A date for the "Great Apostasy"

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I haven’t followed this long long thread closely, but since it’s still running I’ll add some fire…

Tad Callister (LDS General Authority) makes the point that the doctrine that man can become like God is an ancient doctrine that has been lost. The link is here: speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=2060&view=1

Here are some ECF quotes in bold, followed by references.

Irenaeus - We have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods.

Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses (Irenaeus Against Heresies), book 4, chapter 38, in The Apostolic Fathers, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, vol. 1 of Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, 1994), 522.

Irenaeus - Passing beyond the angels, and be made after the image and likeness of God.

Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses (Irenaeus Against Heresies), book 5, chapter 36, in vol. 1, The Apostolic Fathers, 567.

Clement of Alexandria - Being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Saviour.

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata (Miscellanies), book 7, chapter 10, in Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire), vol. 2 of Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, 1994), 539.

Clement of Alexandria - Knowing God, he will be made like God. . . . And that man becomes God, since God so wills.

Clement of Alexandria, Paedagogus (The Instructor), book 3, chapter 1, in vol. 2, Fathers of the Second Century, 271;

Hippolytus - And thou shalt be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ. . . . For thou hast become God: . . . thou hast been deified, and begotten unto immortality.

Hippolytus, Philosophumena (The Refutation of All Heresies), book 10, chapter 30, in Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix, vol. 5 of Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, 1994), 153

Cyprian - What Christ is, we Christians shall be, if we imitate Christ.

Cyprian, “On the Vanity of Idols,” The Treatises of Cyprian, 6:15, in vol. 5, Fathers of the Third Century, 469.

Origen - The true God [referring to the Father], then, is ‘The God,’ and those who are formed after Him are gods, images, as it were, of Him the prototype.

Origen, Commentary on John, 2:2, in The Gospel of Peter, the Diatessaron of Tatian, vol. 9 of Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, 1994), 323.

St. Athanasius of Alexandria - [God] was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods.

Athanasius, Orationes Contra Arianus (Four Discourses Against the Arians), 1.39, 3.34, in St. Athanasius: Select Works and Letters, vol. 4 of A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church: Second Series, ed. Philip Schaff and Henry Wace (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1978–79), 329, 413

Pummel away!! 🙂
 
gazelam said:
I haven’t followed this long long thread closely, but since it’s still running I’ll add some fire…

Tad Callister (LDS General Authority) makes the point that the doctrine that man can become like God is an ancient doctrine that has been lost. The link is here: speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=2060&view=1

Here are some ECF quotes in bold, followed by references.
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I think I’ll just pre-empt their responses and say that the belief that men can become like God
was never lost, since Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy still hold to that belief
(the Catechism of the Catholic Church references many of those same ECFs in saying
that we can become like God, God, gods. So, this wouldn’t be evidence of apostasy
since they still hold that belief (referred to as theosis or deification). Orthodox and Eastern Catholics do tend to emphasize it more than Western Christians.
 
LivingWaters7 said:
I think I’ll just pre-empt their responses and say that the belief that men can become like God
was never lost, since Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy still hold to that belief
(the Catechism of the Catholic Church references many of those same ECFs in saying
that we can become like God, God, gods. So, this wouldn’t be evidence of apostasy
since they still hold that belief (referred to as theosis or deification). Orthodox and Eastern Catholics do tend to emphasize it more than Western Christians.
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The difference is, we can become LIKE God. In other words, we will live forever. We will be with God.

That is different from the heretical teaching that God was once a man
 
TexanKnight said:
The difference is, we can become LIKE God. In other words, we will live forever. We will be with God.
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I didn’t feel very pummelled with that response… 🙂

Am I correct in assuming that your phrase “LIKE God” refers to developing a personality of divine attributes (such as, the list found in 1 Peter 1:5-7), but not necessarily arriving to a point were one could create a world in six days, or not necessarily being able to beget a son who can atone for the sins of your other offspring?

A creation, such as, a painting never progresses to a point where it become a painter, but offspring always progress over time to become the same essence as the parent.

Some references to us being offspring of God are found in Acts 17:28, 29; Romans 8:16, 17; Hebrews 12:9.
 
We are creatures and always will be. LW7, the CCC460 speaks of this.

You are not reading all the texts leading up to CCC460 and the particular footnotes with that teaching. The footnotes refer to St. Ireneaus and St. Thomas Aquinas, referring to Eucharist. Uou are reading it from the Mormonism ideas…‘neutralizing Judeo-Christianity’. The Eucharist is the counter point to the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve ate. Mormonism does not share belief in God that Judaism and Christianity believe in.

Mormonism attempts to ‘neutralize’ Judaism and Christianity.

We will always be creatures. Judaism and Christianity is about One God, One Creator who St. Justin the Martyr also refers to as well ancient early church fathers.

When you are baptized, Trinitarian – right form and words, you are then adopted sons and daughters of God. When you are in the state of grace and receive the Eucharist, you are already in divinization. We partake of the Divine Life in the sacraments.

The Kingdom of God is among us now.

One God, One Creator. We are creatures but through Christ, we partake in the life of grace restore to God. But always separate as creatures. Why would you want to become a god and how would you really do it? By doing good deeds?
 
St. Athanasius is the bishop who clarified Christology and His relation to the Father that was added to the Creed.

The Nicene Creed is the fruit of the teachings of St. Athanasius who was exiled from his bishopry 4 times.

He would roll in his grave if he saw how Mormons totally contradicted his teachings…same with other Church fathers. Consider the fact that Christ’s death, resurrection, and glorious ascension into heaven were creating a new life and freedom from the bondage of sin among mankind. The early Church fathers lived only so many years after Christ.

All believed in One God, One Creator.

Stop the Mormon fraudulent interpretation…meaning, making professions of faith and devotion of Christ – into opposite of what they mean. When you say we become gods…is blasphemous. Strong words, I know, but it is truth.

It personally violates my Catholic faith when Mormons willfully ignore context surrounding such statements.

St. Michael the Archangel declared, 'Who is like unto God?!"
 
The Mormons and their associated groups have absolutely no evidence for any such “Great Apostasy” much less an actual valid date for when it occurred. I guarantee that if you go back and look at the Church Fathers and other historical things about the Church you will find that there was never any such “Great Apostasy”. Yes there were some heresies that afflicted the Church at various times in the past but never has the entire Church fell into heresy and never has the entire Church completely apostatized.
 
Holly3278 said:
The Mormons and their associated groups have absolutely no evidence for any such “Great Apostasy” much less an actual valid date for when it occurred. I guarantee that if you go back and look at the Church Fathers and other historical things about the Church you will find that there was never any such “Great Apostasy”. Yes there were some heresies that afflicted the Church at various times in the past but never has the entire Church fell into heresy and never has the entire Church completely apostatized.
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And neither did the early Church have or practice a Mormon theology.

They also enjoyed their wine…a staple of their diet.

👍
 
gazelam said:
I haven’t followed this long long thread closely, but since it’s still running I’ll add some fire…

Tad Callister (LDS General Authority) makes the point that the doctrine that man can become like God is an ancient doctrine that has been lost. The link is here: speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=2060&view=1

Here are some ECF quotes in bold, followed by references.

Irenaeus - We have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods.

Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses (Irenaeus Against Heresies), book 4, chapter 38, in The Apostolic Fathers, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, vol. 1 of Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, 1994), 522.

Irenaeus - Passing beyond the angels, and be made after the image and likeness of God.

Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses (Irenaeus Against Heresies), book 5, chapter 36, in vol. 1, The Apostolic Fathers, 567.

Clement of Alexandria - Being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Saviour.

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata (Miscellanies), book 7, chapter 10, in Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire), vol. 2 of Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, 1994), 539.

Clement of Alexandria - Knowing God, he will be made like God. . . . And that man becomes God, since God so wills.

Clement of Alexandria, Paedagogus (The Instructor), book 3, chapter 1, in vol. 2, Fathers of the Second Century, 271;

Hippolytus - And thou shalt be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ. . . . For thou hast become God: . . . thou hast been deified, and begotten unto immortality.

Hippolytus, Philosophumena (The Refutation of All Heresies), book 10, chapter 30, in Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix, vol. 5 of Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, 1994), 153

Cyprian - What Christ is, we Christians shall be, if we imitate Christ.

Cyprian, “On the Vanity of Idols,” The Treatises of Cyprian, 6:15, in vol. 5, Fathers of the Third Century, 469.

Origen - The true God [referring to the Father], then, is ‘The God,’ and those who are formed after Him are gods, images, as it were, of Him the prototype.

Origen, Commentary on John, 2:2, in The Gospel of Peter, the Diatessaron of Tatian, vol. 9 of Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, 1994), 323.

St. Athanasius of Alexandria - [God] was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods.

Athanasius, Orationes Contra Arianus (Four Discourses Against the Arians), 1.39, 3.34, in St. Athanasius: Select Works and Letters, vol. 4 of A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church: Second Series, ed. Philip Schaff and Henry Wace (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1978–79), 329, 413

Pummel away!! 🙂
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Oh great another Mormon with the lie that exaltation and theosis are the same thing. Read Vajda’s thesis, it can be found at the BYU Neil A Maxwell site.
 
gazelam said:
I haven’t followed this long long thread closely, but since it’s still running I’ll add some fire…

Tad Callister (LDS General Authority) makes the point that the doctrine that man can become like God is an ancient doctrine that has been lost.
Click to expand...
From earlier in the thread
Stephen168 said:
No, my first quote was about the final state of man as taught by St. Irenaeus. It also included a Christian progression of man to the final state. My question was "did Smith and Snow teach what Irenaeus taught?"

God is uncreated. He created man (Adam and Eve) as sinless beings who had eternal life and able see God; they were gods. They sinned against God and brought death and sin upon mankind. God humbled himself and became man. Christ took away the sins of the world and over came death. This gives mankind the opportunity to become gods just like Adam and Eve were gods; with eternal life we can see our creator, God.

The limit to deification (becoming gods) is God. God is uncreated and everything else is created. Part of the divine nature is eternal life. We will share/participate in God’s nature but we will never be God.

I believe this is a brief general explanation of divination as taught by the early church fathers.

What did the early Mormon Church mean by “becoming gods?” What does the current Mormon Church mean by becoming gods?
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gazelam said:
I didn’t feel very pummelled with that response… 🙂

Am I correct in assuming that your phrase “LIKE God” refers to developing a personality of divine attributes (such as, the list found in 1 Peter 1:5-7), but not necessarily arriving to a point were one could create a world in six days, or not necessarily being able to beget a son who can atone for the sins of your other offspring?

A creation, such as, a painting never progresses to a point where it become a painter, but offspring always progress over time to become the same essence as the parent.

Some references to us being offspring of God are found in Acts 17:28, 29; Romans 8:16, 17; Hebrews 12:9.
Click to expand...
Not that TexanKnight needs any help, but this really caught my eye. Gazelam, to forgive one’s enemies is “god-like”. To love is “god-like”. To be immortal is “god-like”. We were made in the image and likeness of God, but we will never be God.

The erroneous belief that you are literal sons and daughters of God is certainly at play in this notion, along with the belief that there is no difference in the substance of God and the substance of man. Yet Scripture tells that that we are not literal sons and daughters of God, rather we are sons and daughters by adoption (John 1:12, Romans 8:14-16, Galatians 4:4-6).

You say: “offspring always progress over time to become the same essence as the parent.” Again, you are confused. Human children have human parents so it is no mystery that human children may attain what their human parents have attained, and many times, even more. Not so when it comes to God. Only God is God. We will forever be his creatures, but creatures who he has invited to share in his very life and thus creatures who will share in his divinity. But we will still only be creatures, adopted as his sons and daughters, who share in the divinity of the one and only God; we will never be God. We will spend eternity worshiping him in complete awe and wonder.
 
SteveVH said:
Not that TexanKnight needs any help, but this really caught my eye. Gazelam, to forgive one’s enemies is “god-like”. To love is “god-like”. To be immortal is “god-like”. We were made in the image and likeness of God, but we will never be God.

The erroneous belief that you are literal sons and daughters of God is certainly at play in this notion, along with the belief that there is no difference in the substance of God and the substance of man. Yet Scripture tells that that we are not literal sons and daughters of God, rather we are sons and daughters by adoption (John 1:12, Romans 8:14-16, Galatians 4:4-6).

You say: “offspring always progress over time to become the same essence as the parent.” Again, you are confused. Human children have human parents so it is no mystery that human children may attain what their human parents have attained, and many times, even more. Not so when it comes to God. Only God is God. We will forever be his creatures, but creatures who he has invited to share in his very life and thus creatures who will share in his divinity. But we will still only be creatures, adopted as his sons and daughters, who share in the divinity of the one and only God; we will never be God. We will spend eternity worshiping him in complete awe and wonder.
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tis all stems from the belief and teaching that Adam was our God and Eve our Mother-God. (Heavenly Mother).
 
TexanKnight said:
tis all stems from the belief and teaching that Adam was our God and Eve our Mother-God. (Heavenly Mother).
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Yes. I’ve never heard the answer to the obvious question this poses. If God was Michael who came to earth and became Adam, then who did Adam sin against (forgetting for the moment that this obviously does mean that God was was a sinful man)?

Did he sin agains heavenly Grandfather?
 
SteveVH said:
Yes. I’ve never heard the answer to the obvious question this poses. If God was Michael who came to earth and became Adam, then who did Adam sin against (forgetting for the moment that this obviously does mean that God was was a sinful man)?

Did he sin agains heavenly Grandfather?
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A Mormon later than Joe and Brigham must have realized that fault when they started the dishonest practice of first saying the doctrine was never taught and later saying it was simply opinion.
 
TexanKnight said:
A Moron later than Joe and Brigham must have realized that fault when they started the dishonest practice of first saying the doctrine was never taught and later saying it was simply opinion.
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Either that or they do not consider what Adam did to be a sin. I’ve heard that one as well.
 
ah geez…please forgive me! I NEVER intended to say “Moron” I intended to type Mormon. It will not let me edit. I am truly truly sorry. I would have NEVER posted that word. I hope no Mormons were offended. It was not my intent.
 
TexanKnight said:
ah geez…please forgive me! I NEVER intended to say “Moron” I intended to type Mormon. It will not let me edit. I am truly truly sorry. I would have NEVER posted that word. I hope no Mormons were offended. It was not my intent.
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lol. I didn’t even see that until you mentioned it.
 
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