A Couple Concerns

[Abenadar]

Can anyone address the Peter problem? This:

Acts 10:25-26 ESV
(25) When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.
(26) But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.”

Also, I wrote this on a Protestant site a while back (Can someone refute it?):

Thanks.

I don’t see a “Peter problem” with the Bible quotation…After all, when Cornelius “worshipped” Peter, he told him to get up. As an aside, if you ever walk into a church, you genuflect on your right knee. If you ever meet a bishop, you genuflect on your left knee. If you enter a church with the Blessed sacrament exposed, you do a double genuflection (on both knees, AKA worship).

I don’t see a “Peter problem” in terms of being pope either. Though Christ himself is the “Rock”, he also made Peter the (earthly) “rock” on which to build the earthly church. “The Son of God is the Rock from which Peter derives his name. And it is upon Jesus, upon whom, the church would be built.” Peter is given the earthly authority by God to do on earth what God does in heaven. We clearly see elsewhere that a name change in the Bible implies a change in one’s station (what’s the point otherwise???). I think St. Gregory figured that everybody knew what he was talking about, especially 1,000 years before protestantism came into existence. Here’s how you can read it: "The Son of God is the Rock from which Peter derives his name (and his authority, and that’s why God changed his name in the first place!). Yes, Christ builds his Church upon himself, and also upon Peter. The Church is both spiritual and physical, and requires both a spiritual head (God) and a physical one (pope).

You say the Greek is sufficient, but Christ wasn’t speaking Greek. The writers of the Greek had to change the word to be applied to a man (Peter. You just wouldn’t call a man “Petra”, which is a real name, btw, and one for girls). In Aramaic and English we don’t have that problem of switching genders. Christ said “You are Rock and upon this Rock (which I am speaking about, aka, you, Peter), I will build my church”. Linguists too, have discussed this issue, and the conclusion is always that, due to context and rules of grammar, Christ was talking about Peter. I mean, why would He change Simon’s name to Rock, when he could have simply said “Thou art Simon, and upon myself I build my Church”? Wow, that sounds lame and doesn’t make any sense, does it?

We clearly see that as in the old testament, with a hierarchy of authority in Judaism, we also have a hierarchy in Christianity. At the top is the pope, who is the earthly representative and steward of God’s Church. If there were no hierarchy we’d all be like the protestants who all hold themselves to be infallible interpreters of scripture, and why there are so many protestant groups…Each one thinks his brand is the truth.

 

[Shin]

When I read in the Old Testament about the Temple of Solomon. . .

The walls were coated in gold. Real gold.

Nowadays in the Church, we have many churches, wherein the presence of God Himself dwells, just as in the Holy of Holies. . . The place where, in the past, if anyone but the High Priest entered, he was struck dead, and if the High Priest made a mistake in his service and liturgy, again, he was stuck dead, for his error in the close presence of God.

That is how reverent we have a model to be in spirit before the Lord.

It would be shameful if we did not at least -attempt- to have beautiful churches and artwork in them to show our reverence to God’s presence.

Now, if these are at the expense of the poor – I recall Judas. People are always like that, it’s an either/or situation for them. But actually these are both goods. Beautiful churches help believers recognize that God deserves all they have, to worship Him. Giving to the poor, well, what can you say that is bad about it, save when it is misused?

Both are good. Both can be done.

It is not as if individuals within the church do not at times misspend money, everyone, every single person does this. But the model, the structure, the method of the Church is one of continual charity. Establishing schools, hospitals, mission work. Its highest and most revered vows are poverty, chastity and obedience.

Priests live, give up their -lives- for others. Every day they are at the beck and call of many needy people, and into the wee hours of the night. Continually sacrificing themselves. And these are the diocesan priests who have not taken the vows of poverty. It only gets holier.

There is no place where you will both find the greatest spirit of poverty, and the greatest spirit of holiness than within the Church.

 

[TristanCross]

I don’t see a “Peter problem” with the Bible quotation…After all, when Cornelius “worshipped” Peter, he told him to get up. As an aside, if you ever walk into a church, you genuflect on your right knee. If you ever meet a bishop, you genuflect on your left knee. If you enter a church with the Blessed sacrament exposed, you do a double genuflection (on both knees, AKA worship).

You…worship bread and wine…?

 

[TristanCross]

When I read in the Old Testament about the Temple of Solomon. . .

The walls were coated in gold. Real gold.

Nowadays in the Church, we have many churches, wherein the presence of God Himself dwells, just as in the Holy of Holies. . . The place where, in the past, if anyone but the High Priest entered, he was struck dead, and if the High Priest made a mistake in his service and liturgy, again, he was stuck dead, for his error in the close presence of God.

That is how reverent we have a model to be in spirit before the Lord.

It would be shameful if we did not at least -attempt- to have beautiful churches and artwork in them to show our reverence to God’s presence.

Now, if these are at the expense of the poor – I recall Judas. People are always like that, it’s an either/or situation for them. But actually these are both goods. Beautiful churches help believers recognize that God deserves all they have, to worship Him. Giving to the poor, well, what can you say that is bad about it, save when it is misused?

Both are good. Both can be done.

It is not as if individuals within the church do not at times misspend money, everyone, every single person does this. But the model, the structure, the method of the Church is one of continual charity. Establishing schools, hospitals, mission work. Its highest and most revered vows are poverty, chastity and obedience.

Priests live, give up their -lives- for others. Every day they are at the beck and call of many needy people, and into the wee hours of the night. Continually sacrificing themselves. And these are the diocesan priests who have not taken the vows of poverty. It only gets holier.

There is no place where you will both find the greatest spirit of poverty, and the greatest spirit of holiness than within the Church.

But, the old is done. The new is here. We are no longer bound by the Law. We no longer need a hierarchy church or temple with priests who sacrifice daily, for the sacrifice of Christ is over. In fact, all believers are priests, am I not right?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You…worship bread and wine…?

Have you heard of the Real Presence?

 

[nsper7]

You…worship bread and wine…?

No, the Blessed Sacrament is the transubstantiated Body and Blood of Christ, thus we are worshiping Christ.

 

[Abenadar]

Wow, good points shin. In the scriptures we see that an unknown woman anointed Christ with a very expensive perfume and his own apostles complained…They said they could have sold it for a lot of money. But Christ lets them know that this was proper. After all, she was in the presence of God, as we are at Mass. Our church buildings, too, (and the great cathedrals of old) are a testament to this respect of the physical presence of the Almighty which, as we see in this story with the unknown woman, is entirely appropriate.

 

[TristanCross]

Have you heard of the Real Presence?

Yes…I’m not going to worship bread, though…

 

[Abenadar]

You…worship bread and wine…?

Of course not! We worship God. That is one of the fundamental beliefs of Catholicism. I’m surprised a Catholic in training hasn’t yet stumbled across this very basic teaching. In that case, keep learning. We’re more than happy to fill you in here.

 

[Abenadar]

But, the old is done. The new is here. We are no longer bound by the Law. We no longer need a hierarchy church or temple with priests who sacrifice daily, for the sacrifice of Christ is over. In fact, all believers are priests, am I not right?

The old is done in that it has been fulfilled. Yes, the new is here. We are bound by God’s law of the new testament. We still have a hierarchy, and we still sacrifice daily (the same sacrifice of calvary, not a ‘new’ one at every Mass).

Yes, all believers make up a ‘priesthood’ (of believers), but that doesn’t make us all ‘priests’, and we still require the hierarchy, which, as I must remind you, was established by Christ himself, and can be clearly and easily verified in the New Testament.

 

[Abenadar]

Yes…I’m not going to worship bread, though…

Worshipping bread (or a golden calf, or whatever else) is idolatry. We do not bend knee to bread. But if it has been consecrated, it is no longer bread, but the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ…He is physically present, and Catholics adore Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[Shin]

But, the old is done. The new is here. We are no longer bound by the Law. We no longer need a hierarchy church or temple with priests who sacrifice daily, for the sacrifice of Christ is over. In fact, all believers are priests, am I not right?

We are all priests in Christ, but there are still different levels of priesthood – The priesthood of the lay beleiver in baptism, and the priesthood of holy orders, which is foreshadowed too in the Old Testament, Israel is a holy nation, all its people are on a different level than those outside of it, the Levite priesthood is then there, and then there is the priesthood of Melchizedek.

So some have greater functions than others. No the hierarchy has absolutely not been done away with. In fact, Heaven is a hierarchy. There is a hierarchy of angels, nine choirs (which are spoken of in scripture as well as tradition), and all the saints in Heaven are in a hierarchy as well, as all believers are who enter into Heaven.

We each have a specific place and role in eternity, just as we do in this life, fulfill different functions, are different people with different capacities, etc.

This is shown in scripture some are called ‘the greatest’ in Heaven, and some ‘the least’, some gain different crowns and rewards than others, the Virgins gain special privileges (Revelation), and so forth. In Heaven, everyone shows forth God in them in a different fashion, and everyone glories in God in everyone else and learns or is taught by this more or less. It is, indeed, very beautiful and deep. God is all in all, and yet revealed differently through all His Creation.

The Old Testament is full of sacrifices… in the New we have One Sacrifice, which we return to all the time, in the Holy Mass, the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, which we renew and enter more deeply into our participation in for the sake of our souls and His worship.

 

[TristanCross]

Hebrews 10:1-39 ESV
*(1) For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.
(2) Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?
(3) But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
(4) For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
(5) Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me;
(6) in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure.
(7) Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”
(8) When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law),
(9) then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.
(10) And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(11) And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
(12) But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
(13) waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
(14) For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
(15) And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
(16) “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”
(17) then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
(18) Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
(19) Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,
(20) by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,
(21) and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
(22) let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
(23) Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.
(24) And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
(25) not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
(26) For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
(27) but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
(28) Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
(29) How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
(30) For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(32) But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings,
(33) sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated.
(34) For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.
(35) Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
(36) For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
(37) For, “Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay;
(38) but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”
(39) But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
*

 

[Shin]

Lovely scriptures! I recommend however, acquiring a good Douay Rheims Bible promptly. There’re some good ones on Tan Book’s website, and some other traditional Catholic booksellers.

While I’d like to recommend other translations, the Douay is one of the few translations published these days that is not accompanied often by misleading footnotes. I have never found them off, and you can get some volumes with great Commentary put in.

Saints’ Books has some free downloadable commentaries too.

As a Catholic, one is expected to live with Christ in oneself, and to participate, transcendentally in His sacrifice by joining oneself to the Cross. There is one sacrifice – The Crucifixion, that touches all time. And the liturgy brings us to this sacrifice, which has been handed down to us through the ages.

 

[Abenadar]

I have two D-Rs at home, but online I use this one:

drbo.org (Douay-Rheims Bible online). Sweetness!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yes…I’m not going to worship bread, though…

That is fine, we do not either. The Eucharist is Christ.

I have to agree with everyone else here.

 

[Shin]

As much as I love the ‘Traditional Catholic’ forum I think these sorts of ‘challenge’ type threads belong in Apologetics.

 

[TristanCross]

Byz, I’m sorry you feel that way. I will tell you I’m not lying, but I’m not trying to convince anyone. Christ was called a liar, being falsely accused. So it is with me. And what did Christ do? He did nothing. He let them persecute Him. So please, continue on lying and telling people that I am lying. I know who and what I am? and what my intentions are, and that they will be revealed to all on the last day. I’m not scared of you, sir. You’re just dust on my feet.

This is my final post. My deacon is better than you.

 

[tcm22]

Byz, I’m sorry you feel that way. I will tell you I’m not lying, but I’m not trying to convince anyone. Christ was called a liar, being falsely accused. So it is with me. And what did Christ do? He did nothing. He let them persecute Him. So please, continue on lying and telling people that I am lying. I know who and what I am? and what my intentions are, and that they will be revealed to all on the last day. I’m not scared of you, sir. You’re just dust on my feet.

This is my final post. My deacon is better than you.

Tristan, you seem to want a debate vs understanding of questions you have about the Catholic Faith.

You claim to be a Catholic in training, yet your comment about not worhipping bread suggests a rejection of basic Catholic teaching. The Eucharist is the center of our Faith.

I’m curious what sort of training you are in and what draws you to the Catholic faith. By your questions, you seem to have many misconceptions about what we believe. I’d like to give you the chance to put your perspective in a positive light.

 

[yesukristus]

Seriously? Why do you guys have to be so mean? Instead of judging me and bashing me, why don’t you address the problems I have so I can enter the Church without a doubt.

If you’re expecting us to clear all your doubts so that you can know 100% for sure that Catholicism is the true religion, then I’m sorry to tell you that this won’t be happening. Why?

1. None of us is THAT clever. Or wise. Or knowledgeable. And God doesn’t want us to be anyway. Remember Jesus’ prayer, the one that goes "I confess to thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to little ones. [Matthew 11:25])? Some things ultimately we have to accept based on faith alone (intelligence, logic and rationality can help, but can only go so far), and that faith comes ONLY from God.
2. Most of us have doubts on certain things anyway. But we still press on regardless of those doubts, trusting that God will answer them in His own time. And we trust that the Catholic faith is the true faith, trusting in Her teachings (not blindly, but with an informed conscience) and trying our best to live them. And isn’t this what is important at the end of the day? Jesus won’t quiz us on our theological rumblings on the Last Day. He would instead ask us who do we say He is and how much we have helped our neighbors. And all the Church’s teaching and rules are meant to help us give a good account of our lives here on Earth.

So, instead of asking "Prove to me that your Church is the right one) [which we can’t, not 100%, btw], why don’t you ask God to help you choose the right Church to belong to, the right faith to practice, and the right people to listen to and ask advice from.