A couple of thoughts on Vatican II

[cathdoki]

Is there somewhere you can compare the sacraments. I would be especially interested in the sacrament of reconciliation. How it maybe has changed, if it has.

Do you realize that the Sacrament of Reconcilliation has changed much through the millenia. In the very early Church, even after absolution, you were required to stand outside the church building during Mass and not allowed in? That was a part of penance. Totally against the Sacrament itself. The sacrament is to restore our friendship with God. If that is true, then why be prevented from attending Mass and receiving the Eucharist. The CC has made mistakes in the past. Many ultra conservative fundamentalist Catholics have much too much of an holier than thou theology. As one poster put it " too much theology and not enough looking at the Crucifix".

 

[cathdoki]

That is simply not true. There were non Catholic observers at V2, but none of them had (name removed by moderator)ut to the V2 official documents and it was not V2 that changed the Mass, it was the Pope. If you have proof otherwise, start another thread and post it, however you may want to use the search function as this has been hashed and rehashed numerous times on the forums.

Thank you! Too many fundamentalist Catholics are given free reign on this website. Point out their mistakes and you just might find yourself suspended or banned.

Somehow they seem to relish in the idea that the rest of us will not go to heaven. Just the Special People.

 

[Ockham]

Many ultra conservative fundamentalist Catholics have much too much of an holier than thou theology. As one poster put it " too much theology and not enough looking at the Crucifix".

Examples?

 

[Ockham]

Thank you! Too many fundamentalist Catholics are given free reign on this website. Point out their mistakes and you just might find yourself suspended or banned.

Somehow they seem to relish in the idea that the rest of us will not go to heaven. Just the Special People.

Examples?

 

[joedecarlo]

Sorry my friend, I will let most of the uneducated comments go, but this one is a direct attack on a Priest. You have to prove this one or apologize. Please take it to a new thread so as not to derail this one.

I apologize. I had read that Bugnini was fired? by Pope Paul VI for being a member of the Masons. I just now read that he was accused of being a mason but it was never proven.

I’m stating to notice that the strict Traditionalists newspapers that I read can alter the facts to their liking. Again, I’m sorry!!!

 

[Layman]

I think we’ve all heard the argument “Jesus didn’t speak Latin!” This is the mindset people have towards Latin nowadays.

Jesus lived in Roman-occupied Israel. I think he spoke Latin, alright. Hard to imagine him not speaking it, in fact.

Interesting that his Vicar on Earth, the successor to Peter, now sits on a throne in the capital city of His executioners, while their empire is consigned to the history books.

But please, why not do your best to destroy The Roman Catholic Church’s links to its past, one by one, until we’re left with having a prayer meeting in someplace that looks like a school hall and wondering where the magic’s gone, while our children turn to paganism?*
*
[sarcasm].

 

[Layman]

In the very early Church, even after absolution, you were required to stand outside the church building during Mass and not allowed in? That was a part of penance.

Ah, those were the good days.

People took their religion very seriously, then, if that’s true.

 

[TheDoctor]

I apologize. I had read that Bugnini was fired? by Pope Paul VI for being a member of the Masons. I just now read that he was accused of being a mason but it was never proven.

I’m stating to notice that the strict Traditionalists newspapers that I read can alter the facts to their liking. Again, I’m sorry!!!

Hello Joe. Apology accepted.

When I first started lurking on the forums, I was surprised by the “facts” that I saw thrown around about the Chruch. After a while I learned to be very very selective in what I trusted depending on the source and some checking of my own.

The good part is the more you stay here, the more you will be able to see through the chaff and decide for yourself what is really true…and for every “altered fact” there are a dozen real nuggets of truth.

 

[TheDoctor]

In the Church’s history someone who does something as notable as a new liturgy gets sainthood, a cathedral naming, or something. What did Bugnini get for crafting the Novus Ordo?

Perhaps the same thing Paul VI got for promogulating it?

No matter who crafted it, the point I cannot let go is that is was the Pope who gave permission for the new missal to be used. In my small mind if anyone is going to accuse Bugnini or the V2 protestant observers (or aliens or Obama or whomever) with the “horrible” OF, they are in the final analysis laying their conspiracy at the foot of the Pope, and that I just cannot believe. Sorry, I am too much a traditionalist to go against the Vicar of Christ.

 

[TheDoctor]

Thank you! Too many fundamentalist Catholics are given free reign on this website. Point out their mistakes and you just might find yourself suspended or banned.

Somehow they seem to relish in the idea that the rest of us will not go to heaven. Just the Special People.

I won’t say “free reign” becasue we should all be free to share our opinions within the confines of forum rules. I think the mods do a great job and most people who are banned probably know they have it coming but refuse to change (hey, sounds just like some Catholics I know .)

I know what you mean about the Heaven part, which kind of makes me glad it’s Jesus who will do the judging and not the forum.

 

[Layman]

Once again, ‘ad-hominen’ arguing. “N.O. not so hot” sez trad. = Pharasical trad. judging N.O. goers.

Personally, I reckon 40+ years is enough time to be experimented on. To the TLM!

 

[Melchior_1]

Mozart made positive contributions to the Church.

You can belong to an anti-Catholic organization so long as you make positive contributions to the Church?

You sure that makes sense?

 

[choy]

Jesus lived in Roman-occupied Israel. I think he spoke Latin, alright. Hard to imagine him not speaking it, in fact.

why not? Jerusalem was a fringe province where most people speak Aramaic. Jesus may know some Latin but wouldn’t be the norm when speaking to the people of the area.

Interesting that his Vicar on Earth, the successor to Peter, now sits on a throne in the capital city of His executioners, while their empire is consigned to the history books.

But please, why not do your best to destroy The Roman Catholic Church’s links to its past, one by one, until we’re left with having a prayer meeting in someplace that looks like a school hall and wondering where the magic’s gone, while our children turn to paganism?*
*
[sarcasm].

my former pastor has the opinion that had the Jews unanimously accepted Jesus, Rome would have been converted in the 1st century instead of later

 

[ProVobis]

Yet people have condoned Mozart being an actual member of the Masons and support his music at Mass.

Go figure.

Freemasonry wasn’t an excommunicable offense when Mozart lived. That said, Bugnini didn’t have to be a Catholic to have his Mass promulgated by the Pope. Nor does one need to be Catholic to have his music approved for Catholic worship.

 

[ProVobis]

Jesus lived in Roman-occupied Israel. I think he spoke Latin, alright. Hard to imagine him not speaking it, in fact.

Indeed. Scripture records a conversation he had with Pontius Pilate amongst others. Also the inscription at the top of the cross was in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. Why on earth would it be in Latin if Christ didn’t know Latin or didn’t have followers or accusers who spoke Latin?

 

[Layman]

why not? Jerusalem was a fringe province where most people speak Aramaic. Jesus may know some Latin but wouldn’t be the norm when speaking to the people of the area.

Errr… the Son Of God couldn’t speak the language of the occupiers of His adopted country?

 

[Layman]

An interesting idea.

What would have happened if the Jews had unanimously accepted Jesus? Probably not the Crucifixion, (which act has reverberated throughout the Cosmos and into eternity) and therefore, Christianity as we know it.

Those who were disposed the hear Him, heard Him, I suppose.

 

[ProVobis]

…but the inscription at the top of the cross was an official pronoucement and may have been recorded in Latin simply for that reason.

I thought that inscription was supposed to be a mockery.

I don’t know why there is so much doubt as to whether Christ knew Latin or not. This was the Roman Empire, after all. How did Christ, a carpenter by trade, avoid all contact with those who spoke Latin for 33 years?

 

[maurin]

It seems that some are forgetting that Jesus, while fully human, was, while on the earth that was created through Him, was also Fully God. Is it really difficult for a Catholic to believe that he spoke and understood not only Latin, but all human language, not only those spoken contemporaneously with Him, but all human language before and after His time on earth?

 

[MarkThompson]

It seems that some are forgetting that Jesus, while fully human, was, while on the earth that was created through Him, was also Fully God. Is it really difficult for a Catholic to believe that he spoke and understood not only Latin, but all human language, not only those spoken contemporaneously with Him, but all human language before and after His time on earth?

So he spoke Ebonics?