A date for the "Great Apostasy"

[zaffiroborant]

I think Ostler’s “Compassionate Theory of the Atonement” comes closer than the Catholic theories I have read (and many LDS theories I like less than Ostlers).

Here is Blake Ostler’s “Compassionate Theory of the Atonement” in case anyone would like to check it out. Ostler’s explanation begins on page 11.
Me in it I see a Christ who not only can’t form a church (twice), can’t get His message across but can’t understand even humanity. unless he lives it aside from those who don’t see Christ as divine at all the LDS have to have the lowest Christology of any who claim to be Christian.

 

[dberrie2000]

Dberrie…about the rise in Mormon converts, many are leaving the Mormon religion here in USA.

In light of the fact that the LDS church posted one of the largest gains of all Christian denominations in the USA–and that most of the top 25 Christian denominations either posted no stats or negatives in their membership(19 of 25 largest “churches” in one poll) --that is a possibility for most other top 25 Christian denominations in the USA also.

 

[Porknpie]

In light of the fact that the LDS church posted one of the largest gains of all Christian denominations in the USA–and that most of the top 25 Christian denominations either posted no stats or negatives in their membership(19 of 25 largest “churches” in one poll) --that is a possibility for most other top 25 Christian denominations in the USA also.

Dberrie -

Matthew 5 makes it clear that Christ’s church was built on the mountain top for all to see its light. LDS contend that the Church failed to heed Christ, that Christ did not protect his Church and the the light, once lit, was put under a bushel basket, waiting 1800 years for Joseph Smith … 1.5 billion Catholics, East and West reflect the city that was built, that can not be hidden. No apostasy…

14 “You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hid. 15 No one after lighting a lamp puts it under the bushel basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.

 

[TOmNossor]

The statement “men will become gods” was understood differently by the Church Fathers compared to the LDS. To get the sense of what they meant, look at their statements in unity with the rest of their teaching, and in unity with the rest of the church.

One example: LivingWater7 cited St Justin Martyr as someone who supported the “men will become gods” teaching. Let’s put that in context of another teaching of his to see whether he meant it in the sense that the LDS do…

"There will be no other God, Trypo, nor was there from eternity any other…but he who made this universe. Nor do we think that there is one God for us and another for you, but that he alone is God who led your fathers out of Egypt with a strong hand and a high arm. Nor have we trusted in any other, for there is no other, but him, in whom you also have trusted, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob [Dialogue with Trypo 11 (c. A.D.155)].

Looking at this statement from St Justin Martyr we can see he believes:

1. There WILL BE no other God.
2. There HAS BEEN no other God from eternity.

It is apparent that St Justin Martyr did not mean “men will become gods” in the way the LDS do. He has ruled out both past and the future new gods there!!

A study of the Early Church Fathers would be a useful thing to compare to LDS teachings. A recommendation for you which is available from the store on this site or amazon, including kindle:

The Fathers know best: Your Essential Guide to the Teachings of the Early Church. By Jimmy Akin.

A Catholic study of the Church Fathers is not neccessary, there are reputable Protestant studies also, but be aware of fundamentalist anti Catholic guides, which are recognized by there lack if clear source citations.

Justin Martyr when he speaks of one God (in your quote and primarily) means “the Father” he places Christ in the “second place” and the Spirit in the third.
LDS are more in alignment with Justin in this respect than are modern Catholics.
What is still clear from Justin and the pre-Nicene Fathers and the Bible is that whatever Christ is we will become.

 

[TOmNossor]

Can you give an example? If you’ve already given one on this thread I apologize. I think I read the whole thing but I might have missed something.

Does the word “gods” appear in the plural over and over in the ECF, or just once? What is the context? Does the context suggest Catholic deification, Mormon exaltation, or something else?

Cherry-picking random lines from the Fathers doesn’t give a convincing picture.

To be fair, Mormons “limit” it too, when they say that Heavenly Father will still be their god even when they’ve also become gods.

Are you saying that if the ECF were really Catholic, then they should have anticipated Mormon arguments and qualified their language accordingly?

I am away from my computer, but here is an old thread (might be my first at CA)
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1624&highlight=irenaeus+deification

 

[RebeccaJ]

Christ is risen! With a resurrected body and eternal life. In this way, we do indeed become gods, as gods are immortal. This is clear in scripture, not a teaching that is hidden. What that entails,exactly, in the details, is not known, by anyone.

Co-opting Catholic teaching to prop up Mormon errors doesn’t mean the ECFs were Mormons. It means that Mormons are not understanding. Leave a lot out. Conjecture more than what is left out. Stumbles in the dark. No one is buying your twisting of Catholic teaching but yourselves.

God is God. Alpha and omega. Has no beginning and no end. God does not, and never has, died.

We as creatures have both a beginning and an end. We die, and because of Jesus Christ, God who became man, we are raised into eternal life. Jesus Christ raised himself from the dead, because he is God. We, as Christians die with him, and are raised.

All the Mormon “stuff” beyond that is outside of Catholic teaching. Something other. Not rooted in a God who is God, but a God who became God.

Any “God” who became or becomes God, is not God. God is.. Justin Martyr never teaches anything otherwise.

 

[LivingWaters7]

LW, Mormons say,“we become Gods”, which has a meaning of, you are of the same nature as God. Polytheistic concepts and ideas, which no Catholic at any time has ever taught or believed.

When I say to you, a Mormon, we do not believe we become Gods, I mean WE DO NOT BECOME GODS. I honestly think Mormons become daft when discussing this subject. So let me type it out again, WE DO NOT BECOME GODS.

If you can hold that thought in your mind, when a Catholic says to a Catholic, we become gods, we are saying we become like God. With Mormons, we just have to be clear because your obsession to be a god overrides everything else you think about.

Every Catholic already understand that we are not God and never will be. It isn’t something that has to be explained, because we aren’t Mormons! No Catholic is walking around thinking they are a god in embryo, because we already understand that we are created and God is not. Therefore, we already know that there is no such thing as a god in embryo, because something that is created IS NOT GOD AND NEVER WILL BE.

It’s only when Mormons come around with this idea in their heads that they are gods, and start trying to make Catholic teaching into something it isn’t, that we even have to clarify FOR YOU. But obviously, Mormons never listen.

This is all very amusing. If you are able to scroll up and read carefully what I have already stated, I already said what you just said (without all of the poisoning of the well, non sequiturs, and ad hominem. Let me repeat it for you:

Firstly, you did not say “we do not become Gods” (capital G). You said “we do not become gods” (lowercase g). This may seem trivial, however many people do make a distinction between what the capitalization implies.

Secondly, you seem to be forcing this idea that I was attempting to overlay Latter-day Saint theology on what the Catechism of the Catholic Church states on the matter. Obviously, as I have mentioned more than once, that is incorrect. Don’t attempt to insult my intelligence, as if I’m a child. It doesn’t work, and it doesn’t help your argument. And it is against the forum rules. Again, I was commenting, specifically, on the words you used. I was not making a comment on the theology behind it, overlaying Latter-day Saint thought on your words, etc. If you assumed that that was what I was doing, it was incorrect.

Thirdly, as I already mentioned, Latter-day Saints believe that we become “like God”. A simple Google search, or a simple LDS.org search, shows as much. We talk many times about becoming “like God”, “like Christ”, etc. We also talk about becoming “gods”, which is the same concept as becoming “like God”. So, when you stated-“The Bible and ECFs teach we become like God. We do not become gods”, for the average reader, it appears that you are making a distinction between becoming “like God” vs becoming “gods” (without commenting on a Latter-day Saint vs Catholic understanding). As I already mentioned, one is not exclusive of the other, whether in Catholic theology or Latter-day Saint theology (which obviously have different viewpoints on the matter, something I need to repeat before you claim I’m saying something I’m not). If anything, what you say above seems to be that you were mixing paradigms in the same sentence.

Fourthly, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and the ECFs, teach that we can “become God”, “become like God”, “become gods”. A frequent statement, at least in the Eastern churches, is that you can become, by grace, what God is by nature. Interesting statement (without imposing any Latter-day Saint thought on it, as always), in light of your above.

Put Catholic teaching into its context, which is CATHOLIC, not Mormon. Read the sections of the CCC before 460, and especially read the footnotes. Read the ECfs in context, all of whom profess the presence of Jesus, who is God, in the Eucharist.

I’ve read the Catechism of the Catholic Church in full (in addition to 1 or 2 other catechisms), prior to my conversion to the Church of Jesus Christ. Putting teachings in their proper context, whether Catholic, Latter-day Saint, Orthodox, Hindu, etc. is something I talk about all the time, since many critics of my beliefs fail to do so. Again, I was not putting the CCC paragraph into a Latter-day Saint context. I wasn’t commenting on the theology behind it. I was commenting on the words used by yourself and your catechism. I already stated this.

The Eucharist is the central teaching of divination. When you deny the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, you have removed Catholic thought from which it is grounded. We, as Catholics, east and west, partake of the divine nature each time we receive God in the Eucharist. This is not a symbol.

I assume you mean “divinization”, not “divination”.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Like all the Sacraments, we believe and understand that they prefigure the life to come. Just as the sacrifices in the OT prefigured the sacrifice of the Son of God. Those Sacrifices being fulfilled in and through Jesus Christ. So the Eucharist prefigures our life with God, what we call heaven. Our partaking of the divine nature in the Eucharist will be fulfilled in and through Jesus Christ. We partake of the divine nature, and so we become like God, but we can never become God because God is God, and we are not. It is that simple. God is above us, transcends us, and is our Creator. The created does not become the Creator and God is not created. God does not become, God is.

We are sons and daughters of God via adoption. We are not Gods, and never will be Gods. Not as you try to enforce into Catholic teaching. It is very accurate to say to you, in your beliefs, that we do not believe we become Gods. Because, we don’t. Anything else said to you is not understood by you. I can only think it is because your desire to be a god is so great, that you can’t give it up in order to understand.

I roll on the floor laughing every time you talk about my “desire to be a god”, my “obsession to be a god”, etc., not only my own alleged desire/obsession, but that of the other Latter-day Saints that post here, and presumably all Latter-day Saints. It is clear that: 1) you obviously don’t know me, and 2) you obviously don’t know Latter-day Saints. We don’t have an “obsession” to be a god. If anything, what we “obsess” over is being Christ-like in this life, and enduring to the end, through God’s grace, to return to the presence of our Savior (through His atonement), to be with Him, and our families, for eternity. Becoming gods, heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, certainly is acknowledged and is a truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, however it certainly isn’t “obsessed” over. Being perfected in Christ, being like God, becoming what Christ is, is beyond our mere human comprehension. I don’t pray daily to become a god. I pray daily to be with my Savior for eternity, with my family. But nice try at poisoning the well. I already understand what the Catholic belief on deification is. The problem seems to be that you’re insisting on claiming that I made an argument that I didn’t. Indeed, I already acknowledged, many posts ago, that perhaps your post should have been clarified “the Bible and ECFs teach we become like God. We do not become gods, in the LDS sense, but we do become gods in the Catholic sense” (and it is clear, from the many posts on CAF about theosis/deification, in addition to what is taught in CCD and other classes these days, that many Catholics actually don’t have an understanding of “becoming gods”, hence why clarification is needed for another reason), so I’m not sure why you continue to go on about it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I roll on the floor laughing every time you talk about my “desire to be a god”, my “obsession to be a god”, etc., not only my own alleged desire/obsession, but that of the other Latter-day Saints that post here, and presumably all Latter-day Saints. It is clear that: 1) you obviously don’t know me, and 2) you obviously don’t know Latter-day Saints. We don’t have an “obsession” to be a god. If anything, what we “obsess” over is being Christ-like in this life, and enduring to the end, through God’s grace, to return to the presence of our Savior (through His atonement), to be with Him, and our families, for eternity. Becoming gods, heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, certainly is acknowledged and is a truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, however it certainly isn’t “obsessed” over. Being perfected in Christ, being like God, becoming what Christ is, is beyond our mere human comprehension. I don’t pray daily to become a god. I pray daily to be with my Savior for eternity, with my family. But nice try at poisoning the well. I already understand what the Catholic belief on deification is. The problem seems to be that you’re insisting on claiming that I made an argument that I didn’t. Indeed, I already acknowledged, many posts ago, that perhaps your post should have been clarified “the Bible and ECFs teach we become like God. We do not become gods, in the LDS sense, but we do become gods in the Catholic sense” (and it is clear, from the many posts on CAF about theosis/deification, in addition to what is taught in CCD and other classes these days, that many Catholics actually don’t have an understanding of “becoming gods”, hence why clarification is needed for another reason), so I’m not sure why you continue to go on about it.

I don’t know of any other people, but Mormons, who come here to tell Catholics that they have studied Catholic teachings in order prop up any sort of idea that they, themselves, are gods or will gods. As far as I can tell, it is the only reason Mormons study Catholic teachings at all. Looking for evidence that you are indeed, a god.

So you’ll have to forgive me if I can’t help but view this as a Mormon obsession.

You should be clear now on why I tell you, a Mormon, that you are not a god and will never be a god. You can’t seem to get past that idea.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This is all very amusing. If you are able to scroll up and read carefully what I have already stated, I already said what you just said (without all of the poisoning of the well, non sequiturs, and ad hominem. Let me repeat it for you:

Firstly, you did not say “we do not become Gods” (capital G). You said “we do not become gods” (lowercase g). This may seem trivial, however many people do make a distinction between what the capitalization implies.

Secondly, you seem to be forcing this idea that I was attempting to overlay Latter-day Saint theology on what the Catechism of the Catholic Church states on the matter. Obviously, as I have mentioned more than once, that is incorrect. Don’t attempt to insult my intelligence, as if I’m a child. It doesn’t work, and it doesn’t help your argument. And it is against the forum rules. Again, I was commenting, specifically, on the words you used. I was not making a comment on the theology behind it, overlaying Latter-day Saint thought on your words, etc. If you assumed that that was what I was doing, it was incorrect.

Thirdly, as I already mentioned, Latter-day Saints believe that we become “like God”. A simple Google search, or a simple LDS.org search, shows as much. We talk many times about becoming “like God”, “like Christ”, etc. We also talk about becoming “gods”, which is the same concept as becoming “like God”. So, when you stated-“The Bible and ECFs teach we become like God. We do not become gods”, for the average reader, it appears that you are making a distinction between becoming “like God” vs becoming “gods” (without commenting on a Latter-day Saint vs Catholic understanding). As I already mentioned, one is not exclusive of the other, whether in Catholic theology or Latter-day Saint theology (which obviously have different viewpoints on the matter, something I need to repeat before you claim I’m saying something I’m not). If anything, what you say above seems to be that you were mixing paradigms in the same sentence.

Fourthly, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and the ECFs, teach that we can “become God”, “become like God”, “become gods”. A frequent statement, at least in the Eastern churches, is that you can become, by grace, what God is by nature. Interesting statement (without imposing any Latter-day Saint thought on it, as always), in light of your above.

I’ve read the Catechism of the Catholic Church in full (in addition to 1 or 2 other catechisms), prior to my conversion to the Church of Jesus Christ. Putting teachings in their proper context, whether Catholic, Latter-day Saint, Orthodox, Hindu, etc. is something I talk about all the time, since many critics of my beliefs fail to do so. Again, I was not putting the CCC paragraph into a Latter-day Saint context. I wasn’t commenting on the theology behind it. I was commenting on the words used by yourself and your catechism. I already stated this.

I assume you mean “divinization”, not “divination”.

I give up.

You just keep on believing that you will be a god. It seems to be your greatest DESIRE.

Have a nice life.

 

[joe370]

I give up.

You just keep on believing that you will be a god. It seems to be your greatest DESIRE.

Have a nice life.

Just a little levity for everyone. I am sure no one believes that they will become the Trinity. LOL…Groundhog Day: LOL…
youtube.com/watch?v=6VF5P7qLaEQ

 

[twopekinguys]

In light of the fact that the LDS church posted one of the largest gains of all Christian denominations in the USA–and that most of the top 25 Christian denominations either posted no stats or negatives in their membership(19 of 25 largest “churches” in one poll) --that is a possibility for most other top 25 Christian denominations in the USA also.

But mormon numbers are being looked at much closer now since the numbers in Brazil were over reported by at least 1 million.

Also, there is a statement from the head of the membership dept (he’s gone now) stating mormonism is losing people at an alarming rate.

If, Brazil over reported by 1 million, how many others did?

Read here and here

If the mormon church was going to change the way things were calculated, don’t you think they should have made that know PRIOR to the report being issued.

Read about losing members here

What amazes me the most is how much back peddling, and damage control the mormon pr department always has to do. Similar to the way they “corrected” Boyd Packer’s hate speech at conference.

Either the PR dept needs fired because of having to do so much damage control, or they need big raises for what they have to put up with.

 

[KathleenGee]

You read the teachings in the CCC leading up to CCC460, it is all about Jesus Christ.

As Catherine of Siena stated, ‘Who Christ is, and who we are not.’

Did Joseph Smith ever profess as did St. Peter, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God’…? ‘On the rock of the faith of Peter, Christ built His Church’…CCC424.

Do you want to follow Joseph Smith and his peeping hat and his spectacles and his Egyptian golden plates instructing how to bury the dead…his angel Moroni…or do you want to listen to the Apostles…

CCC425…The first disciples burned with desire to proclaim Christ…and they invite people of every era to enter into the joy of their communion with Christ:

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life – the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and made manifest to us – that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. And we are writing this that our joy may be complete.’

This is the description of what it means to partake in the divinity of the Holy Trinity. The apostles do not even say they are gods or will become gods.

Likewise, CCC427, In catechesis, "Christ, the Incarnate Word and Son of God is taught-- everything else is taught in reference to Him – and it is Christ alone Who teaches – anyone else teaches to the extent that he is Christ’s spokesman, enabling Christ to teach with his lips …"My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me.’

And in contrast to Joseph Smith, CCC428, Whoever is called ‘to teach Christ’ must first seek "the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus’’; he must suffer ‘the loss of all things’ in order to ‘gain Christ and be found in Him,’ and ‘to know him and the power of his resurrection, and to share his sufferings, becoming like him unto death, that if it possible he may attain the resurrection of the dead.’

To partake in communion of the Holy Trinity, we are already in the presence of God, we are already sharing divinity with God…but as adopted sons and daughters, recipients of Him and His new life given us by His death, resurrection and glorious ascension into heaven…which we likewise partake in Holy Communion here on earth.

How? CCC457 by reconciling us with God through Christ, Savior of the world, by knowing God’s love CCC458 through the Word Made Flesh, through holiness in union with God CCC459, the Word become flesh…'Take my yoke upon you and learn from Me, 'I am the way and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me…at the Transfiguration, the Heavenly Father commands, ‘Listen to Him!’

In CCC459, prior to CCC460, Jesus is the model for the Beatitudes and the norm of the new law: ‘Love one another as I have loved you.’

And to CCC460 by communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God…St. Irenaeus who defeated all the heresies, including gnosticism of his time, and from St. Thomas Aquinas in his talk on the Eucharist, ‘Opusc 57:1-4,’ "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God’. We most directly enter divinity through Holy Communion!!!

Again, original sin broke our relationship with God. And only God could forgive such a sin through and by God Himself…through His Son.

Subsequently, when we become sons of God, we are being restored to Him through sanctifying grace, we enter into this communion of His love, we enter into His holiness that we do not earn or achieve, we become sons of God when we be still and be one with Him and His teachings, learning from Him to sacrifice our selves for life in Him, and we become more like our Master, total love and sacrifice, extending His freedom and giving hope to all around us.

We are creatures and always will be and the early Church Fathers, including St. Justin the Martyr, himself a philosopher, and a great convert who spent much time bring faith in God to those around him, spreading the love and joy of God.

When we sin against God, be it any of the 7 seven sins, we are making ourselves gods against Him.

And when we look here at the teachings of Christ leading up to CCC460, we can see the Church’s testimony that it is truly Christ at work teaching through His Church.

The Church never apostasized and its countless saints and martyrs testify to their great experience of encountering Christ in His Church.

Secondly, the Apostles were most adept, they were called to found Christ’s Church. They made no mistakes. They witnessed Him.

The Apostles had the grace to found Christ’s Church through Peter, not Joseph Smith, who, after his alleged vision of Moroni, even went to a Methodist church to join but was refused.

You either are a Mormon and hold on to all the teachings of Joseph Smith, the practices and honor given to the band who supported him and expounded on his revelations, and his lasting membership with the Masons. For Joseph Smith to call our great history of faith of belief and practice Babylon or abomination is falsehood and the promotion of bigotry.

Or you adhere to the fullness of faith in the universal Catholic Church founded by Christ that has never failed in its teachings and witness, irregardless of times of corruption of certain ecclesiastics…Christ said the chaff would always be with the wheat.

And in these latter trials, they only serve to purify our focus and keep our eyes on Christ – not men.

God is the author of life not the teachings of Joseph Smith who lived 1800 years after Christ’s death and resurrection and glory in heaven.

 

[twopekinguys]

I give up.

You just keep on believing that you will be a god. It seems to be your greatest DESIRE.

Have a nice life.

You finally figured out what I did quite some time ago. All he/she does is harp and harp, even though the answer has been given numerous times.

If people would quit quoting LW, I wouldn’t have to read it.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I give up.

You just keep on believing that you will be a god. It seems to be your greatest DESIRE.

Have a nice life.

There you go again. I will keep on believing that, through Christ’s atoning sacrifice, we may become heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17), that we can be like Christ (1 John 3:2), that we can overcome and sit on Christ’s throne with Him, even as He sits on the Father’s throne with Him (Revelation 3:21). This is something beyond my comprehension, is not something that I think about on a daily basis, and is not something that I obsess about. I do accept it as a scriptural, revealed Truth.

As a Latter-day Saint, my greatest desire, as I mentioned already (it seems as if you insist on continuing to tell me what my desires are, odd), is to return to the presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, to be with my Savior, Jesus Christ, and with my family, for eternity.

Take care, you are in my prayers.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I don’t know of any other people, but Mormons, who come here to tell Catholics that they have studied Catholic teachings in order prop up any sort of idea that they, themselves, are gods or will gods. As far as I can tell, it is the only reason Mormons study Catholic teachings at all. Looking for evidence that you are indeed, a god.

So you’ll have to forgive me if I can’t help but view this as a Mormon obsession.

Firstly, for me personally, I studied Catholic and patristic teachings on deification/theosis prior to my conversion to the Church of Jesus Christ, long before I even considered conversion, before the Church was even a blip on my radar.

Secondly, you are certainly welcome to your assumptions and opinions, however I don’t see that at all. What I do see is that some Latter-day Saints (and I’ve seen Eastern Orthodox and a few Eastern Catholics do the same) studying and presenting this information because it seems that Latin rite Catholics (moreso than those of the Eastern and Oriental churches) are simply not aware of the teachings on deification and theosis.

You should be clear now on why I tell you, a Mormon, that you are not a god and will never be a god. You can’t seem to get past that idea.

It really is amusing that you continue in this vein of erroneous thought and assumptions about myself. Luckily, the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, and the Early Church Fathers all teach that it is possible to become “gods”. Yes, there are clear and important differences in our understandings of that, however it certainly is the case that the teaching of deification, becoming God/gods, is present. You can’t seem to get past that idea, including my acknowledgement of clear differences and the need to not read things into, or conflate, our respective beliefs on the matter.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I give up.

You just keep on believing that you will be a god. It seems to be your greatest DESIRE.

Have a nice life.

There you go again. I will keep on believing that, through Christ’s atoning sacrifice, we may become heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17), that we can be like Christ (1 John 3:2), that we can overcome and sit on Christ’s throne with Him, even as He sits on the Father’s throne with Him (Revelation 3:21). This is something beyond my comprehension, is not something that I think about on a daily basis, and is not something that I obsess about. I do accept it as a scriptural, revealed Truth.

As a Latter-day Saint, my greatest desire, as I mentioned already (it seems as if you insist on continuing to tell me what my desires are, odd), is to return to the presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, to be with my Savior, Jesus Christ, and with my family, for eternity.

Take care, you are in my prayers.

 

[LivingWaters7]

You finally figured out what I did quite some time ago. All he/she does is harp and harp, even though the answer has been given numerous times.

If people would quit quoting LW, I wouldn’t have to read it.

Actually, no answer was given, merely repeated misunderstanding, despite clear statements being made (this is similar to what occurred when you took me off ignore the last time). I repeatedly state something, numerous times, yet someone continues to tell me what I “really” mean. Even if I agree with the point being made (as I did more than once in this thread). It’s very amusing.

 

[KathleenGee]

Tom Nosser…again, your interpretation on Catholicism is mano a mano…man to man. You are not seeing the transcendence of faith…recall our talk on Honorious the pope?

God is not about 1, 2, 3…God first, Christ second, Holy Spirit third…like walking down the street with the man in front, the woman behind, and the children trailing along.

Christ sacrificed His human will to the Father’s will.

The Holy Trinity is set in eternal time, in the state of being, “I AM WHO AM”.

To become a Catholic and to enter into communion, we have to sacrifice ourselves to the point of how we look at things.

If you want to hold on to your way of looking at things, you will never become a Catholic.

 

[lax16]

Thirdly, as I already mentioned, Latter-day Saints believe that we become “like God”. A simple Google search, or a simple LDS.org search, shows as much.

LivingWaters - Okay, I did a not-so-quick- google search and I can see that Mormons have changed their teaching on this idea of men becoming gods vs godlike.

From Mormon 101:
Do Latter-day Saints believe they can become “gods”?
Latter-day Saints believe that God wants us to become like Him. But this teaching is often misrepresented by those who caricature the faith. The Latter-day Saint belief is no different than the biblical teaching, which states, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together” (Romans 8:16-17). Through following Christ’s teachings, Latter-day Saints believe all people can become “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4).

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• Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 333.

“The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself.”

• Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, p. 10

“There is a statement often repeated in the Church, and while it is not in one of the Standard Church Works, it is accepted as church doctrine, and this is: ‘As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.”

• Prophet Brigham Young, 14 July 1861, recorded in The Essential Brigham Young, p.138

“That exalted position was made manifest to me at a very early day. I had a direct revelation of this. It was most perfect and complete. If there ever was a thing revealed to man perfectly, clearly, so that there could be no doubt or dubiety, this was revealed to me, and it came in these words: “As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be.” This may appear to some minds as something very strange and remarkable, but it is in perfect harmony with the teachings of Jesus Christ and with His promises.”

• Patriarch Eldred G. Smith, General Conference, October 1948

“Mormonism be it true or false, holds out to men the greatest inducements that the human mind can grasp. And so it does… It teaches men that they can become divine, that man is God in embryo, that God was once man in mortality, and that the only difference between Gods, angels and men is a difference in education and development. Is such a religion to be sneered at? It teaches that the worlds on high, the stars that glitter in the blue vault of heaven, are kingdoms of God, that they were once earths like this, that they have been redeemed and glorified by the same laws, the same principles that are applied to this planet, and by which it will ascend to a perfected and glorified state. It teaches that these worlds are peopled with human beings, God’s sons and daughters, and that every husband and father, may become an Adam, and every wife and mother an Eve, to some future planet.”

• Apostle George F. Richards, General Conference, April 1913

“The doctrine of the relationship between God and men, as made plain through the word of revelation, is today as it was of old, though in the light of later scripture we are enabled to read the meaning more clearly. It is provided that we, the sons and daughters of God, may advance until we become like unto our Eternal Father and our Eternal Mother, in that we may become perfect in our spheres as they are in theirs. That grand truth, taught by the Prophet Joseph and ridiculed for the time, has now gripped the minds of the thinkers and philosophers of the age… It was crystallized into what we may call an aphorism, by President Lorenzo Snow: ‘As man is God once was; as God is man may be’.”

• Apostle Melvin J. Ballard, General Conference, October 1917

“It is a Mormon truism that is current among us and we all accept it, that as man is God once was and as God is man may become. That does not signify that man will become God. I am sorry to say, and yet it is a truth, that not many men will become what God is, simply because they will not pay the price, because they are not willing to live up to the requirements; and still all men may, if they will, become what God is, but only those who are heirs of the celestial glory shall ever be possible candidates, to become what God is.”

• Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, “Don’t Drop the Ball,” Ensign, November 1994, p. 46

“Perhaps there is something else that we will learn as we perfect our bodies and our spirits in the times to come. You and I—what helpless creatures are we! Such limited power we have, and how little can we control the wind and the waves and the storms! We remember the numerous scriptures which, concentrated in a single line, were said by a former prophet, Lorenzo Snow: “As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.” This is a power available to us as we reach perfection and receive the experience and power to create, to organize, to control native elements. How limited we are now! We have no power to force the grass to grow, the plants to emerge, the seeds to develop.”

• Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, “Our Great Potential,” Ensign, May 1977, p. 49

“After men have got their exaltations and their crowns—have become Gods, even the sons of God—are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles.”