A date for the "Great Apostasy"

[RebeccaJ]

LDS do not have room to believe that the bread and water is transformed permanently into Christ’s body and blood, but there is a wonderful quote from Brigham Young where he comes very close to claiming this. At the very least, I believe we partake of Christ during the Sacrament. I have nothing negative to say about Eucharistic adoration, and this is not something a LDS would be able to do (except as a contemplative exercise in a Catholic chapel!).

Jesus is a symbol for Mormonism. Partaking of a symbol means what?

“Holy Envy” is a term that I believe should be recognized, but alas it is not.
Here is where it comes from Krister Stendahl’s three rules:

I always state rule #2 as “compare best to best.”

And … I do not know why you should say I “covet being a god.” I see the Bible and the ECF teaching that we are to become gods. I do not believe we will EVER replace God or cease to worship God. Instead, we will become part of the Triune life God enjoys.
Charity, TOm

The Bible and ECFs teach we become like God. We do not become gods. What you believe is blasphemy, to all Catholics, east and west.

By covet, you remind me of Simon magus, who sought confirmation because he sought the power of God, and wanted to possess it. Holy envy?

 

[TOmNossor]

Jesus is a symbol for Mormonism. Partaking of a symbol means what?

The Bible and ECFs teach we become like God. We do not become gods. What you believe is blasphemy, to all Catholics, east and west.

By covet, you remind me of Simon magus, who sought confirmation because he sought the power of God, and wanted to possess it. Holy envy?

Becoming “gods” is the term used by many ECF. Before Athanatius NONE ever place a limit on the divine potential of humans.
The LIMITS are the development.
please show me any ECF before the 4th century that when speaking of men becoming gods placed any limits on what that means.

 

[LivingWaters7]

The Bible and ECFs teach we become like God. We do not become gods. What you believe is blasphemy, to all Catholics, east and west.

Latter-day Saints frequently say that we can “become like God”. We also say that we can “become gods”. Both phrases mean the same thing for us.

The ECFs didn’t say that we can “become gods”? That’s odd, I guess the CCC is in error:
*
460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”*-quoting Athanasius and Aquinas.

Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, Jerome, Irenaeus, etc all talked about becoming “gods”.

Whether or not their beliefs align perfectly with Latter-day Saint belief on exaltation (I am not saying that) is a different matter (and whether it is blasphemous for Catholics isn’t bothersome for us), however, in response to your claim, it is clear that ECFs have taught that we can “become gods”.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Tom and LW, you overlay Mormon belief onto catholic writings and teachings. This is an error, and poor scholarship.

CCC 460 and the ECFs are understood in a Catholic context, which is centered on Christ in the Eucharist. We become gods but are not God. We are like God. There is never a Catholic teaching that defines Creator and created as the same thing but one above the other based on “progression”. This is wholly a Mormon invention. You will find no Mormon idea of godhood among Catholics, at any time or place. No progression. No pre-existence. No sin as design in order that you might become a god.

There is but one God, and no other. Mormonism makes a mockery of God by claiming multiple gods, including yourselves as god. This is not Catholic teaching and never has been.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Tom and LW, you overlay Mormon belief onto catholic writings and teachings. This is an error, and poor scholarship.

CCC 460 and the ECFs are understood in a Catholic context, which is centered on Christ in the Eucharist. We become gods but are not God. We are like God. There is never a Catholic teaching that defines Creator and created as the same thing but one above the other based on “progression”. This is wholly a Mormon invention. You will find no Mormon idea of godhood among Catholics, at any time or place. No progression. No pre-existence. No sin as design in order that you might become a god.

Please reread my post again. I said nothing at all about Latter-day Saint belief, nor that the ECFs were teaching Latter-day Saint beliefs on exaltation (if you read my post, you will note that I state that I am not saying that the ECFs beliefs aligned perfectly with LDS beliefs. That is what you are reading into what I actually stated). But I knew that this would be your response, hence why I said that earlier.

What I actually was referring to (and what Tom was referring to), was your statement-“The Bible and ECFs teach we become like God. We do not become gods.”. Clearly, the CCC, as well as numerous ECFs, state that it is possible to “become gods”. I am not commenting on what that means, whether it’s the same thing as LDS belief on exaltation (as I already mentioned), etc. You said that “we do not become gods”, your Catechism, and the ECFs, say otherwise. So, maybe you should revise your statement to be “we do not become gods as in the LDS understanding, but we do become gods”, since that’s what your church is teaching (again, I am not saying that it is the same as LDS teaching on the matter).

It’s amusing that in this post, you now say “We become gods but are not God”, yet earlier you said “we do not become gods”. Further, you say that you become gods but not God, yet Athanasius is quoted in the CCC as stating-“For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” (note again that I am saying nothing about this meaning what Latter-day Saints believe). So, perhaps you need to clarify your statements, since you say one thing in one post, then another thing in another, then something that seems to conflict with what your church and what various ECFs have said (again without making comparison to LDS beliefs or reading our latter-day revealed beliefs into them).

 

[RebeccaJ]

LW, we partake In the divine nature we do not become that nature. The statement we become gods is understood in the doctrines of theosis as exactly that. Which has nothing to do with what Mormons believe, which is indeed the subject of this thread.

There has never been a Catholic who believes that people are punky gods in training.

Maybe you think you are going to be a god with people who you create from existing matter and they will worship you in your godliness. Catholics do not and never have.

Get it straight.

 

[Horatius]

I am not commenting on what that means

Then why did you bring it up?

If you can show that the Early Church Fathers taught specifically the LDS doctrine of exaltation, then show us. If all you have is that they used words that could support your view if taken out of context, then please spare us. We’re not going to fall for it.

Mormon literature condemns Athanasius as one of the great villains of the Apostasy. And now you want to use his words, and the words of a medieval Scholastic, to lend credence your doctrine?

 

[KathleenGee]

Regarding CCC460, Mormons bring this passage up from our universal catechism.

What they are doing is ignoring all the passages leading up to this. It is very clear in our universal catechims that we never seek to be a god. And they are ignoring the footnotes to CCC460 that refer to the Eucharist, and we enter into the life of the Holy Trinity as creatures, as partakers, but never become gods.

The Eastern Orthodox never believe either they become gods…especially with their history and the loss of Constantinople to Islam, the great persecution over the Orthodox by the Communist regimes…with all their suffering for centuries…Mormons…go ask Orthodox and in the context of their history, see if you can find themselves on the road to being a god.

I thought Genesis was very clear…the forbidden fruit and Satan tempting them to be gods…this is the cause of Original Sin.

We have many Catholics who have fulfilled great accomplishments in their lives, the Vatican Library is testament to it.

Our response to Christ is to live off His grace and power to relieve the suffering of those around us as humble servants of the Lord.

Again…what do Mormons think about themselves becoming gods in the next life…

 

[twopekinguys]

LW, we partake In the divine nature we do not become that nature. The statement we become gods is understood in the doctrines of theosis as exactly that. Which has nothing to do with what Mormons believe, which is indeed the subject of this thread.

There has never been a Catholic who believes that people are punky gods in training.

Maybe you think you are going to be a god with people who you create from existing matter and they will worship you in your godliness. Catholics do not and never have.

Get it straight.

+1

 

[batman1973]

[The gospel is]a way of life, the plan of personal salvation, and is based upon personal responsibility. It is developed for man, the offspring of God.** Man is a god in embryo and has in him the seeds of godhood,** and he can, if he will, rise to great heights.”-Spencer Woolley Kimball, 12th Mormon president. Any one care to guess that this was not a teaching of the ECFs or the Church of Jesus Christ of Former Day Saints? (as mormons love to call the early church. Emphasis mine)

 

[TOmNossor]

Then why did you bring it up?

If you can show that the Early Church Fathers taught specifically the LDS doctrine of exaltation, then show us. If all you have is that they used words that could support your view if taken out of context, then please spare us. We’re not going to fall for it.

Mormon literature condemns Athanasius as one of the great villains of the Apostasy. And now you want to use his words, and the words of a medieval Scholastic, to lend credence your doctrine?

I have stated a little more than LW did (and he is precisely correct that folks are contradicting themselves in successive posts).

No ECF before Athanatius when claiming “men will become gods” limited the final state of deified humans. All modern Catholic scholars always make it clear that they are limiting the final state of the deified.
The limits on deification contained in Catholic thought are a development.

Perhaps when they said “men will be gods” the ECF meant in some limited sense, but such is not present. I wonder why no modern Catholic is willing to speak of deification in the same way as these ECF.
I have seen some remarkable"backflips" to get around what was clearly taught by the ECF.
Charity, TOm

 

[kimg901]

Latter-day Saints frequently say that we can “become like God”. We also say that we can “become gods”. Both phrases mean the same thing for us.

The ECFs didn’t say that we can “become gods”? That’s odd, I guess the CCC is in error:
*
460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God*.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”-quoting Athanasius and Aquinas.

Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, Jerome, Irenaeus, etc all talked about becoming “gods”.

Whether or not their beliefs align perfectly with Latter-day Saint belief on exaltation (I am not saying that) is a different matter (and whether it is blasphemous for Catholics isn’t bothersome for us), however, in response to your claim, it is clear that ECFs have taught that we can “become gods”.

The highlighted area makes me think. Will you have power like God? To create humans and animals and such? The only way we become “God-like” is that when we die and are in His Kingdom, we will be without sin. Or do you believe God has sin?

 

[LivingWaters7]

LW, we partake In the divine nature we do not become that nature. The statement we become gods is understood in the doctrines of theosis as exactly that. Which has nothing to do with what Mormons believe, which is indeed the subject of this thread.

There has never been a Catholic who believes that people are punky gods in training.

Maybe you think you are going to be a god with people who you create from existing matter and they will worship you in your godliness. Catholics do not and never have.

Get it straight.

And again, the specific issue was one of your statements, which was in conflict with what your own church and what various ECFs have stated. You said we don’t become gods, your church and various ECFs specifically state that we can become gods. You say we don’t become God, your church and various ECFs specifically state that we become God. Naturally there is an underlying theology (that I was not addressing, merely just your specific statement), and if by your statement you meant “we don’t become gods in the LDS sense, but we do become gods in the Catholic sense”, then you should have been more clear as to what you were saying, as it seemed that you were saying that you become like God, not gods, and that there’s a distinction between the two concepts, when in fact we see “becoming gods” in the CCC.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Then why did you bring it up?

Because we are responding to a specific statement (do Catholics believe that we can become gods or not? Whether or not the answer is “yes” says nothing about whether that concept is the same as the Latter-day Saint concept, as I have stated more than once).

If you can show that the Early Church Fathers taught specifically the LDS doctrine of exaltation, then show us. If all you have is that they used words that could support your view if taken out of context, then please spare us. We’re not going to fall for it.

If you actually read the thread, you will see the progression in the thread. A specific statement was made, and we were responding to that claim. Please cite the post where I was referencing the ECFs to “lend credence” to the Latter-day Saint doctrine of exaltation. Hint: it isn’t there, so there’s nothing for you to “fall” for.

 

[Horatius]

No ECF before Athanatius when claiming “men will become gods” limited the final state of deified humans.

Can you give an example? If you’ve already given one on this thread I apologize. I think I read the whole thing but I might have missed something.

Does the word “gods” appear in the plural over and over in the ECF, or just once? What is the context? Does the context suggest Catholic deification, Mormon exaltation, or something else?

Cherry-picking random lines from the Fathers doesn’t give a convincing picture.

All modern Catholic scholars always make it clear that they are limiting the final state of the deified.

To be fair, Mormons “limit” it too, when they say that Heavenly Father will still be their god even when they’ve also become gods.

Perhaps when they said “men will be gods” the ECF meant in some limited sense, but such is not present.

Are you saying that if the ECF were really Catholic, then they should have anticipated Mormon arguments and qualified their language accordingly?

 

[Horatius]

You said we don’t become gods, your church and various ECFs specifically state that we can become gods. You say we don’t become God, your church and various ECFs specifically state that we become God. Naturally there is an underlying theology (that I was not addressing, merely just your specific statement), and if by your statement you meant “we don’t become gods in the LDS sense, but we do become gods in the Catholic sense”, then you should have been more clear as to what you were saying, as it seemed that you were saying that you become like God, not gods, and that there’s a distinction between the two concepts, when in fact we see “becoming gods” in the CCC.

Because we are responding to a specific statement (do Catholics believe that we can become gods or not? Whether or not the answer is “yes” says nothing about whether that concept is the same as the Latter-day Saint concept, as I have stated more than once).

If you actually read the thread, you will see the progression in the thread. A specific statement was made, and we were responding to that claim. Please cite the post where I was referencing the ECFs to “lend credence” to the Latter-day Saint doctrine of exaltation. Hint: it isn’t there, so there’s nothing for you to “fall” for.

Okay, so why are you making a big deal about Rebecca’s wording?

If a Church Father said “we become gods,” he meant Catholic deification. If Rebecca objects to that wording on this thread, it’s obviously because there are people here who will misinterpret that phrasing to mean exaltation.

If accusing Rebecca of contradicting her faith isn’t in the service of lending credence to your doctrine, then why are you making this an issue?

 

[asd72]

I have stated a little more than LW did (and he is precisely correct that folks are contradicting themselves in successive posts).

No ECF before Athanatius when claiming “men will become gods” limited the final state of deified humans. All modern Catholic scholars always make it clear that they are limiting the final state of the deified.
The limits on deification contained in Catholic thought are a development.

Perhaps when they said “men will be gods” the ECF meant in some limited sense, but such is not present. I wonder why no modern Catholic is willing to speak of deification in the same way as these ECF.
I have seen some remarkable"backflips" to get around what was clearly taught by the ECF.
Charity, TOm

The statement “men will become gods” was understood differently by the Church Fathers compared to the LDS. To get the sense of what they meant, look at their statements in unity with the rest of their teaching, and in unity with the rest of the church.

One example: LivingWater7 cited St Justin Martyr as someone who supported the “men will become gods” teaching. Let’s put that in context of another teaching of his to see whether he meant it in the sense that the LDS do…

"There will be no other God, Trypo, nor was there from eternity any other…but he who made this universe. Nor do we think that there is one God for us and another for you, but that he alone is God who led your fathers out of Egypt with a strong hand and a high arm. Nor have we trusted in any other, for there is no other, but him, in whom you also have trusted, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob [Dialogue with Trypo 11 (c. A.D.155)].

Looking at this statement from St Justin Martyr we can see he believes:

1. There WILL BE no other God.
2. There HAS BEEN no other God from eternity.

It is apparent that St Justin Martyr did not mean “men will become gods” in the way the LDS do. He has ruled out both past and the future new gods there!!

A study of the Early Church Fathers would be a useful thing to compare to LDS teachings. A recommendation for you which is available from the store on this site or amazon, including kindle:

The Fathers know best: Your Essential Guide to the Teachings of the Early Church. By Jimmy Akin.

A Catholic study of the Church Fathers is not neccessary, there are reputable Protestant studies also, but be aware of fundamentalist anti Catholic guides, which are recognized by there lack if clear source citations.

 

[KathleenGee]

I am afraid the former Catholics, now Mormons are in the right place where they belong. Stay in Mormonism. You would flunk Catholic Catechism 101 for taking CCC 460 out of context.

If you have ever done any scholastic writing, and have done any presentations on any personage, it is most important that you accurately portray them and their works.

If you want to take the correct understanding on CCC460, then go back previous concepts, and read as well the footnotes of that particular catechesis.

If you study the early Church Fathers, St. Justin the Martyr wrote the most complete description of the Mass then for the Roman Emperor in 154 AD…and reading other writings of his, he never intended we would become gods.

I have never even heard of Christians being taught they will become gods some day until I came across Mormon teachings just so many years ago.

Go visit our Orthodox threads and you will not find a single soul seeking to become God in ‘theosis’. We will come into perfect communion with the Holy Trinity when we are in heaven. But as St. Paul and St. Thomas indicated, we have no idea what awaits us. But they never indicated we would become our own gods.

Such a thinking is putting God down to the level of man.

As St. Thomas Aquinas said, our understanding of God can be compared to the eye of an owl next to the sun. Think about it, an owl’s eye only works in darkness.

The early Protestant reformers approached the Orthodox and they swiftly excused the reformers, wanting nothing to do with concept of faith. All the more they would not accept man becoming a god any more than a Catholic.

To propose a man become god on his temple recommends…and baptize dead people not even calling on the Lord Jesus Christ…you are free to believe as you want.

But no such ideas existed prior to Joseph Smith within Judeo Christianity.

The greatest signs we can see living the divine life are the saints. Consider Mother Theresa of Calcutta.

There is an educator who talks about levels of faith, Thomas Groehm. Mother Theresa of Calcutta and Albert Einstein had faith in God that was immersed in the transcendence of God. Yet they were humble people and knew they were only instruments of a greater good.

Like Mary, in contrast to Eve, their motivating force was ‘yes’ to God, to life, to the will of God.

But don’t misquote the early Church Fathers or St. Athanasius…because you are taking their writings out of context.

I am afraid

 

[KathleenGee]

I meant to say I am afraid I don’t have names right. Now I do.

Thomas Groome speaks to us of James W Fowler, in his Stages of Faith. There are 6 levels of faith according to Fowler…check out www.faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/fowler.htm

The last stage is the sixth, having universalizing faith. Very few people reach this level. Again we refer to Mother Theresa, as well as Martin Luther King, and Mahatma Gandhi.

'Many times such people are killed by those they hope to change. They often end up being themselves the ultimate sacrifice.

They have a 'generated faith compositions, a felt sense of the ultimate environment, inclusive of all, beings ‘incarnators and actualizers of the spriit’ of inclusive and fulfilled human community.

They are contagious, helping free people of political, social, economic, and idealogical shackles, participating in power that unifies and transforms the world. Many times universalizers are honored after they are dead.

Universalizers have a special grace to make them seem more lucid, more simple, and – more fully human than the rest of us. Their community is universal in extent. Such persons are ready for fellowship with any human being irregardless of traditions or faith’.

This unifying, universalizing faith makes us more human, not make us gods.

Isn’t this the great work of Jesus Christ? To make us more human and more humane, more truly who we are rather than make us seek to become another god, another creator???

The apostasy is the turning away from God to that which does not lead to Him. He is our Lord and creator, Jesus Christ is the face of God, the universal face of God, the force within us to make us more truly human. The more we turn to Christ, dying to self, the more truly real we become. And those with the greatest faith are those who are most human and recognize common humanity with all persons.

God does not need us, but He created us out of love, and we prove our love for Him by obeying the commandments, His teachings, and by eating the Fruit of the Tree of Life that helps us recognize His presence in our neighbor, He leads us to serve our neighbor to alleviate their suffering and to help them have a godly sense of their own human dignity…which is not based on themselves but given to them by God alone.

God is the source of our dignity. And Jesus is the One who restores us to God and to our humanity and our true self.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Please reread my post again. I said nothing at all about Latter-day Saint belief, nor that the ECFs were teaching Latter-day Saint beliefs on exaltation (if you read my post, you will note that I state that I am not saying that the ECFs beliefs aligned perfectly with LDS beliefs. That is what you are reading into what I actually stated). But I knew that this would be your response, hence why I said that earlier.

What I actually was referring to (and what Tom was referring to), was your statement-"**The Bible and ECFs teach we become like God.

We do not become gods.**". Clearly, the CCC, as well as numerous ECFs, state that it is possible to “become gods”. I am not commenting on what that means, whether it’s the same thing as LDS belief on exaltation (as I already mentioned), etc. You said that “we do not become gods”, your Catechism, and the ECFs, say otherwise. So, maybe you should revise your statement to be “we do not become gods as in the LDS understanding, but we do become gods”, since that’s what your church is teaching (again, I am not saying that it is the same as LDS teaching on the matter).

It’s amusing that in this post, you now say “We become gods but are not God”, yet earlier you said “we do not become gods”. Further, you say that you become gods but not God, yet Athanasius is quoted in the CCC as stating-“For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” (note again that I am saying nothing about this meaning what Latter-day Saints believe). So, perhaps you need to clarify your statements, since you say one thing in one post, then another thing in another, then something that seems to conflict with what your church and what various ECFs have said (again without making comparison to LDS beliefs or reading our latter-day revealed beliefs into them).

LW, Mormons say,“we become Gods”, which has a meaning of, you are of the same nature as God. Polytheistic concepts and ideas, which no Catholic at any time has ever taught or believed.

When I say to you, a Mormon, we do not believe we become Gods, I mean WE DO NOT BECOME GODS. I honestly think Mormons become daft when discussing this subject. So let me type it out again, WE DO NOT BECOME GODS.

If you can hold that thought in your mind, when a Catholic says to a Catholic, we become gods, we are saying we become like God. With Mormons, we just have to be clear because your obsession to be a god overrides everything else you think about.

Every Catholic already understand that we are not God and never will be. It isn’t something that has to be explained, because we aren’t Mormons! No Catholic is walking around thinking they are a god in embryo, because we already understand that we are created and God is not. Therefore, we already know that there is no such thing as a god in embryo, because something that is created IS NOT GOD AND NEVER WILL BE.

It’s only when Mormons come around with this idea in their heads that they are gods, and start trying to make Catholic teaching into something it isn’t, that we even have to clarify FOR YOU. But obviously, Mormons never listen.

Put Catholic teaching into its context, which is CATHOLIC, not Mormon. Read the sections of the CCC before 460, and especially read the footnotes. Read the ECfs in context, all of whom profess the presence of Jesus, who is God, in the Eucharist.

The Eucharist is the central teaching of divination. When you deny the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, you have removed Catholic thought from which it is grounded. We, as Catholics, east and west, partake of the divine nature each time we receive God in the Eucharist. This is not a symbol.

Like all the Sacraments, we believe and understand that they prefigure the life to come. Just as the sacrifices in the OT prefigured the sacrifice of the Son of God. Those Sacrifices being fulfilled in and through Jesus Christ. So the Eucharist prefigures our life with God, what we call heaven. Our partaking of the divine nature in the Eucharist will be fulfilled in and through Jesus Christ. We partake of the divine nature, and so we become like God, but we can never become God because God is God, and we are not. It is that simple. God is above us, transcends us, and is our Creator. The created does not become the Creator and God is not created. God does not become, God is.

We are sons and daughters of God via adoption. We are not Gods, and never will be Gods. Not as you try to enforce into Catholic teaching. It is very accurate to say to you, in your beliefs, that we do not believe we become Gods. Because, we don’t. Anything else said to you is not understood by you. I can only think it is because your desire to be a god is so great, that you can’t give it up in order to understand.