A couple of saints I’m not so sure about

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Hey guys, not sure I put this in the right forum. Would like to start by saying that it’s not my business whom anyone venerates and I totally don’t mind if they do, but I just read that the Ethiopian Orthodox Church venerates Pontius Pilate as a saint. Presumably Ethiopian Catholics do too. My question is why did they have him canonized, and why did the Holy See not raise any objection to continued Ethiopian Catholic veneration of Pilate? Is there some sort of proof that Pontius Pilate repented and became Christian?

Also, it seems the Syro-Malabar Church venerates Nestorius as a saint. Yes, the Nestorius of Nestorianism. I asked my priest and he replied with the standard “Nestorius was a heretic, get off your phone and stop reading stuff on the Internet”, but maybe you guys know something? Are there any Syro-Malabars here who can clarify?

Thanks.
 
Salibi said:
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From posters on the byzcath forum:
“Rome approved the use of all three Anaphorae for the Syro-Malabar Church in 1962”
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and also
“Chaldean Catholic Church uses the Anaphora of Mar Addai and Mar Mari (with the addition of the words of institution).”
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The three referred to are used but per poster “As I understand it, yes the Chaldean Church uses those Anaphorae, but don’t refer to the authors!”:
  • the Anaphora of Mar Addai and Mar Mari (used from Resurrection (Pascha) until the end of the church year),
  • the Anaphora of Mar Theodore the Interpreter (used between Annunciation (Advent) and the Sunday of Hosannas (the Sunday before Resurrection), and
  • the Anaphora of Mar Nestorius
 
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Here’s my understanding:
  1. It’s not totally clear whether Nestorius himself even wrote the Anaphora of Nestorius that was restored in recent years to the Syro-Malabar church after having been suppressed by the Portuguese/ Jesuits in the 1500s.
  2. It’s also not totally clear whether Nestorius himself believed in what we think of as Nestorianism. There are whole scholarly papers on this claiming that many scholars say Nestorius wasn’t himself Nestorian and trying to get to the bottom of what he actually believed and propagated.
    https://opus.bibliothek.uni-wuerzbu...ndex/docId/6595/file/Joseph_Nedumparambil.pdf
  3. To the extent that the Syro-Malabar church might still revere Nestorius, they certainly don’t seem to agree with his ideas on Mary the Mother of God, based on the ginormous Our Lady of Good Health Vailankanni service of theirs that I attended last year - Standing room only in a very large shrine with Mary statue procession going on for an hour and the whole nine yards.
  4. Saints can and do make mistakes. Although I personally would not want to pray to Nestorius, he could well be in heaven and he wouldn’t be the first saint who screwed something up to be in Heaven. (After all, we have St. Thomas Aquinas who said a human doesn’t get a soul until 40 days after conception)
  5. While it seems the churches in India are more friendly to Nestorius generally, it also seems the Syro-Malabar church does not make a big deal out of celebrating him and that he’s normally associated with the Assyrian Church of the East, which was the one most accused of being Nestorian. It’s my understanding that they have been in and out of the Catholic church over the centuries and are currently out but have rejected some of their previous Nestorian theology.
Maybe someone from Syro-Malabar church can add more, as this all seems very confused.
 
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I can’t speak into the issue of Nestorius and Nestorianism, other than the repeat what one poster said above. Recent scholarship questions whether Nestorius himself actually believed what became known as Nestorianism, or if Nestorianism grew out of interpreters of Nestorius’ own writings. I know that Chaldean Catholic Bishop Mar Bawai Soro has written on this topic.

In terms of Pontius Pilate being venerated as a saint by the Ethiopian Orthodox (and possibly Catholics), I think the tradition is beautiful and just goes to show that so long as we draw breath in this life there is hope for receiving God’s mercy. The tradition is that after Jesus’ crucifixion Pilate was converted to Christianity by his wife, who had warned him to have nothing to do with Jesus’ execution. I believe the tradition goes further to say that Pilate died as a martyr, but I’m not sure that I remember that correctly.
 
Incidentally, I just read an article that claims St. Augustine hailed Pilate as a convert. Haven’t been able to find where in his writings this takes place.
 
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Pontius Pilate a saint? Eastern Catholicism
I think I read somewhere that in the eastern church there is a tradition that Pontius Pilate and his wife became saints, or at least became Christians. Since he was in the gospel reading in today’s mass, my RCIA discussion group was wondering if this is true. I hope it is. We know that even people who make terrible decisions can repent and God’s mercy is without limits.
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Saints Pontius Pilate & Claudia Procula Eastern Catholicism
In Eastern Christianity, and by extension in the Catholic Church, Pontius Pilate’s wife Claudia Procula is venerated as a Saint. But a lesser known fact is that within Oriental Orthodoxy in the Ethiopic tradition, Pilate himself has been venerated as a Saint since at least the 6th century. Since there is an Ethiopian Catholic Church, this means that the Catholic Church, at least in one of her 24 Churches, recognizes Pontius Pilate as a Saint. Does anybody here venerate him? I personally feel…
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Is Pilate's wife a saint? Ask an Apologist
Hello I am a confirmation candidate in my second year of confirmation classes. Now in order to complete my journey to become a confirmed catholic I understand I need a confirmation saint name. Ideally I would like to be given the name Claudia in reference to Pontius Pilate’s wife. But I am not quite sure if Claudia is recognized in the Catholic Church as a saint. If I could get a response to this matter it would be appreciated. Thank you and God Bless you all.
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I think the main source for Pilate supposedly being a convert is the Acts of Pilate, which the Catholic Church decided was non-canonical based on questions about its authenticity. The Church isn’t going to include somebody in the list of saints when historical evidence is sketchy, and has thrown out saints having a better basis (like Philomena) for lack of historical evidence.

Having said that, I don’t personally get too upset about Pilate being venerated. It’s obvious based on the canonical scripture that Pilate was conflicted about Jesus, at minimum, and did not want to kill him but gave in to the mob. That could have been a first step to some level of genuine faith. It will be interesting to find out in Heaven, if God permits, whether Pilate is there.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
the Assyrian Church of the East, which was the one most accused of being Nestorian. It’s my understanding that they have been in and out of the Catholic church over the centuries and are currently out
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The Church of the East is currently split into three groups, with one in communion with Rome (the Chaldean Catholic Church), and two not in union with Rome (the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East). According to the number of adherents on Wikipedia (so take it with a grain of salt), the majority are in communion with Rome (62%, compared to 31% and 7% respectively).
 
Agreed 100%. Apparently there was an attempt at reunification in 2015 when one of the three patriarchates was vacant, but it fell through.
 
This is a fascinating thread. I’ll have to read more about Pilate.

I always felt bad for Pontius Pilate, and I even empathized with him on many levels. He was in a tough situation. It is a beautiful idea that his story was far from over.

I had literally never heard of anything like this, regarding Pilate, before reading this thread.
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
Recent scholarship questions whether Nestorius himself actually believed what became known as Nestorianism…
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To be fair, this is not just recent scholarship. It goes back to the controversy itself. People like Theodoret, who professed the orthodox faith, and would agree to condemn the notion of the two persons of Christ, steadfastly defended Nestorius. This is partially what underlaid the Three Chapters controversy. Even after the Second Council of Constantinople, St. Gregory the Great permitted dissent on the topic (as long as the orthodox faith was maintained) because reasonable, otherwise faithful people disagreed.
 
Just wanted to add that I can’t get too upset about Pontius Pilate being a saint, since some of the saints of the Roman Church committed some pretty horrific things (Thomas More was responsible for the deaths of several heretics).
 
Well, the Catholic church hasn’t thrown St. Philomena out, but she just removed her official liturgical feast day. She’s still a saint.
 
The Orthodox Church of Abbysinia used to celebrate Pilate as a saint, but not anymore I think. Eusebius wrote that Pilate committed suicide on orders from the Emperor Caligula in about 39 AD.
 
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