A date for the "Great Apostasy"

  • Thread starter Thread starter batman1973
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
TexasKnight -

From JR’s previous post…and gutenberg.org link… being a former Mormon, is the history below “doctrine”? Does the (suggested) history below add credibility to the Mormon doctrine of a “great apostasy”? If this doctrine below is proven false…what does that say about belief in other doctrine including a “great apostasy”?
It was certainly taught to ME as doctrine. The problem, of course, is that they have since backed off of specific locations that are mentioned in this passage due to the fact that their archaeological studies cannot support it.

IF you read early LDS Doctrine, there absolutely could never have been an apostasy. Not only was God with the nephites, etc, but He was also with John and the three nephites who continue to walk the earth to this day.

The problem with your question is, the Doctrine cannot be proven false because it is a negative doctrine. What I mean is, since the Book of Mormon is a book of fiction and nothing in it happened, it cannot be proven false. Fiction is fiction. Trying to find Zerehamla is like trying to find Narnia. And there is as much scientific support by non LDS scholars for the Book of Mormon as there is The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

Earlier, I asked the LDS trio to give me exact locations for Zerehemla and Bountiful. They disappeared.

True, original LDS Doctrine disproves the theory of an Apostasy.
 
After all, an apostasy is hardly something that would occur in one day, it would probably be something that gradually develops and overtakes the Church over time. You wouldn’t be able to pin it down to one day or year…
Like now?
 
@JRTRENT I’m sure most here belong to the church they do because they believe it to teach what is true, so it can be hard not to say I’m right so the rest of you must be wrong, or that the only way to embrace truth is to join my church. When kimg901 wrote, “Im just going to throw my hands up in the air because even though you mormons wont admit it, All of you who believe in this “apostacy” are calling Jesus a LIAR,” I’m sure that’s an honest sentiment, but it doesn’t seem in spirit with the idea of better understanding each other’s religions.

Listen guy or gal, I was once a mormon so I understand your screwed up way of thinking. As for my return to the True Church, well lets just say that when I no longer believed in God I had a vision. (Thats right, a vision! Quite a few in fact) Jesus came to me and told me while standing in His Church, to protect His Church. But He didnt say church, He actually said rock. Thats the reason I know there is no apostacy and that your church is false in everyway, shape and form. I was a Catholic from birth, left it and was a mormon then after realizing that the lds are false I became an athiest and now I am back home 👍 You can think im being rude or whatever, but i can care less if you or any other mormons feelings are hurt.
 
It was certainly taught to ME as doctrine. The problem, of course, is that they have since backed off of specific locations that are mentioned in this passage due to the fact that their archaeological studies cannot support it.

IF you read early LDS Doctrine, there absolutely could never have been an apostasy. Not only was God with the nephites, etc, but He was also with John and the three nephites who continue to walk the earth to this day.

The problem with your question is, the Doctrine cannot be proven false because it is a negative doctrine. What I mean is, since the Book of Mormon is a book of fiction and nothing in it happened, it cannot be proven false. Fiction is fiction. Trying to find Zerehamla is like trying to find Narnia. And there is as much scientific support by non LDS scholars for the Book of Mormon as there is The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

Earlier, I asked the LDS trio to give me exact locations for Zerehemla and Bountiful. They disappeared.

True, original LDS Doctrine disproves the theory of an Apostasy.
Tex - science has shown that the American Indians came from Asia…would you consider this proof that the text is false? If this text is false…then one can not count on a “great apostasy” to be true…(although that can be argued & shown separately to not be true).
 
Thanks, Tom for responding to me.

We all have to go on the journey that is sensible to us. And yes, I can see from your comments that you have a deep desire for God. I wish you did not have the simultaneous conflict of spiritual vs intellectual.

For myself, the Catholic Church satisfies both. But the important thing is to hold on to the love of God I have for Him, the presence of God I acknowledge in the Church, and to be faithful to Him through those around me.

We have to remember that God is the Author of Life, and source of our salvation, that the Church is as Mother who is guiding us and nurturing us to be closer to Him…a matter of finding our focus and keeping it there.
Blessings.
You’re welcome.
I hope I didn’t say that my intellectual and spiritual witness were in conflict. I didn’t intend to say that.
During my pitiful excuse for a “dark night of the soul” which lasted for about 30 hours, I was less certain than I was before.
What pushed you from Catholicism to Mormonism?
The real answer to this question is that I didn’t consider Catholicism to be anything other than just another church in America. The missionaries explained to me (and it took them a year and multiple sets) that the CoJCoLDS claimed to be a restoration initiated by Christ. If this was true then it was not acceptable to just by kinda Catholic and kinda nice and kinda …
I can also say point to some things I am less proud of.
I first attended a Protestant church service instead of the local Catholic Church when the priest spent his whole homily on donating to the collections plate and not just putting in a dollar. I surely missed his point, but I didn’t attend their the next week (though I would spend most Sundays for another 2 years in some Catholic Church).
When I was out driving my sports car to fast through the streets of Idaho, I met a couple of fellow delinquents driving too fast. I was impressed by how these delinquents were not like the normal folks I met while out at midnight wandering the streets. I was later impressed when one of them out of deference to his mother did not go out dancing (not because there would be drinking, because TOm didn’t drink, but because the girls you meet there would not be …). Still, it was impressive to me and different. I began looking into the CoJCoLDS more seriously.
Finally, I am not sure I would have made it through the 2-3 year process that began above if after “beginning looking into the CoJCoLDS more seriously” I had not met my wife who was and is a LDS.

It is an easier world when one can say, “Silly TOm became a LDS because of a sermon he likely misunderstood, returned missionaries who were different than other denizens of the night, and of course because of a girl.” I hope such is not true (untrue like all the reasons LDS, myself not always excluded, try to paste upon folks who leave our communion), but all of the above facts are true.
Charity, TOm
 
The real answer to this question is that I didn’t consider Catholicism to be anything other than just another church in America. The missionaries explained to me (and it took them a year and multiple sets) that the CoJCoLDS claimed to be a restoration initiated by Christ. If this was true then it was not acceptable to just by kinda Catholic and kinda nice and kinda …
I can also say point to some things I am less proud of.
I first attended a Protestant church service instead of the local Catholic Church when the priest spent his whole homily on donating to the collections plate and not just putting in a dollar. I surely missed his point, but I didn’t attend their the next week (though I would spend most Sundays for another 2 years in some Catholic Church).
When I was out driving my sports car to fast through the streets of Idaho, I met a couple of fellow delinquents driving too fast. I was impressed by how these delinquents were not like the normal folks I met while out at midnight wandering the streets. I was later impressed when one of them out of deference to his mother did not go out dancing (not because there would be drinking, because TOm didn’t drink, but because the girls you meet there would not be …). Still, it was impressive to me and different. I began looking into the CoJCoLDS more seriously.
Finally, I am not sure I would have made it through the 2-3 year process that began above if after “beginning looking into the CoJCoLDS more seriously” I had not met my wife who was and is a LDS.

It is an easier world when one can say, “Silly TOm became a LDS because of a sermon he likely misunderstood, returned missionaries who were different than other denizens of the night, and of course because of a girl.” I hope such is not true (untrue like all the reasons LDS, myself not always excluded, try to paste upon folks who leave our communion), but all of the above facts are true.
Charity, TOm
Well, honestly, while I’m attracted by Catholicism, I am not a Roman Catholic, so no, that’s not how I would summarize what happened. 😃

But negative experiences can obviously deter someone from a certain faith group. I grew up in Evangelicalism all of my life, and bad experience with the most recent church I attended was a reason why I left it.

But theological convictions didn’t spur you closer to LDS?
 
Well, honestly, while I’m attracted by Catholicism, I am not a Roman Catholic, so no, that’s not how I would summarize what happened.
But negative experiences can obviously deter someone from a certain faith group. I grew up in Evangelicalism all of my life, and bad experience with the most recent church I attended was a reason why I left it.
But theological convictions didn’t spur you closer to LDS?
As I looked at all I was learning about the CoJCoLDS I was convinced that, “Joseph could not have done it, and the devil would not have done it.”
I do not remember being radically drawn to the theology just convinced that if God started a church in 1830 that was still around in 1997, I should be a member.
I have since found great beauty and power in the theology. The rejection of Creation ex Nihilo (Jerusha, does Institutes of Ecclesiastical History by Mosheim speak of Creation ex Nihilo?) IMO is quite powerful. The rejections of God’s impassiblity is important IMO. I am not a fan of “homoousian” in its “numeric” sense. Many things now come to mind when you say this, but I do not remember being drawn to them.
Charity, TOm
 
Funny how different people view different things. I could never stomach Mormon teachings that were all about themselves being gods.
 
HI Tom,

I should have clarified my response to you…not quite sure what you meant by spiritual and intellectual conflicts.

I offered my Mass for you today at our local sanctuary. I met a former Baptist, Afro American, who told me after she converted, that I was the first authentic Roman Catholic she had met in her life. She now reads the Oxford Review, has grown so much in her knowledge and devotion to the Blessed Mother, is very devout in traditional Catholic devotions, and once again retired in another state, leading her bible study comprised mostly of Anglo American Catholics.

I think the 20th century was a good example of the Great Apostasy. We see the losses now.

Somehow I see you as a casualty of those times where the ‘tail of the dragon’ dragged down a third of the stars in heaven…bishops who compromised with the niceties of the world. Pope Leo XIII, had an inner locution after Mass in the late 1890’s, a dialogue between Christ and Satan. Satan told Him he wanted to destroy His church. Christ gave His consent and asked him how many years would he like. Satan responded he wanted 100 years to destroy the Church, and so it was granted.

Pope Leo was so afflicted, that he composed the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel. He asked that all parishes in the world pray this prayer right after Mass. In 1899, the year before the 20th century, he consecrated the world to the Sacred Heart of Jesus for the 20th century.

Ven. Catherine Emmerich saw a future council of bishops who appeared to be meeting in the fog. She also foresaw a strange church of the future to be led by some bishop that would call itself ‘evangelical’. Future times, she said, would be so afflicted to Catholics that they would not even be sure of the tenements of their own faith.

There was an alleged movement in the latter part of the 20th century to make the Church more protestant. We do not have the disciplines like before, and English speaking people are desiring to have the return of meatless Friday’s so we can share together the same penance that is easy to remember and fulfill.

The prayer to St. Michael after Mass was let go back then following Vatican II. Only remote areas continued to do so. Praying to St. Michael after Mass is making its come back in some very devout parishes now.

Jesus had grave forewarnings about becoming lukewarm, that He would spit us out.

What you experienced in a vulnerable time in your life, was lukewarm Christianity that compromised itself with the world.

I think the exemplary witness you saw of these Mormon youth is understandable.

I also want to mention as well, reflecting and praying for you last night, – I could not sleep for 2 hours in the night, – that without the Eucharist and the Mass, without the foundation of the apostles, you are leaving out missing links, the Eucharist being the summit of our faith.

You are looking too much at people, and you did not look enough at the actual physical presence of God in the Eucharist, Who resides among us.

Not giving attention to Our Lord in the tabernacle is one of the great afflictions against Christ in the Church today, the loss of Eucharistic prayer unbinding Satan. If only more Catholics paid attention to Him, and I myself need to give more time to Our Lord Who waits for us.

Our faith is wholistic, that includes the intellectual, very important, but the bigger element is that the Church is mystical, and that this mystical reality is realized in the Mass and the sacraments, and in the summit of the Eucharist, insured by the apostolic succession.

I simply find the Mormon claims that after Christ and His apostles left, then there was the great and gradual falling away from the true faith. That is why Catholics say Mormons appear to claim by their convictions that Christ failed in establishing His Church, and contradicting His promise He would remain with us, that He would teach us many more things in the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Pentecost was the beginning of the Church…the beginning…and not a foreshadow of the end of the true Church just so many years later. Just the opposite as I told you, that we were solidly established just so many years later after Christ’s death, resurrection, and glorious ascension into heaven, where He is joined to us at Mass and brings us before the Heavenly Father.

It cannot be said that the Mormons restored Christ’s wishes as there is now actual witness to the life of Christ 1800 years later… a great gap.

What merit does Mormonism have to say that it is fully ‘decked’ to restore that which is lost, implying that Christ and His apostles were inadequate to insure the life of Christ in His Church?, that Christ did not give the apostles authority to choose successors?

We are people of faith and reason. The Mormons’ claim that Christ and His witnesses were nulled upon their death, after giving them authority to found His church — meaning His Church that goes on – works against the belief in the grace of God in Christ’ resurrection, breaking the power of death, sin, and time, His atonement for our sins in His wounded but glorious triumph presence, is denying the very essence of Christ Himself.

This position of the Great Apostasy simply defies Christ’s mission for all of humanity.

The universal (in Greek, Catholic) Christian Church was set ‘in rock’ as ‘kmg’ described. Our 4 cornerstones are one, holy, catholic, and apostolic of the Church…

vs. Mormonism which has had over 3000 changes to its beliefs over the course of 200 years.

I think Mormonism is evolving into a humanistic Christianity with the help of reflecting and drawing from Catholic elucidations of the Christology and ecclesiolgy of Jesus Christ.
 
Funny how different people view different things. I could never stomach Mormon teachings that were all about themselves
being gods.
I can honestly say that where I to be a Catholic, I would need to embrace some form of hypostatic union present within Christ’s person. I would however confess with the ECF that Christ participated in my humanity so that I might participate in His divinity. I would profess that Christ is homoousian with me in His humanity and homoousian with God in His divinity.
As a LDS I recognize the pedigree of Christ is different than my pedigree as He was/is eternally divine and I am to become divine but only through the atonement Christ provided. Again in Catholicism I would embrace the different pedigree for Christ.
The Catholic position IMO requires a great deal more “backflips” and does not align as well with the position of ECF as the LDS position does. A small caveat being that pre-Nicene orthodoxy was subordinationism so when the pre-Nicene Fathers said we were to become what Christ is, they did not mean “divine in precisely the same way God the Father is divine.” In truth as a Catholic or as a LDS I would not mean divine in precisely the same way God the Father is divine (since God the Father is the fount of divinity and God the Son is not the fount of divinity).
So as the Son’s position was defined (developed ala Newman) MORE and MORE, the fact that men were to become what Christ was got left behind (some).

With all that said, as a Catholic you SHOULD acknowledge that God the Son wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, became homoousian with us, so that He, made man, might make us gods.
I personally find the rejection of deification to not be something associated with humility, but perhaps I am just too prideful to see my folly.
Charity, TOm
 
I can honestly say that where I to be a Catholic, I would need to embrace some form of hypostatic union present within Christ’s person. I would however confess with the ECF that Christ participated in my humanity so that I might participate in His divinity. I would profess that Christ is homoousian with me in His humanity and homoousian with God in His divinity.
As a LDS I recognize the pedigree of Christ is different than my pedigree as He was/is eternally divine and I am to become divine but only through the atonement Christ provided. Again in Catholicism I would embrace the different pedigree for Christ.
The Catholic position IMO requires a great deal more “backflips” and does not align as well with the position of ECF as the LDS position does. A small caveat being that pre-Nicene orthodoxy was subordinationism so when the pre-Nicene Fathers said we were to become what Christ is, they did not mean “divine in precisely the same way God the Father is divine.” In truth as a Catholic or as a LDS I would not mean divine in precisely the same way God the Father is divine (since God the Father is the fount of divinity and God the Son is not the fount of divinity).
So as the Son’s position was defined (developed ala Newman) MORE and MORE, the fact that men were to become what Christ was got left behind (some).

With all that said, as a Catholic you SHOULD acknowledge that God the Son wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, became homoousian with us, so that He, made man, might make us gods.
I personally find the rejection of deification to not be something associated with humility, but perhaps I am just too prideful to see my folly.
Charity, TOm
Tom,

I say this with all love as a brother in Christ…that LDS is leading you astray from the one True Church that Christ established on earth. He said that “he who hears you, hears me…and the one who sent me”. This “you” is the Catholic Church. It makes no sense that Christ would establish a Church, send the Holy Spirit to guide it in all Truth, say that he would be with this Church until the end of the age and then immediately, immediately let it fail. Also consider that the church grew “greatly”, guided by the Holy Spirit. There was no apostasy, no need for a restoration. As such, LDS is following a false gospel inspired by the evil one, listened to and followed by Joseph Smith. 1 Galatians is clear and the words of warning are repeated.

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you* by [the] grace [of Christ] for a different gospel
7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even** if we or an angel (Moroni) from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!**
9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!

Kathleen is right on. You are missing Christ in the Eucharist, a gift of grace that he has given to us, allowing us to join him in the heavenly banquet on earth. John 6 is clear that the bread and wine become his resurrected body and blood. The early Church is clear and consistent in believing this…scripture is clear.

Consider returning to his Church and participating in his banquet on earth.
 
What do you want to choose…the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil…or the fruit God showed to Adam and Eve that they could eat…the Tree of Life.

The Eucharist provides us eternal life with God. We share in the communion of the Holy Trinity.

Nothing on this earth can be compared to entering into the life of the Holy Trinity.
 
Lax:

couple years ago I met a dentist originally from India & a life-long Catholic. He told me he was from St Thomas’s line who went there evangelizing when the Apostles’ spread out after the Ascension of our Lord. As a result, Catholicism caught hold & survived many centuries without much communication from Mother Church!

How can LDS claim an “apostasy” in this instance?
Pepband Mom -

Interesting - I just read this about Saint Thomas in the book “The Twelve: The Lives of the Apostles after Calvary” after reading your post:

The earliest source for knowledge of Thomas’s ministry in India is a Syriac document, probably written in Edessa around A.D. 200, known as The Acts of Thomas. Described as a historical novel, a piece of fiction written for entertainment, it is based on historical fact. Thomas was a national hero for the Christians of Osroene and they enjoyed reading about the founder of their national Church. In addition to The Acts of Thomas, a document attributed to the third-centry author Hippolystus also located Thomas’s ministry in India as well as Iran…

Obviously, there was not a great apostasy when we see how Christianity spread throughout the world, thanks to the Apostles. 👍

I have never had a Mormon explain this to me. They always ignore my question about Christianity in other parts of the world outside the realm of Rome.

I had two LDS missionaries in our home for several visits and I asked them when the Great Apostasy happened. They said it happened “somewhere in the 200’s A.D.” I then asked how could it be when all of my relatives have been Catholic as far back as Saint Patrick. They looked at each other with big eyes, shrugged their shoulders, and said they have no idea how that could have happened.😛
 
Kathleen,
Thank you for your prayers and I can tell that you are that “authentic Roman Catholic” your friend met.
I agree that there have been some post Vatican II compromises some of which I do not think are even the best read of what Vatican II was doing (I have SSPX and Sedavacantist friends and I do not think I would follow them in their faith walk).
I am sorry you lost sleep over me. That is part of the reason I said I was not just being a nice guy. I am quite a committed LDS and quite thick headed as well.
I once told a nice lady about my Catholic friend that he had an even bigger problem with using (and trusting) his intellect. She got very serious and said, “I will pray for you both.” My Catholic friend has thought himself out of Catholicism. I, like Cardinal Newman, thank God that for whatever reason I find my spiritual and intellectual life well aligned. When I considered atheism as a Catholic youth, it just didn’t make sense. Still doesn’t. I hope I am not too arrogant when I say, “God recognizes my arrogance and deals softly with me lest I rely wholly on myself and forget that I am nothing without Him.”
Thank you for your prayers. I no longer ask God to direct me in finding His church as I think I have received His answer (both spiritually and the way God has aligned my intellect). But, I always tell Him that I desire to follow Him where He leads, help me in my fear.
Charity, TOm
 
Thank you for your kind acknowledgement of my prayers…but no, you did not keep me awake at night.

I usually wake up between 2:30 am to 3:00 am…Did you know this is an international phenomena…even a mystic said in modern times there would be those who pray at night for the world.

No I was simply experiencing your lack of Catholic witness in those times. It was so common.

And, as things happened to me in the late 90’s while in ministry, as well as prior to that witnessing theological and orthopraxic abuses in the Church, and going against our ancient Traditions, seeing their impact on the faith of our young, how it paralyzed or put Catholics against each other…just like we are seeing in our country today…I can also attest to the fact, that things began turning around for me late in 1999 and into 2000…

Now we are preparing for evangelizing and not being passive anymore with misconceptions spread about us by some of our separated brethren.

Bottom line…the Church is a living sacrament, the Bride of Christ…Our entire being as Church is mystical and we are sustained and nurtured by no other than Jesus Christ Himself. Quoting Fr Goetschel, Franciscan, that when the Church has bad fruit, just as Jesus demonstrated in His gospel, He would remove the bad tree not bearing fruit.

How a number of times Scripture uses the ordinary human necessity of eating fruit for our entrance into divinity.

In CCC460, if you look at footnotes, the ancients are referring to the Eucharist. And you have to read it contextually, meaning from sequence to sequence. Through baptism, we become partakers in the divine life, but we are creatures. We share in the creative power of God when we become parents. The Eucharist comes from the Tree of Life, and the appropriate time to save and redeem us, one day at a time.

I wish I could live within blocks of a church. I am old world. I want to revolve my life around Him and live out the liturgical year with him.

God bless you, and blessed Advent.

kathleen

PS My Dominican pastor told me the minority of Catholics come to Christ intellectually. Perhaps you should have some talks with those Dominicans. I am of the Augustinian mendicant tradition where we focus on fraternal unity and draw on the various disciplines, resources, and gifts the Church…should I say, more wholistic?
 
PS My Dominican pastor told me the minority of Catholics come to Christ intellectually. Perhaps you should have some talks with those Dominicans. I am of the Augustinian mendicant tradition where we focus on fraternal unity and draw on the various disciplines, resources, and gifts the Church…should I say, more wholistic?
The “lights on” moment demands more wholistic processing. Until that happens, all the intellectual arguments on earth will not change the individual.

Fears that one may be beyond God’s forgiveness, or that a change in beliefs involves major changes in one’s social environment are sometimes operational.
 
I usually wake up between 2:30 am to 3:00 am…Did you know this is an international phenomena…even a mystic said in modern times there would be those who pray at night for the world.
Yep. Happens to me every night about the same time as you. Sometimes I’m not even sure who I am suppose to be praying for. Sometimes its very clear, even people I haven’t thought about for years are suddenly weighing on my heart. My priest told me that these are true promptings of the Holy Spirit and, as you said, it is a fairly common phenomena.

👍
 
My research process has led me to places that I am sure no researcher had ever considered. I am sure some guidance was in action. My mind is becoming more in tune with Catholic mysticism. Viewing everything through a psychological lens has real limitations, perhaps the largest being accusations of being imbalanced. I am so eager to get a copy of Meister Eckhart’s works. Even though he ventured a bit beyond the pale, he was still submitted to the church.

No longer afraid of Catholic mysticism. I was once told that I had no reason to be afraid. 👍
 
Could you clarify what you mean?
Sorry. The title of this thread caught my attention. But I don’t mean what the Mormons mean. What you were saying struck me as descriptive of the state of faith today. If I were to put a date on it, it would be the date of the Encyclical Humane Vitae. One of the signs of the times before Our Lord’s return is apostasy. “And yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth.” (Lk 18:8.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top