tyranny, as so defined, but dogma most certainly is. And certain religions have more than their fair shares of dogma behind them. Atheism, by comparison, has virtually none.
Make that none. Atheism, defined as the lack of belief in gods, isn’t an -ism, isn’t a worldview with dogmatic tenets…or any tenets at all. It’s a position on a single question.

Secularism, however, can arguably be considered a worldview or a system of organizing society. As such, it’s conceivable that someone could kill “in the name of secularism,” but in the case of the secularism we now see in the West, which is intertwined with humanism, a worldview that repudiates genocide and puts a great deal of value on human life, it would be almost impossible for anyone to kill in the name of that form of secularism (and still be logically consistent).

Hitler killed in the name of a nutty racist philosophy, and Stalin killed in the name of a nutty Communist ideology. Both of those nutty positions are consistent with atheism and arguably consistent with some form of secularism, but the atrocities that resulted from those positions cannot be argued to be caused by atheism or secularism (and certainly not caused by the humanist secularism currently practiced in Western countries).

Please observe the difference between an action being consistent with X and an action being caused by X. If I yell at someone, that action is consistent with not being friends with that person, but we could hardly argue that my lacking a friendship with the person caused me to yell at him (if that were the case, I would be hollering all day long at everyone who is not my friend). Instead, the cause would be something like, “The guy dented my car.”

And just a note to the moderators: this is a discussion about causality and about secularism. It is not a discussion about atheism – a subject that came up as a brief, tangential point. As it is a discussion about causality, it is well-placed in the philosophy section and deserves to remain open.
 
Even if it’s not logically necessary, a system of belief that abolishes superior deities will frequently convert Man into the deity-by-default, the new apex of the hierarchy of being.
One could argue that modern-day Western Secular Humanism – which places an extremely high value on human life and opposes genocide – is an example of a non-religious ideology that is also anti-genocide.
And now he’s got to build up to a heaven for himself, the tower of Babel if you like. (And this is done, naturally, by killing people. A lot of 'em. Like, several million.)
Your thinking on this subject needs more nuance. A lot of it. Or, like, any at all. Totally, dude.
 
I am actually of the thought that neither theism nor atheism have had any blood on their hands, being the roots. However the branches of BOTH secular as well as religious, both have plenty of blood.
 
I am actually of the thought that neither theism nor atheism have had any blood on their hands, being the roots. However the branches of BOTH secular as well as religious, both have plenty of blood.
As far as philosophical starting positions go, the opposite of atheism is probably deism - both are pretty non-specific.

The move from deism to theism seems to require certain assumptions about the nature of the deity in question - theism implies a personal god, and persons have preferences. Theistic religions tend to assume that they - or, at least, their leaders - have privileged access to knowledge of the preferences and will and demands of the god in question, and this provides the impetus to act upon these supposedly divine preferences.

Atheist thinkers have tended to draw - not unjust - comparisons between earthly tyrants and the god described in the Bible. Christopher Hitchens is only the most recent public intellectual to have done so - his opposition to religion was rooted in his opposition to totalitarianism of all kinds.

Certainly, neither atheism nor deism are bound, in any philosophical (or, by extension, political) sense, by considerations of divine preference. However, as I said, these are both starting points. Where you go from there depends upon many things, and atheists are certainly not immune from having beliefs about the way the world is and ought to be. Political leaders who are atheists certainly may have ideologies to which they are intellectually wedded. Hitler had his concepts of racial purity and the ascendancy of the German people to motivate his policy; Stalin had his paranoia and his bloody-minded pursuit of absolute power, cloaked in his public avowal of Marxist/communist principles.

This is certainly not to say, furthermore, that nominally theistic political leaders have not merely commandeered scriptural support for their worldly ambitions - the Bible is vague enough to be used to support just about anything, after all. But it’s fair to say that no atheistic tyrant has ever been able to claim divine sanction, or to be reflecting God’s heavenly order upon earth.
 
A most interesting thread. At the risk of lowering its intellectual tone, can I ask however it would be possible, no matter how many atheist tyrants were found, for their evil deeds to even begin to match the abominable deeds carried out by theists directly for their religion, or in direct conscious implementation of them? 9/11; the recent wars in the former Yugoslavia, the atrocities of the Catholic Croatian State in World War ll, the crusades, the genocide of heretics from early times, the Hindu/Muslim atrocities accompanying Indian and Pakistan independence . . .
 
But it’s fair to say that no atheistic tyrant has ever been able to claim divine sanction, or to be reflecting God’s heavenly order upon earth.
  1. The issue is whether there is a correlation between Secularism and Tyranny.
  2. The prevalent form of secularism is materialism.
  3. Dialectical materialism has been and still is used as a justification for tyranny.
  4. Other forms of materialism have been and still are used as a justification for tyranny on the ground that religion is evil and should be eliminated.
  5. Evidence of such intolerance is the claim by Richard Dawkins that religious education is child abuse - and would therefore be abolished and forbidden by law if he and/or those who agree with him were in power.
 
  1. The issue is whether there is a correlation between Secularism and Tyranny.
  2. The prevalent form of secularism is materialism.
  3. Dialectical materialism has been and still is used as a justification for tyranny.
  4. Other forms of materialism have been and still are used as a justification for tyranny on the ground that religion is evil and should be eliminated.
  5. Evidence of such intolerance is the claim by Richard Dawkins that religious education is child abuse - and would therefore be abolished and forbidden by law if he and/or those who agree with him were in power.
Richard Dawkins claims not that religious education is child abuse, but that telling children that certain beliefs are true (such as that their non-believing parent will go to hell) are child abuse, because of the terror inflicted on children by the infliction of such beliefs, without evidence. I think I have read everything Dawkins has published on religion, and I do not recall him ever saying that he sought power, or sought power for those ‘like him’. I have also never read him saying anything other than that he sought a democratic majority on his ideas. Dawlins says a lot that Catholics can disagree with. Why not criticise him for things he actually says?
 
*1. The issue is whether there is a correlation between Secularism and Tyranny.
There is nothing doubtful about this statement:
Speaking to the American Humanist Association, Dawkins once said, “I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world’s great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate.”
salon.com/2006/10/13/dawkins_3
Such fanaticism is likely to lead to tyranny if it gets the opportunity… Do you think he would hesitate to do his best to eradicate religion if he had the opportunity?
 
There is nothing doubtful about this statement:

salon.com/2006/10/13/dawkins_3
Such fanaticism is likely to lead to tyranny if it gets the opportunity… Do you think he would hesitate to do his best to eradicate religion if he had the opportunity?
That is my point: criticise him for things he says, not things he doesn’t. No, I see nothing in Dawlin’s activities which suggests he is seeking an opportunity to gain power, or that he would use it in an undemocratic way or a way which infringed human rights were he to seek, and obtain, power.

He says things like this because this is the sort of thing others say about atheism. And he is not right, nor the others.
 
“But there will never be any possibility of National Socialism’s setting out to ape religion by establishing a form of worship. Its one ambition must be scientifically to construct a doctrine that is nothing more than a homage to reason.”

Adolf Hitler. (page 39, Hitler’s Table Talk, 1941-1944: His Private Conversations).

I think when people have set out to create a state-based community where religion is seen as a hinderance or opponent then the historical record has been tyranny followed by either complete destruction or upon recognition of the failure of own its secular goals an eventual request of help from the religious (such as in modern China, Russia, Romania, Portugal etc).
 
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